The Atlantic - Latest Comments in We Knew This Was Coming

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Darth Thulhu — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:39:04 -0000

On broadcast networks, mostly dead. You still get the occasional supersuccess, like 24 or Lost or Heroes, but the restrictions of broadcast, coupled with the need for great ratings, tend to burn such shows out into repetitive husks.

The place for sustained dramas is cable. Far fewer creative restrictions. Less fixation on sky-high ratings. (Dollhouse on Friday night outranked BSG and Fox News primetime ... Good enough for cable but not enough for broadcast.) Cable tends to do 13 episode arcs of higher quality rather than burn out over 22-24 episodes each year. Cable's where you get the Shield, the Wire, Mad Men, Rome, Farscape, the L Word, BSG, Sopranos, and so forth.

In that regard, cable network drama is in a Golden Age. Broadcast, only so-so.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

scott in AL — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:34:13 -0000

Please don't say that about Firefly. ITS THE BEST TV SHOW EVER. Seriously! Give it a try. The DVDs are twelve bucks at Best Buy. I really wanted to like Dollhouse because I like Whedon so much. But I gave up after 4 episodes. Like Te Nehisi, I didn't love the premise. Eliza Dusku is a mediocre actress. It just never grabbed me. But Firefly was brilliant and its cancellation was all kinds of unjust.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jed — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:08:49 -0000

See, I think Joss and Marti chose very well for Spike -- better than his more ardent fans probably would have done. Spike, the vampire whom True Love turns into Buffy's perfect white knight who would never ever hurt her? BO-ring. But the Spike who is honestly in love with Buffy, yet remains a vampire with a vampire's concept of love, who doesn't understand Buffy as well as he thinks he does, but regains just enough humanity to finally realize he has to change ... now HE is a character worth watching.

But I agree with you about season 6 overall. It's often described as the season when the good guys were their own Big Bads, but that might be missing the big thing. In every season character development was more important than the struggle against the villain, but season 6 was the only one where the characters really experienced the bad parts of growing up.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

tigger500 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:32:24 -0000

Yea, I could never really get with the Spike scene either. Mostly, because it didn't jive with his genuine love for her. Joss and Marti made a crucial mistake in that scene of trying to convince the audience that his love made him crazy, but that kind of behavior isn't about love. And it was totally out of character for Spike at that point.

That said, I think Season 6 was a stellar one. It made sense to me that things became more brutal, more human. It also made sense that Willow would do what she did and that there are limits to Buffy's power. I think a part of examining gender in that show was examining the limits of power, regardless of whether you are a woman like Buffy or a male Giles. I don't think that makes it a lesser show, in fact it's depiction of the excesses and limitations of patriarchy (be it in Buffy or the Initiative or the Watchers' Council) felt more feminist than "make a girl stronger than all the men" concept that was ill-fitting in the first couple of seasons.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Guest — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:26:20 -0000

I watched some episodes of “Dollhouse”, here and there.

I think the main problem with the show can be summed up in the article I read, that first broke the news of its cancellation. In the AP blurb, it described the dollhouse itself as a “high-class prostitution service”.

That’s it, right there. I highly doubt either Joss Whedon or Eliza Dushku, the two creative forces behind the show, ever conceived of the original premise to be so focused on sex. But you can’t have much character or plot development when the actives are getting wiped at the end of every episode. And it’s a network show, where you seemingly live and die solely by ratings and you have an attractive female lead best known for a “bad girl” role, so what do you do? If you don’t have an episode where Echo is kicking someone’s @ss, what else is there to put in previews but Miss Dushku in a skimpy costume?

And when you have the dollhouse being mainly a prostitution service but one where the prostitutes are largely robbed of their free will, who do you actually invest in as a viewer? Adele and Topher are basically pimps, as is just about everyone else who works there. The actives are largely victims but the wiping process kills character continuity. I know they started to correct that by having the wiping process break down a bit but maybe it was too little too late?

I asked my wife, she has watched every single episode. She admits the show was never that great but has a bit of a crush on Eliza Dushku and got a kick out of the getups they put her in.

