The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Why integration will never work

Re: Why integration will never work

pugnacious_reilly — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:04:20 -0000

rather than throw out some random-ass names and arguing about what is and isn't guitar-centric music, the best way is to sample the sound of a few eras or "scenes" and see what does and doesn't interest you into listening to more.

like, shit, you know: the british invasion and psychedelic aftermath of the mid to late 60s, UK and new york punk and post punk from the late 70s and early 80s, mid 80s indie and hardcore, early 90s "grunge" etc. there are outliers and whatnot, yeah, but music that was created around the same time and place carries a lot of the same touchstones and influences.

pick up some books on the different eras. or just do what i did and listen to your friends.

Re: Why integration will never work

poolside — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:22:46 -0000

TNC, check out Jackson Browne's new album, released this week: Time the Conqueror.

No blaring guitars and lots of left-wing lyrical content. You'll love it. He even has an anti-Bush song about Katrina.

Re: Why integration will never work

Robert M — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:34:49 -0000

I think you are ignorant on this matter. read this book and you should be able to understand why guitar is so important.

Myth of Rock and Roll Robert Bell Robell publishing

Re: Why integration will never work

Mr. Shrimp — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:56:33 -0000

@ PatricktheRogue

You make a good point, but there is something to tradition: in the South and occasionally the North, you had itinerant musicians, mostly black, playing blues, mixing and matching, and definitely "stealing" from one another - it's difficult to know how much was sharing versus stealing. And a few, very few, made some money.

The Stones and Zepp and other bands took songs from published records, recorded them, sometimes transformed and sometimes not, without giving any credit to the musicians who wrote them. And without credit, no royalties. Led Zep had to reinstate Willie Dixon's name on some of their classic songs recently after a lawsuit.

So yes, stealing.

No doubt all this music is the result of mixing. But it's no surprise to me that blacks may have a proprietary sense of "their" music given how much of it has been appropriated without credit.

Re: Why integration will never work

BuddyToledo — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:10:31 -0000

I'm a white guy that hated guitar-driven rock until college. I listened to mostly hip-hop, jazz and blues. Even though I loved blues guitarists like Albert Collins, I immediately dismissed a song as soon as I heard power chords. I thought Parliament was way better than Funkadelic, and got pissed at a George Clinton concert when the horns were only on stage for forty minutes of the four hour show.

"Third-wave" ska changed this all for me. I began liking ska because of the horns and the reggae sounds and early Bob Marley songs. But MU330 and Mustard Plug mixed the horns with heavy guitars. And going to enough ska shows made me feel the power of a power chord.

I don't know if ska is still gonna convert anybody to guitar-heavy rock, since it isn't 1997 anymore. But it might not have been about the ska, but really about the live show. I find it hard to believe that anybody who is moved by music isn't going to be moved by the Hard Lessons or Imaad Wasif in a small bar.

But tastes change too. Now not a week goes by without Maggot Brain or Hardcore Jollies or some other Funkadelic in my cd player, but I can't remember the last time I played any Parliament.

I echo the klezmer comment as well. Golem, Gogol Bordello, Eastern Blok and others are making some funky, danceable, rocking music right now.

Re: Why integration will never work

matter — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:56:26 -0000

This whole idea of "black" and "white" music is so sad, pathetic, and narrow-minded. All music is the result of a massive amount of collaboration, borrowing, sharing, and evolution going back hundreds and thousands of years.

The creators of the music, the instruments, the notation systems, the music theory, the recording gear, the reproduction systems, and all the other bits and pieces used to create and recreate music come from so many different ethnic groups that to "assign" them such rigid labels strikes me as wholly ridiculous.

Every musical composition depends on hundreds or thousands that came before it. The chain of creation goes back so far and in so many different directions that all this color-assignment is intellectually bankrupt.

Re: Why integration will never work

bulaboy — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:23:21 -0000

Ok, I'm a grandpa who grew up on Elvis in the fifties, loved Detroit radio late at night when the waves came in over Lake Erie, and now more and more for me it is not about the ethnicity but about the song. I want songs. White? How about Randy Newman, Leonard Cohen? Something to really listen to. Stories, characters, not the whiney white-boy bullshit of post-Seattle crows and whatever, yakking about their jerk-off little lives, but really engaging stories which stretch me and satisfy. Give it a listen: maybe start with Randy's Sail Away (really a literary masterpiece, along with Little Criminals) and Leonard's I'm Your Man, and the incredible The Future.

We need to integrate. We need to get over ourselves and history -- no excuses, just what it is.

Re: Why integration will never work

SmokeyJoe — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:45:22 -0000

If your trying introduce someone to "white music", why not turn them onto a black dude who plays white-sounding music and then see where that takes them. Expose them to a gateway artist.

