The Atlantic - Latest Comments in When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Anuncie — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:15:19 -0000

Thanks for this article, very interesting, i like this.
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Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Mark — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:48:08 -0000

Heteronormative is a great word. I can't accept the notion that for gay marriage to exist, gay couples have to be the same as straight couples. My girlfriend is from CT - she claims that gay marriage is a non-issue there because most married gay couples in CT are no different from the straight couples next door. And she also claims that after also living in New York, Toronto and now San Francisco (but never in the suburbs), I have a skewed view of gay people's lives.

I think I am essentially arguing against the Andrew Sullivan line ("virtually normal") and in favor of "queerness"...

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Acromion — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:49:42 -0000

I second that Eduardo. 10 years ago when I first came out the only gay person I remember on TV was Matthew Shepard. We have come a long way since then and I believe things can only get better.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:49:11 -0000

Incidentally, Kaplan was running at-large, not district.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

LCrawfty — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:40:53 -0000

I`m very hopeful I just think at times it can be very difficult to discuss prejudice and bring about change in communities where either people A. do not want to think of themselves as prejudiced or B. Believe they are within the limits of acceptable behavior despite their prejudice. It's very similar to the situation that exists with race relations in Massachusetts and Boston. Boston has a checkered past when it comes to race relations but perceptions of equality and justice dating back to the Revolution make it very difficult to discuss racial tension at all.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:38:47 -0000

Rebecca Kaplan - just got elected last November.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Eduardo — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:09:12 -0000

Oh LCrawfty ... you know what puts me in a super-cheerful mode? Remembering how hard things were 20, 15, even 10 years ago and how comparatively easier we have it today. It is just un-be-liv-able. Not to say that it will be easy that marriage equality comes to GA in the next 10, 15 years, but we have seen weirder things. Imagine if 10, 15 years ago someone would tell you that almost all of New England + Iowa would have marriage equality. Plus Canada and the Netherlands South Africa and oh boy, Spain that old country full of machos machos.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

deva — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:06:13 -0000

Yes, but the Southern dandy is not identified with homosexuality, but instead a certain flamboyant Victorian-era derived style. Remember Andre 3000 may rock an ascot, but he doesn't get any shot about it because he's also Erykah Badu's baby daddy. The South is old fashioned that way -- like pre the creation of the category homosexual old-fashioned. You can be a fop, you can even diddle a boy, so long as you claim you were drunk when you did it and go home to your wife. Oscar Wilde style.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

LCrawfty — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:57:02 -0000

I meant to say the homophobia was expressed very politely. It was almost more infuriating to watch people act woefully ignorant of the fact that these two men were a committed couple, ignore them, or brush them off than to see them have a slur yelled in their faces.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

LCrawfty — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:52:18 -0000

One of the things I worry about in your statement is this idea that gay people have to be better than straight people; smarter, nicer, cleaner, more talented, for straight people to accept them. Like sometimes gay people are just fundamentally different personality wise than straight people and it often has to do a lot with the experience of repression. I really appreciate your supportive statements but to try to paint all gay couples as boring and heteronormative just isn't accurate.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

LCrawfty — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:49:06 -0000

Quick Question: Did anyone see the episode of "True Life", "I`m in an Interracial Relationship"? It featured two men in Baton Rouge, one was black the other white. After I got over the initial surprise of seeing a dude who looks like a hot gay version of Larry the Cable Guy making out with a large, bald, black guy, I was really struck by just how everyone else expressed their homophobia towards the couple. The guys were trying to rent an apartment together and essentially they would call real estate agents, then when it came to the question of who would be living there and how many bedrooms, and the real estate agent would brush them off with a "sorry honey we dont have anything available right now, thank you." Can you really expect southern states to grant marriage licenses to a couple that can't even be shown an apartment together?

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Juba — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:43:23 -0000

The effeminate Southern man is as much a cultural staple as college football and BBQ pork.