If anything, perhaps the case of Dollhouse tells us how hard it is to put a show on broadcast television and have it be good, particularly if it’s not a comedy, A drama on a broadcast network already faces near-fatal restrictions on content in terms of violence, sex & nudity and foul language. Add to it the high-stakes rating game that doesn’t allow shows to plan out as many long-term story archs and it’s no wonder there is so much crap out there. (Maybe it’s worth noting that “Buffy” was a mid-season replacement show on the WB network. Expectations weren’t all that high the first season I’m betting.)

I’ll ask the question, are dramas with multi-episode story threads dead and buried on the various television networks? The only dramas I can think of are cop shows, where every new episode is a completely new story, just like a sitcom.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Geenius_at_Wrok — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:02:50 -0000

A big problem with the show was its pacing. Deep down, I think, it wanted to be a mini-series, not a weekly serial. It started off bumpy in season 1, then got its sea legs, then suddenly veered into some philosophically challenging and suspenseful territory. When it came back at the start of season 2, it was as if it had reverted all the way back to the start of season 1. Everything that had made it compelling toward the end of season 1 was dropped like a hot rock. Why? Because you just can't start a season that way, not if you want to have someplace left to go during sweeps month and the season finale. But without its philosophical arc, Dollhouse's subtitle isn't Being and Nothingness, it's Meat Puppets on Parade. Which is boring and squicky.

And I say this as someone who really liked Buffy and adored Firefly.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

tigger500 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:50:35 -0000

I think we have a situation in which Whedon didn't really figure out what this show was until much much too late. In that sense, Dollhouse is not dissimilar from Buffy. Both shows didn't find their sea legs until the second season (in Buffy's case, the moment Buffy lost her virginity and Angel became Angelus the show became something grander and more beautiful than most tv shows that came before it).

The last two episodes of Dollhouse alone make me sad it is going away. Because Whedon has figured out that to make this show truly work he must acknowledge that the premise is reprehensible and that his characters must be either loathsome or victims to make the show work on both a story and "deeper" level.

I suspect that Firefly and Angel sprung fully formed because they were co-created with other geniuses (Tim Minear and David Greenwalt, respectively) who could temper Joss' excesses and embellish and deepen his concepts.

Dollhouse is a loss because, at its best, it was a beautiful, complex, and oftentimes painful, exploration of man's capacity to destroy itself.

Plus - Enver Gjokaj is remarkably versatile and a thrill to watch.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

janinedm — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:34:23 -0000

There's a million evil things he could have done that would have acted as a wake up call for Spike's character, but it just seemed really exploitative and engineered to bring Buffy down a peg in a skeevy way. Also, not necessary in order to add vulnerability to her character.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jennifer — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:32:34 -0000

I thought that "thing" Spike did made sense too. I didn't like it, but it was a logical progression given storyline.

I actually liked the darkness of season six. I kinda wish season 7 had focused more on the original characters instead of bringing in all the new folks, given that it was the final season, but all in all BtVS was a great series.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jennifer — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:25:20 -0000

I loved Buffy, Angel and Firefly/Serenity, but this one just didn't do anything for me.

I do enjoy seeing the actors in other things. I recently got caught up on all the episodes of "Bones" and I'm intriged by "V" with Morena Baccarin. Several other actors having regular gigs on tv too.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Darth Thulhu — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:57:24 -0000

In the first few seasons, those crazy kids in Buffy read books all the time. It was one of the attractions. Similar to their wit, it showed 16 year olds as intelligent and capable of addressing challenges as adults.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Darth Thulhu — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:36:30 -0000

" I am not the only Humorless Feminist Who Doesn't Understand Meta-Commentary."

It's entirely possible to understand the metacommentary and still be very squeemed out about how it's executed. Even as a Whedon fan, I'm aware of his desire to eat his cheesecake and still have her, too. Joss might rack up dozens of hot, sexy fetishgrrrl scenes before ever (*if* ever) showing something as brutally true as Sharon Agathon's treatment in BSG by the Pegasus interrogator's. Yes, yes, the Dolls are being enslaved, but we and Joss somehow spend more time compliant in their exploitation, "enjoying" their exploitation, than reviling it and hoping for its end. (However noble the ultimate escape might be, the season grind is just watching the Dolls grind.) We end up being akin to Adele and Topher far more than the FBI agent .

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jed — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:33:05 -0000

I thought that "thing" Spike did made perfect sense, in terms of both Spike's own development and Buffy's story for that season. But then, I've never been in the "Spike's a saint" camp. He's more interesting my way.

