The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Where It All Leaves Us

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

shurufu — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:16:38 -0000

I think folks should read Skip Gates' essay in the New Yorker published on the 23rd of October, 1995-'Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Black Man'. The essay came out in the immediate aftermath of the O.J acquittal and Prof. Gates uses that as a starting point to discuss 'black america's' contentious relationship with the criminal justice system in their country. It is compelling.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Tapia — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:27:50 -0000

What the Gates case illustrates is not racial prejudice, but abuse of power. The police forces in the U.S. are generally considered close to the worst among Western democracies when it comes to restraint in the use of force and in due respect for their employers, the tax-paying citizens. U.S. police are trained to demand submission at all times, even when clearly unjustified as in the Gates incident, and to arbitrarily apply the use of force, including deadly force, to achieve compliance for such demands of submission. This “philosophy” is no different from that used by the police in many dictatorships.

Even more troubling than the generally undemocratic and abusive mentality and attitudes of the U.S. police is their acceptance by a significant segment of this country’s population. This may be an indication of a heavy democratic deficit in U.S. culture. The U.S. population who accept as natural a dictatorial police force may be the same who support creationism and reject evolution, or who have decided to believe that Saddam Hussein ordered the 9/11 attacks. All these are traits that distinguish us from the rest of Western civilizations.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

rogerm — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:35:20 -0000

Frankie D

"when you are right - and he was right, initially, you don't back down.

period"

I'll give you that. Coleman Young was no shrinking violet. Also, during his reign, garbage got picked up and streetlights worked.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

peephraim — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 04:59:33 -0000

There a good sides to this event. It re-assures us that America is still a very racist place. That Obama is bold and humble enough and can apologize, unlike Bush who does not apologize. That Obama is smart enough to put out an uproar, even with a beer, put people together and carry them along to get to his goals, and that while Barack Obama in the White House, white cops will be more careful what they do to people of color. Ask yourself, if Gates was wrong, why were the charges against him dropped. That explains it. It wasn't because the police were trying to defuse the situation. It was because Gates had done nothing illegal.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

peephraim — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 04:49:38 -0000

Did I hear you say..." his job is not to fix race relations- his job is to fix the economy and health care.? Whose job is it? It is yours?

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

qzy — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:09:29 -0000

"When we think about the cops, it's scary, on one level, to conclude that a cop can basically arrest you on a whim. It's scarier still to think that this is what Americans want, that this country is as we've made it."

And, if your rights were violated, you can hire a lawyer. It's not really that scary. Well, I guess it is scary to teenagers.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Brixtonville — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:42:38 -0000

Right, you didn't watch him pander on Logo or listen to him on Air America. I don't mean that as any sort of attack; I mean that as an observation based on you saying you never heard him say any of those things.

I'm not blaming Prop 8 on him. I'm saying it's pretty obvious how much of a vote-mobilizing effect he had on every constituency. He could have lifted one literal finger, had Axelrod dispatch a squad of interns to twitter something, and things would have changed. Tell me I'm wrong.

Also, for what it's worth he dropped his energy agenda as soon as the price of oil went down. Once he was elected he stopped needing our votes and stopped pandering to us as an audience.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Doctor Cleveland — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:18:30 -0000

Come on Dave.

No cop can shoot someone because they might have a gun, somewhere. Still less can you kill someone because they might hypothetically get your gun.

Neither can you kill someone because they might do something awful in the future. You cannot kill someone for a hypothetical.

That is why I said clear and present danger, which is the standard, and which henqiguai's source cites as "imminent." Clear and present are words with real meanings, not just bombast for the titles of airport novels. "Clear" means clear, Dave. As in, a weapon you can see. A danger that is real, obvious, in the here and now. "Present" means NOW, in real time, right here. Not "he might have a gun hidden in the car" or "he might return with a weapon later" or "Who knows what revenge he may take once he grows to a man?" Now. A weapon in sight now. That is the standard. The absolute and universal standard for police training.

If someone flashes a pistol, a cop should absolutely draw, and absolutely command the person with the gun to drop it. Identifying oneself as police is a necessary part of that command.

But the cop should never have drawn without seeing a lethal weapon in play. Police are trained specifically never to draw their weapons unless the danger is imminent. Drawing a gun never calms the situation down. It creates danger.

Killing someone who is not a threat is, in fact, murder. I chose these words very deliberately. If you don't think it's murder to kill an unarmed man, that's on you.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

frankie d — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:57:21 -0000

@rogerm,

no doubt that is true.

but it had as much to do with forces beyond his control that are more complex than can be gotten into here.

my simple point was that back in 1973, when cops were literally murdering black men in the streets under the crazy STRESS program, coleman young stood up and said, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take this anymore. he ran on a platform to disband STRESS, which he did upon winning election.

i was not referring to his long and complex history as mayor.

i specifically talked about his leadership during a time period when exactly this same issue - police harassment and profiling - was front and center.

and while obama is certainly faced with a different electorate and dynamics, some matters are universal. when you are right - and he was right, initially, you don't back down.

period.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

frankie d — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:45:49 -0000

this is what gates has posted:

"It was very kind of the President to phone me today. Vernon Jordan is absolutely correct: my unfortunate experience will only have a larger meaning if we can all use this to diminish racial profiling and to enhance fairness and equity in the criminal justice system for poor people and for people of color.