Absolutely. Andre 3000 rocking an ascot had a long storied precedent among a lot of Southern gentlemen, to give an example.

But perhaps this is why so many Southerners are insecure about the issue?

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

LRD — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:15:05 -0000

GA and gay rights? It would be only used as a campaign hatred issue to insure higher white turnout.

However, it seems with the demographic shifts ( Gwinnett hispanic, Cobb has more minorites than ever before, Dekalb liberal etc..) that the attitude will change.. but it will take many years.

One thing though, with high gay population in ATL, Decatur etc. people who initially would be against gay rights/marriage more than likely have a friend or family member that is gay. That is where the change starts.. as how can you descriminate then against the ones you love?

One question I guess to ask.. is when would the churches such as the AME Church on Memorial, or even Ebenezer talk for rights for all instead of hatred towards gays?

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

MikeCee — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:02:36 -0000

Explains the Katrina response no?

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Michael E. Sullivan — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:01:59 -0000

I live in New Haven, CT. Many of the leaders of the gay rights movement here are African American. This isn't surprising given that the city itself is very close to majority african american. In general gay rights enjoy robust support in the city, more so than in the predominantly white suburbs. It would be hard for me to say whether more african americans vs. caucasians in the whole area are friendly to strong LGBT rights (full marriage/adoption equality and anti-discrimination laws), but if I had to pick, I'd say african americans are more so.

I have a similar experience within a wider context in my church (United Methodist). While the global church is still somewhat homophobic in doctrine, a fair number of churches in the New York annual conference are reconciling congregations (meaning we want the church to be fully open and affirming to LGBT people, and act that way ourselves to the extent that UMC polity allows). The New York annnual conference (the most important regional political unit of the church) is much more LGBT friendly than the church as a whole, and petitions every general conference on the issue to adopt a doctrine similar to the UCC. With the exception of a few churches serving African immigrant communities, most of the (many) predominantly African American congregations support this (as do most congregations in the conference). I've been a delegate or observer at many annual conferences when these petitions are debated, and there are just as many white anti-gay speakers as black if not more.

I just don't see a big difference between blacks and whites when it comes to gay rights on the whole. I think there may be some avaialability bias for people who think there is. White New Havenites are probably more LGBT friendly on average than the rest of the population of the city. But that's just the white folks who live in New Haven, who are generally a much more progressive bunch than those who live outside the city. You don't get that split in African American or immigrant populations, who are close to a majority in New Haven proper, but a rarity in the wealthier or more rural suburbs (where one is much more likely to find strong anti-gay sentiment than among any population in the city). African Americans in New Haven represent a pretty broad cross section of the African American population in the state in general, not a particularly liberal slice of it.

Anyway, I suspect that any city with an active gay community and a majority or near majority black population would look a lot like DC in this regard, and I can confirm that New Haven (and similarly Hartford) do.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

MikeCee — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:01:02 -0000

I agree with the two Georgias comment to a degree. Yes, outside of the Atlanta perimeter Georgia is stuck in the 60s when it comes to race relations and civil rights and dentistry. There are still segregated H.S. proms in Georgia.

BUT, let's not start calling ATL progressive by any stretch definition. This is still a highly self-segregated city that votes red down the line come election day and helps to fund Stone Mountain with its Fathers of the Confederacy Light Show. But, I'm with you, I live here, a NY Yankee in a mixed marriage with latino children, I continue to hope but your use of "so close" might be a tad overly optimistic. :P

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

rikyrah — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:26:28 -0000

Well, I'm glad to hear this, because you knew the lack of Black faces from the Gay community is what did in Prop 8 in the Black community.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Cornet Mustich — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:23:32 -0000

PS.

The 2 women who came to CT to wed were from DC, and one of them is an attorney with Bois, Schiller and Flexner, the DC law firm that's challenging the Prop 8 ruling in CA.

