The Atlantic - Latest Comments in What 9/11 Revealed

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:04:50 -0000

... and now for something completely different.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:02:48 -0000

I hate to be Eurocentric, and I mean no disrespect to neighbors and friends of friends who died in the towers. 9/11 may turn out to have been a world-historical event.

But, especially on the 11th day of the 11th month, I'd argue we need think much more about the meaning of June 28th, 1914.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

freeho — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:59:28 -0000

anyone here care to discuss what the anthrax attacks revealed?

you remember those right... they began less than one week after the 9/11 attack and targeted members of the "librul media" and select state officials, most notably the biggest opponents to the patriot act... remember? do you also recall how our government immediately tried to pin those attacks on iraq? at that time we had, as a nation, received a state of of the union address from the national cathedral -- with the joint chiefs of staff sitting in the front row as though granting audience to george w bush's morning sermon "terrah".

and remember how at that time the taliban merely asked for the evidence linking bin laden to 9/11, saying that they'd hand him over? i think it was colin powell who promised a "white paper" which would enumerate said evidence... but it was never presented. why not? oh yes, because it was easier to simply invade afghanistan, that's why. strike while the iron's hot and all that, right? to this day, no solid evidence has been presented... and even fbi spokesman rex tomb says that “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”

and regarding the anthrax attacks, if i recall correctly: isn't the FBI's star suspect a rather conveniently suicided US government bio-terror scientist?

and didn't someone in this same thread make a quip about conspiracy theory -- as if these alleged conspiracies never occur, right?

you people are too funny... i wonder how many of you fancy yourselves as students of history?

http://odeo.com/episodes/24974958-Michael-Parenti-Conspiracy-Theory-and-Class-Power-Part-1

http://odeo.com/episodes/24974957-Michael-Parenti-Conspiracy-Theory-and-Class-Power

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:50:52 -0000

You are right about the political constraints. But you are posing the historical reality against a theoretical construct of 'absolute war.'

Clausewitz 101: in reality, war is _always_ a continuation of politics by other means. The idea the one could untangle the "Clausewitzian trinity" is a fundamental, (characteristically Anglo-Saxon), misapprehension of the nature of war.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:42:44 -0000

Performance art... nicely put.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:39:57 -0000

The problem with your logic is that it resembles that behind Austria-Hungary's response to Gavrilo Princip.

The got the terrorist... and did a pretty good job of destroying his state sponsor.

Unfortunately, their response misconstrued the true existential threats.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:34:54 -0000

Agreed.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

DeMiurge — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:33:44 -0000

Bingo. "They" haven't attacked us again because they don't need to. Our country is like a big windup toy...just let it go.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:30:59 -0000

The other conclusion is that 9/11 was a 'black swan' event -- e.g. OBL got 'lucky' in a way that Shoko Asahara did not.

It's worth noting, by the way, part of the reason that OBL got lucky on 9/11 was that he relinquished a lot of control over the 9/11 plotters.

The downside for AQ may well have been that the post-9/11 attention set back their effort to destabilize and infiltrate the Pakistani state.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

DeMiurge — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:28:59 -0000

I know someone who was SF at Tora Bora at that time. DoD called them back. He was allowed to escape.

Is he alive now? I don't know.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:21:08 -0000

From the conservative's viewpoint, there are problems that cannot necessarily be fixed, or at least cannot be fixed without spawning unintended consequences.

Unfortunately, few 'Conservatives' had the integrity to remember this insight.

The question may not be whether we can 'fix' the problem, but whether we can 'fix it and forget it.' I'm willing to believe that there are many problems that truly cannot be permanently fixed, only 'maintained' and remediated. Most of these 'problems' are likely best left to be solved by people with a more direct interest.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Carrington — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:13:35 -0000

Cynic, your points recall George Kennan's basic argument: Containment will work, as long as we are able to contain ourselves.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Persia — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:19:47 -0000

The small sentences and lack of caps add to the arty feel, I think.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

dmf — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:12:24 -0000

meh trolls happen, I always wonder if these folks are out there lurking all along or if they have some kind of search bots, seems that whenever we get near topics like gun-control, gay-rights, or obviously now 9/11 we take a trip on the Beck side, maybe next time we can get some ralph steadman illustrations for the thread.

http://www.ralphsteadman.com/

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

SeanH — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:45:57 -0000

we've brought freedom

I agree wholeheartedly with your main point about time being on our side, but we absolutely have not brought freedom to the average Afghan or Iraqi.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:56:03 -0000

He's done. Sorry about that.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

rb — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:27:45 -0000

In other words: freedom isn't free. The wingnuts butcher the phrase, but this is what it really means.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Guest — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:02:11 -0000

I'm actually familiar with these numbers. I'm just not sure what you are trying to say.

Yes, the US government precipitated the war in Iraq. Because the US government had no real plan for the occupation for years after the fall of Baghdad and didn't take the insurgents seriously at first, hundreds of thousand of people died unnecessary violent deaths.

As horrible as the last several years have been for the people of Iraq, it does not approach the textbook definition of genocide. Not that I think anyone deserves a medal.....though L. Paul Bremer got one.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

jwgealt — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:44:45 -0000

If you check on Wikipedia, it is reported that the war in Iraq has caused the violent death of somewhere between 100,000-600,000 people, and has been responsible in general for the death of between 100,000-1,000,000 Iraqis. You can also find that the population of Iraq is about 30,000,000 people. If you trust the lower estimates for deaths due to the war, then it has been responsible for the death of 0.5% of the Iraqi population since 2003; the upper estimates would put the number at about 3%.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Stacy — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:30:42 -0000

He was talking to Ninja Zombie. Someone who you disagreed with as well. You don't even know what conspiracies you believe at this point.

Sorry for responding.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Stacy — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:25:01 -0000

60 Minutes had an interesting segment with one of the heads of our special forces at Tora Bora. He essentially said the same thing as far as Osama escaping while the local tribesman, who were paid by the Americans to help fight Osama's men, played dummy and looked the other why while they escaped.

However, mtlasagna, this does not mean you are not a complete nutcase. It just means that Ninja Zombie is wrong.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

mtlasagna — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:18:06 -0000

uh oh the guy with the ten lb hammer ......

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Jennifer D. — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:45 -0000

CitE - We love how hard you blow.

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Jennifer D. — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:15:46 -0000

Hey! Maybe that's my boyfriend in disguise!

Re: What 9/11 Revealed

Guest — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:15:10 -0000

No!

Never reply directly! It's like Medusa, you'll turn to stone...or something.