I'm thinking of Ben Harper. He is a guitarist and most of his music features his abilities, but I would not call it "blaring"... Of course I've been listening to "white music" all my life, so my perspective might be off.

Re: Why integration will never work

Jim — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:13:30 -0000

Sorn, it's an English hymn, as English as a suet pudding. Just like the "composer". It's probably a folk tune like "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say" (Dives and Lazarus) and a whole slough of others from that period. That was a really active time for English hymnody - the Methodists were in full vigor - and they used lots of folk tunes and reworked them, because that's the music their huge new congregations knew. There are probably several local variants of that tune, that fade into other tunes.

Re: Why integration will never work

Sorn — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:19:21 -0000

Jim. That was my understanding of the origins of the song Amazing Grace. Does anyone know the history of the song?

Re: Why integration will never work

Jim — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:06:52 -0000

"It manages to somehow toss country, electronic, and grunge in the same bag and dismiss it as "some white shit."

...and Baroque, Classical, the Romantics, the Moderns, grand opera,.......

Enya? You mean Eithne, of Clannad. That's a whole separate classical tradition. And indeed, it is a little too refined for crude Saxon ears, so you really can't be blamed for your inability to appreciate it.

"But Negroes think they invented music, thus music that they don't see as there own is "white music," an exception, viewed skeptically and often derisively."

True, I once heard someone insist, insist, that "Amazing Grace" was actually an African tune that the writer heard while skippering a slave ship. And she had no excuse; she was a trained musician.

Re: Why integration will never work

Nayagan — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:51:09 -0000

forgot to add but:

1. Robert Randolph and The Family Band (go to early material and archive.org shows)

2. Pnuma Trio

3. DJ Williams Projekt

Re: Why integration will never work

Thomas R — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 05:21:41 -0000

There might be some music that's pretty well "white", in a way, because of demographics. For example

Mormon music from before 1970.

New England "roots music" whatever that might contain.

The "roots music" of Scandinavia, except maybe Finland which might be more Asian influenced.

Renaissance music (Asian influences I don't think occur as much as they would in the classical era)

Re: Why integration will never work

Rich — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:39:44 -0000

Cube Guys.

Half of beatport.com is white guys with no guitars.

Re: Why integration will never work

Charles — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:21:56 -0000

I'm a black guy that is mostly into 'white music', whatever that means. But if you want to hear good bass in a post punk context, like the type of bass you can dance to and can rumble through the floor, listen to some early Public Image Limited-the first two albums only-it's like dub reggae meets electronic music meets pure noise-it's the band that Johnny Rotten formed after the Sex Pistols fell apart. Every song is driven by insane basslines-the bass player is a white guy from the East End of London with the stage name Jah Wobble, which sums up his bass style perfectly. The guitars are there and are loud, but the rhythms are so up front that you never notice the guitars that much.

And I know tons of black people that worship Joni Mitchell and Kate Bush-you don't get whiter than them and they are brilliant.

I feel more and more that hip hop and R&B (I hate that term but I can't think of another one)aren't very imaginative and fun like they used to be in the late eighties/early nineties-so I have happily gone somewhere else to find interesting stuff.

Re: Why integration will never work

Thomas R — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:14:03 -0000

It might depend on what's wanted with "white music." I think a great deal of "white" folk-rock or pop doesn't use electric guitars. Although if you don't want any guitars, of any kind, that might be more difficult. Likewise if you want "white rock" without electric guitars it might be harder.

Judging by the post I'm going to assume acoustic guitars are okay unless someone can point me to something saying they aren't.

Rock/Alt-rock (Just any I can find that don't use electric guitars much or at all)

Tori Amos - There are occasional electric guitars, I think, but it's usually not central. At least not in the earlier albums.

Fiona Apple

Five for Fighting

Ben Folds

The Fray

Hmm my minds blanking.

Pop & Folk-rock

Vanessa Carlton

Judy Collins

Julee Cruise

Donovan

Nick Drake

Jewel

Gordon Lightfoot

Sarah MacLachlan

Don McLean

Van Morrison

Bonnie Raitt (I don't think she plays electric)

The Rascals (I don't think they were electric)

Re: Why integration will never work

PatricktheRogue — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:36:12 -0000

As all discussions about music devolve this one has as well, mostly because the old axiom is true, there is no accounting for taste. What I like, you might not, what you like I might not. That is just the way it is. I have found though, that if a particular artist is thought to be "the best" at whatever he/she does, giving it a an opne minded chance usually pays great dividends, from Ray Charles to Bach to Johnny Cash, there are deep wells to taste... and savor.