Fans sometimes blame anything they don't like in BTVS seasons 6 and 7 on Marti Noxon; but Joss always came up with the main plotlines and character arcs, and had right of final approval over all the details.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Persia — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:32:02 -0000

Joss was still ultimately responsible for all of it. I really hated Season 6 because it seemed to violate all that the series was supposed to stand for...I'll leave it at that!

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

candace — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:15:20 -0000

I never watched the show because after working with Eliza Dushku for many years I am determined to never have to see her again in life. Call it "Post Hollywood Stress Disorder," if you will.

I did really like Buffy, but I'm not losing sleep over this one. In the case of Ms. Dushku, it couldn't have happened to a *worse* person.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

ajw93 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:02:24 -0000

I sort of liked the first season or two of Buffy, and I have seen a few eps of Firefly, and it was enjoyable but Whedon's stuff tends to get old fast to me.

But really, the best thing about Firefly? Nathan Fillion's "Space Cowboy" joke on Castle's Hallowe'en episode. OK, so I'm not a fan of Joss Whedon and I watch a *lot* of police procedurals instead...but come on, that was frickin' hilarious!

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

ajw93 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:53:50 -0000

If these comments had a "like" button, I'd be clicking on that. I was sad when SCC was cancelled (Brian Austin Green?! Who knew!?) and bitter when I learned Dollhouse was not.

Sigh.

PS, when is 24 coming back, anyway? (heh.)

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

klg19 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:52:14 -0000

Got it in one. The mind-wipe aspect wasn't nearly as loathsome to me as the high-priced whorehouse aspect. Grisly.

I really don't see much in common between Firefly and Dollhouse other than Whedon. I can't see the latter developing anything like the afterlife of the former, which was endlessly fun and beautifuly acted.

Agreed about Sierra and Victor, too--real talent there.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

deva — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:50:28 -0000

Ditto on Fran Kranz. He played that classic Whedon troupe (a moral, anti social funny man) with panache and surprising depth. By the time I stopped watching, I liked him despite myself.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

BreakerBaker — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:44:45 -0000

Yeah, Sorkin's another one. Sometimes his stuff works, but when it doesn't, I find it just unbearable. I can't stand, for instance, Sports Night. My mother and my sister (the latter is mad about Joss Whedon) act as if I have something terribly wrong with me because I think that show is a tonal mish mash -- a sitcom with major pacing problems that's simply not very funny. Oh, and when you get Sorkin, even if it's a show about sportscasters, you're in for a lecture every one or two episodes.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

deva — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:43:04 -0000

Seems Whedon simply bit off more than he could chew. In the end, he wasn't clever enough to pull off the kind of subtlety that his premise would have required to be anything other than misogynist. I think this might have been assuaged a bit if the top-end, corporate plot had moved faster and Echo's revolution had gotten on with it sooner. But it seemed clear the writers had no idea where the show was going. You can't milk a premise like that with no master plan or you end up with, well, what they ended up with. A lot of 'stories of a sex slave' one off's.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

janinedm — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:42:55 -0000

Good to know. I'll have to reassess.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

deva — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:36:30 -0000

Agreed. Generally speaking, I'm a Whedon fan. I thought the Firefly cancellation was a terrible move, but Dollhouse wasn't any good. I doubt there'll be much backlash, the plot was going nowhere and the characters weren't particularly compelling. Agreed that Victor and Sierra deserve a great vehicle for their considerable talents.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jess — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:02:42 -0000

Trying to Reply to Persia about Victor-as-Dominic

Yes. Amazing. He does some stuff in "Belonging" and "Belle Chose" that will hit the reset button on your brain. Fantastic.

Re: We Knew This Was Coming

Jess — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:58:25 -0000

I actually never had a problem getting really invested in the dolls- their blankness, their helplessness, made me feel protective and extra-outraged about the stuff that happened to them. (I realize I am very much in the minority.) Enver Gjokaj in Omega, esp., with that...that FACE. "How can I be my best?" I just wanted to cuddle him and maim everyone else all at once.

He's just a golden find. Did you watch "Belle Chose"? From serial killer to Girl Gone Wild in 3 frames, didn't bat an eye.