And to that end, I look forward to studying the history of racial profiling in a new documentary for PBS. I told the President that my principal regret was that all of the attention paid to his deeply supportive remarks during his press conference had distracted attention from his health care initiative. I am pleased that he, too, is eager to use my experience as a teaching moment, and if meeting Sgt. [James] Crowley for a beer with the President will further that end, then I would be happy to oblige.

After all, I first proposed that Sgt. Crowley and I meet as early as last Monday. If my experience leads to the lessening of the occurrence of racial profiling, then I would find that enormously gratifying. Because, in the end, this is not about me at all; it is about the creation of a society in which 'equal justice before law' is a lived reality."

http://www.theroot.com/views/gates-says-yes-beer-crowley

sounds a lot like what i've advocated.

unfortunately, it doesn't sound anything like what obama is intending to do.

other than the having a beer part.

what appears to be on the horizon is this:

gates and crowley meet for a beer at the white house.

they come out, afterwards for a joshing, grinning photo op.

they all make nice, friendly statements about how this one little misunderstanding has been resolved, helped along by obama's penchant for reaching out.

the issue disappears.

except for interesting little posts that gates puts up over at the root, which hardly get any attention.

and the president will have thankfully - from his perspective - avoided a thorny political issue.

if i'm wrong, i will be the first to acknowledge that fact. but i'd bet just about anything on the scenario just imagined.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

rogerm — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:39:50 -0000

Coleman Young? Seriously? He won some battles but lost the war.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

frankie d — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:29:05 -0000

don't know my own history?

such a presumption is laughable.

i watched the dogs being sicked on black protesters in my dad's home state of alabama in real time.

i watched my mom cry her eyes out the night martin luther king was killed.

i watched tanks roll down the streets of my hometown, detroit, while snipers sat on the tallest apartment buildings in my neighborhood and i was scared to death as we had to lie on the floor and away from the windows to avoid getting shot during a riot whose epicenter was 8 blocks from my home near the lodge freeway.

i was one of those young black kids who was stopped and arrested by the "big four", roving gangs of cops who terrorized black folks in detroit in the early '70's, killing almost 30 men in a couple of years span, abusing their power so greatly that a real leader, coleman young, was swept into office as a backlash to their outrageous and murderous conduct.

not know my history?

hardly.

and fortunately, i've seen real leaders in action, and what obama presents is a far cry from real leadership.

he's bill clinton, II, calculating every move in order to horde his political capital.

(on a somewhat tangential note, i'll wager right now that michelle obama will follow hillary's lead and enter political life after barack leaves office. and obama will follow bill's lead and make certain that he doesn't spend his political capital as he leaves office, so that michelle can benefit. as hillary did.)

what could obama have done?

easy...

he could have confronted the issue head on.

for instance, he could have assembled a group of the most prominent african-american men in america and had a roundtable discussion that focused on the harassment they've received at the hands of police over the years, and demand that each and every jurisdiction in the country address the issue with new policies and oversight.

shed light on the issue, illuminate it, and propose solutions, in a positive, constructive way.

as i've posted here before, i'd bet that not only obama, but every prominent african-american of note has suffered his own version of what happened to gates.

instead of backing down to one cop and one police union for the sake of saving capital for some future fight that never seems to materialize, he could confront the issue at hand and truly address a problem that just about every african-american deals with or has dealt with.

that would be true leadership.

and it would be leadership consistent with the best leadership in our history.

what obama said initially was measured and correct. instead of hedging and folding when confronted, he should have taken the opportunity to try to address a real problem.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Marcos El Malo — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:11:49 -0000

I think you mean Cambridge, Mass., not DC. , but thank you for confirming.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

henqiguai — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:57:49 -0000

re: Silke July 25, 2009 7:02 AM

...and remember policeman or the likes was not on the list of desirable jobs Obama spoke about at the NAACP, neither did he mention anything you need your hands for like carpenter or tailor or plumber - people in these professions tend to notice that they are not among the desirables but how would they speak out about it without seeming to be querulous?

Gracious, Silke, Mr. Obama also didn't mention QA engineers, biostatisticians, ornithologists, entymologists,... And, darn it, you really don't want to be faced with a ragtag mob of querulous and agitated primary school librarians ! Run with the concept of illustrative examples in a time constrained venue, eh ?

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Bronx Bomber — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:53:12 -0000

The discussion that needs to be had here is why we continually give police and our armed forces passes when they screw up in areas they ARE COMPENSATED FOR AND TRAINED to be proficient at. These aren't regular guys scooped off the street and thrown in an environment they've never been trained to handle. They spend years in training classes(the cop actually ran one!!!!) designed to teach you just how to act in these scenarios. This goes for local cops and military personnel.