Attornys Bois and Olson are working on the case and columnist Clarence Page had an interesting article about them recently.

Good luck Atlanta, and Georgia.

Joe Mustich, JP

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

uspoverty — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:21:29 -0000

New Orleans is also majority black (though less so since Katrina) and socially liberal.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Cornet Mustich — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:15:57 -0000

Good article. It's time America.

I recently officiated for 2 young women who came to CT to wed, and they brought their families too. Congratulations!

And more couples are coming to CT this summer from CA, VA, LA, and NY because they aren't allowed to wed in their own home states just yet...

And kudos to New England (sans RI) and Iowa too for supporting marriage equality and fairness.

Cheers, Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace,

Washington, Connecticut

http://justicesofthepeace.blogspot.com

And for the marriage foes, please find something else to do with your time, money and talent, because life's too short. Find love.

And kudos to civil marriage.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Borton — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:11:48 -0000

Juba, very true. I'd add Savannah and Macon. And it's also wrong to write off the citizenry of most of the state. Most have no idea what their legislators do. My guess is that a poor chicken or peanut farmer doesn't really care what two dudes in ATL do on the weekend. But there's something weird about pols and their proclivity for pushing their noses into other people's junk and raising a ruckus. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you're black or white, or gay or straight. We're all just trying to get along. If we can establish a culture of evidence and show folks how vibrant (culturally and financially) some of our in-town communities are, I think it would go a long way to turning things around.

Also, many of our smaller rural communities would be perfect for gay settlement. Lots of funky antique stores, creepy gothic atmosphere, and a serious need for economic revitalization and culture. Everyone has a dandy uncle or two down here anyway - it's hard for me to see what the big deal is. The effeminate Southern man is as much a cultural staple as college football and BBQ pork.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

MAJeff — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:04:04 -0000

No. I mean that the percentage of people of color in same-sex couples is higher than the percentage of people of color in different-sex marriages. There is only individual-level data. So, we might surmise that there are higher levels of intraracial coupling among same-sex couples of color than among married couples, or we might surmise that there are higher percentages of interracial couples, it's hard to tell directly from the data (there aren't couple-level data dealing with racial/ethnic composition). I'd guess the latter, to be honest.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Juba — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:57:47 -0000

There are two Georgias, Atlanta and the rest.

I'd add Athens to that as well. And maybe a few little towns like Eatonton here and there.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Jamilah — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:52:28 -0000

All true but who is the openly gay city council member? Is it Brunner or Nadel?

I didn't know this.

Re: When Gay Marriage Turns Black

Borton — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:51:23 -0000

Atlanta can't even secure funding for MARTA, how will the city ever manage gay rights? DeKalb Co, the largest/most populous county in GA, has been systematically undermined in the state legislature for years. Most recently, conservative legislators in more rural parts of the state assisted a wealthy enclave within DeKalb to secede from the county. They did this to weaken the county's tax base and dilute its progressive clout. Folks in the hinterland hate us - hence the votes in the state legislature to weaken mass transit, weaken the votes of minorities thru voter ID laws, etc. I would say that it's best to write GA off and move along, but it's not. In 2008 Saxby Chambliss was forced into a run-off on the strength of the Obama vote. Each year more moderate transplants move to Atlanta. There are two Georgias, Atlanta and the rest. Folks can turn this around, but it'll require paying a bit more attention to municipal, county level politics. If NC can turn, so can GA. But turning it around requires building a culture of civic involvement and fostering a culture of evidence, a culture of evidence that's largely lacking in society. Take for instance the case of Michael Jackson. Many are willing to assume out of hand, and on the most flimsy pieces of evidence and hearsay, that he was a child molester. A simple glance at the facts, however, will absolve him of any guilt in the matter. Similar to the way that a quick review of legislative issues facing GA would and should lead any concerned citizen of ATL to get involved in municipal, county wide issues. We're so close to turning things around, so I'm hesitant to completely turn my back on Atlanta.