However, please allow me to throw some heretical ideas into the mix here. I believe, like Ayn Rand, that simply because you might be considered part of a race or group doesn't mean the feats of individuals within that group are any more your birthright than they are mine. So what if Marvin Gaye was black, if you can't sing like Marvin Gaye, then you get no credit. To paraphrase Ms. Rand: It is racism to ascribe moral, social or political significance to a man's genetic lineage, to judge a man, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Don't get me wrong, I am no Objectivist, but I do appreciate her clear-headed attack on racist notions, whatever else she got wrong. This discussion reminds me of her warning not to boast about your ancestor's or your tribes achievements, "as if the achievements of one man could rub off on the mediocrity of another." In other words, if you wanna feel good about who you are, go out and do something instead of sitting around talking what a badass your daddy was or how someone who might be related to you built the pyramids or first sailed around the world. If you built a pyrmamd or a boat, great, if you didn't, you don't get any glory from those who did.

Now, as a musician, I suggest all forms of music belong to all men and women. This idea that Led Zeppelin or the Rolling Stones "stole" the blues chords and songs they were playing is only viable if you also indict every black blues player who heard a song from another black guitarist that he liked and played it. Did Wynton Marsalis "steal" that Bach stuff he plays? In this paradigm there can be no sharing of music that is not "stealing," except the racist underpinnings of this idea be exposed. Then black musicians can only play "black" music and white musicians play "white" music etc. And then we would have to fire Wynton Marsalis and restrict him to only playing jazz, and apparently only certain kinds of jazz, since other kinds are becoming "white." This is so stupid the whole notion always makes me angry. I am living in Japan and just saw a Japanese duo playing blues last night. I guess I should have gone on stage and taken their instruments until they were clear that they could play only Japanese traditionals. I can't object to this idea enough that there is "white" music or "black" music.

In fact, the fellow that noted that blues did not arrive formed and whole from Africa is absolutely right. The blues (minor) chord structure was infused with the English/Irish ballad form and produced what we know as the modern song structure. This kind of mixing is common and more recent example can be seen in Tejano music, which comes from the ranges of Texas, where the German immigrants had the accordians and polkas and the caballeros brought their Flamenco guitars and they mixed them. The result is neither polka nor flamenco, but something completly new. Music is a complete mix-up and no one idea is traceable whole and entire to a particular author. Music is about the blending of different sounds and notes to form a coherent whole, and all forms should be accepted and played or blended by whomever has the notion to, race or origin be damned.

...Except for that Bjork shit - that's too damn white. ;)

Re: Why integration will never work

Shawn — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:24:33 -0000

Steve Earle deserves a mention here. Not only is he a "alt country" singer but he also had a role on the Wire! Talk about synergy!

Re: Why integration will never work

Rasp — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:23:47 -0000

Stringed instruments are far too sophisticated for the african mind to comprehend, simple percussion instruments (jungle drums and bongos) are more their speed.

Re: Why integration will never work

Alston R. McHenry — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:35:13 -0000

Joni Mitchell's "Court and Spark", "The Hissing of Summer Lawns", and "Hejira".

Brian Auger's Oblivion Express is pretty damn cool, too.

Traffic is also a great band to check out.

Needless to say, I'm in my fifties.

Re: Why integration will never work

Duncan Basson — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:00:48 -0000

Mr. Coates, it is time for you to dip into the ultra-white: classical music. Quite frankly, the last fifty years of whiny white boys playing guitar are a low point in the greater history of white folks making music. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven- these are the real musical achievers. And a thousand years from now, these are the names that will be remembered.

Re: Why integration will never work

Sorn — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:57:29 -0000

brucds

Thanks for the info I will definately check out stoney edwards.

I also have to give a bump to paul simon's graceland album.

Re: Why integration will never work

Loneoak — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:56:03 -0000

If you want a band that doesn't emphasize guitars, you have to get some Beirut. Basically, the lead singer dropped out of high school to go hang out with gypsies for a couple years, and because of a hand injury he can't play guitar (usually he plays a ukulele instead). The instrumentation and musicianship is wonderful, full of strings, horns, and accordion. One could call it plaintive indy neo-Balkan. Don't let the hipster vibe get in the way and you could love it.

Re: Why integration will never work

The Golux — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:18:41 -0000

Little Feat. Guitars, but generally not screaming. Masters of groove.

Lyle Lovett. Great songwriting with wit, guitars always tastefully done.

The Band, especially "The Band": the greatest Americana record of all time, although it predates the term.

Re: Why integration will never work

ding — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:12:16 -0000

ELO? No blaring guitars that I can remember. But, oh, the roller skating goodness.