This is NEVER raised in any of these issues regarding police/military whether it's Abner Louima, Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell or even something non deadly like this confrontation. We continually give these guys free passes under the "it's a stressful job" excuse. They need to be held to a higher level of accountability in these scenarios, not only because of their compensated positions, but also because as defenders of the peace they must be held to a higher standard. You let off 2 full clips of bullets at someone not even firing back at you and already on the ground or you arrest someone for calling you an a-hole? I'm sorry, you just demonstrated the $$ spent on your training was a waste and quote possibly you're in the wrong line of work.

Wish there was some discussion on this topic vs the racial angles of this incident.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

henqiguai — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:43:00 -0000

re: Marcos El Malo (Replying to: Doctor Cleveland) July 24, 2009 6:19 PM

Come on, Dave. The weapon didn't come into play until the undercover police officer pulled it out. And if he had police training, he'd know that you don't pull a weapon on someone unless you are ready to use it.

Unless NYC police standards are radically different from DC's, that gun should not have come out at all, unless the officer felt in imminent danger of his life or was facing an assailant otherwise presenting a major threat. At least, those were the constraints I was under functioning as armed security, with Metro police oversight, in DC (granted, that was a few decades back...)

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

swats — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:07:30 -0000

I have found that people desire/need respect. Certainly a man that has become a professor at Harvard deserves respect, but no more than a police officer who seeks to keep a community safe. Both are men with strengths and weaknesses. Because a man is a professor, that in no removes his responsibility as a part of humanity to extend respect. What I find disturbing is the ability some have to show respect to those they agree with while showing contempt for those they do not agree with--the term 'cop' is disrespectful. Can police officers abuse their authority--sure. Can citizen's misuse their 'rights'--sure. However, until there is respect on both sides, there will be no communication, no progress, no hope of becoming better.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Sime — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:00:32 -0000

Anyway, I changed my mind after reading your posts concerning the police report. I gave Crowley the benefit of the doubt, but your trap-theory made sense and is well founded in the facts.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

Silke — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:02:01 -0000

"Evidently Obama, Crowley and Gates are talking about getting a beer together. I hope they have a grand old time"

... that Crowley will have a grand old time of it I doubt very much

- he will leave feeling honoured of course but I see no way that he will not also feel patronized

- I do not believe in being a classless society possible and remember policeman or the likes was not on the list of desirable jobs Obama spoke about at the NAACP, neither did he mention anything you need your hands for like carpenter or tailor or plumber - people in these professions tend to notice that they are not among the desirables but how would they speak out about it without seeming to be querulous?

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

adin — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:03:23 -0000

No, I don't think West Point had anything to do with the leadership style of McClellan v. Grant. McC was very good at training, staffing and organizing an army. That was his great accomplishment, and to him sending his troops into battle, destroyed his investment in the creation of a great army. Of course, his soldiers adored him for keeping them out of battle. Some generals are good at raising and training an army, others are good at fighting the enemy. Grant, Sherman and Sheridan fell into the latter category. Also, McC personal beliefs led him to be a lukewarm supporter of the Union cause, and Lincoln's evolving sense of slavery and emancipation. McC ran against Lincoln in 1864 as an anti-war Democrat, and lost. Certainly an 'iffy' guy I'd want fighting for the Union. He also had a grandiose perception of himself, which didn't help him with his fellow generals or Lincoln.

If I recall correctly, any battlefield 'victories' McC may have been given credit for were few and small in scale.

After McC lost his command, and the generals who understood what the goals of the war had to be took over, everything changed.

"A Landscape Turned Red" by Stephan Sears, is about the best book out there on Antietam. McC leadership was inept, cowardly and caused unimaginable carnage. Instead of being relieved of command, he should have been tossed out of the army at the very least.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

gdab55 — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:49:20 -0000

Actually Komodos can reach lengths of over 9 feet and their saliva contains venom which has led to the death of at least one person recently (see wikipedia). With that out of the way, well said TNC, as ever. That is the matter in a nutshell...the policing practised in the USA occurs because of the acquiescence of much of the population.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

atlantapril — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:05:50 -0000

@ Brixtonville:

When he was campaigning, Obama said he would address health care, education and energy in his first year as president. I never heard him say he would address benefits for domestic partnerships.

Also, the Prop 8 vote cannot be laid at Obama's feet. Next time the gay leadership in California has to be more strategic about outreach and messaging to ALL communities.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

adin — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:58:59 -0000

frankie d,

Read what CitizenE wrote. It's true. Don't trash Obama when you don't know your own history, unless you are 12. If you are 12, you get a pass. But, if you are over 20, it's all on you.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

soral — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:30:26 -0000

And I realize that racism is a larger problem precisely because it is not limited to those who *knowingly* recognize their own biases.

Re: Where It All Leaves Us

soral — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:29:37 -0000

You know, this post really ignores the hordes of white people who are and have been actively, maliciously, knowingly racist. Sorry, racists! Want to give credit where credit is due. I still believe that seeing government actions as direct manifestations of popular will is to oversimplify.