The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Tough HOF Picks

Re: Tough HOF Picks

chm — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:06:41 -0000

There are too many qbs in Canton. But no punters. Put Ray Guy in yesterday. Alas, philistines like King--and the NFL's preposterous selection process--stand in the way.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

sanjuroku — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:08:12 -0000

There are already far too many QBs in the HoF. The only fair thing would be a 5 year moratorium on QB and RB entries to give everyone else a chance to catch up.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Aloysius Mephistopheles — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 04:00:09 -0000

Possibly quite a bit better. I guess it's possible he wouldn't have put it all together until he was 31 anyway, but it's pretty unlikely. Usually a quarterback is what he is by the time he's in his thirties; he doesn't suddenly emerge as a star. The only one I can think of that did is Rich Gannon, and that may have been more a matter of a team finally figuring out how to use his skills properly.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

eric k — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:39:11 -0000

Your kind of making my point, Moon's best NFL years were age 31-39. Maybe those were his decline numbers, Yeah they were good enough for 22nd of all time, that doesn't mean he was just as good in his 30s as he we was in his 20s. It means he was so good that his decline years were still pretty damn good! How much better would he have been if he came into the NFL at 23 instead of 28?

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Aloysius Mephistopheles — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:12:45 -0000

What would be "decline years" for most QB's actually ended up being Moon's best seasons - His best nine consecutive years were 1987-1995, when he was 31-39 years old. In 1995 he threw 33 touchdown passes, so his ranking isn't being dragged down by mediocre seasons at the end of his career. Still, he might rank higher if he'd started his NFL career in his early twenties.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

eric k — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:37:47 -0000

the fact that Moon lost 5 of his prime years to Canada so his 9 seasons meant he was at least 5 years older than the other guys may have a fair bit to do with that. He may have hit the ground running with no rookie break in period, but on the other end to get 9 years means he has to include more decline years than the other guys. If the 9 years were say Age 24-32 vs 29-37 for example.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Aloysius Mephistopheles — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:13:57 -0000

Football Outsiders linked to an interesting list by Neil Paine at PFR, ranking quarterbacks based on their peak performance over time. At the bottom of the page he has quarterbacks ranked based on their best 9 consecutive seasons. Anderson ranks 9th all-time, Fouts 6th, Moon 22nd. I think everyone in the top 10 besides Anderson either is a first ballot HOFer or will be (Peyton Manning). Few people seem blown away by Anderson's play, but his stats are awfully impressive.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4275

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Justin — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:59:20 -0000

Warner has got the jewelry and the numbers, he's also a pretty nice guy which will go a long way w/ the voters. He's clearly a first time ballot guy. Shannon Sharp should also be in the HOF along with Anderson. Simms is a bit overratede, but Moon is one of the best QB's to ever play the game, his combined CFL/NFL numbers are proof of that. You can't slight him for going to the only league that would let him play the position he won a Rose Bowl playing.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Bronx Bomber — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:50:47 -0000

My criteria for HOF entry in any sport is simple. When so and so is mentioned as a potential HOF'er, is my response, "without question" or do i have to think about it? If I have to even think about it or look up stats, you're not a HOF'er, point blank. That distinction needs to be reserved for the true greats, not the very good.

Deion Sanders - HOF'er

Emmitt Smith - HOF'er

Reggie White - HOF'er

Lawrence Taylor - HOF'er

Kurt Warner? I'm sorry, he got benched for Bulger, Eli and Leinart during his prime. Sure politics plays into those decisions but truly great players don't get benched as a QB not 1x, 2x but 3x. Even Montana was benched but for Steve Young, a HOF'er himself. I also watched him on the Giants and on the Denny Green Cardinals. He was just an average QB at best.

As for Ken Anderson, I didn't watch him play so I can't state definitively either way but I did watch Jim Kelly and he was a HOF'er. Anyone who gets his team to 4 straight super bowls and has stats to accompany that has to be in the mix.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

eric k — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:44:13 -0000

I think the Blyleven analogy with Anderson is a good one. Underrated guy mostly because he played for bad teams his whole career.

But lets not get carried away, no way he is better than Fouts and Moon. That is just stats guys getting lost in the numbers and losing the forest for the trees so to speak. QB rating is a decent stat but isn't the end all, one number that says it all thing they are trying to make it. The system Anderson played in vs the ones Fouts and Moon played in is going to inflate a guys numbers.

Interesting side note about Moon, when he came down from Canada he of course wanted to play for Seattle where he was still popular from his Husky days (we actually watched Canadian football to follow him) The hangup? Ken Behring the asshole owner who later tried to move the team to LA wouldn't give him a guaranteed contract. It was something like 5 years for 5 mil IIRC, which at the time was decent but not off the charts. So instead he goes to Houston and the Seahawks go through the fiascoes of Dan McGwire, Kelly Stouffer and Rick Mirer, plus about a zillion journeyman QBs until a way past his prime Moon signs on and has a couple good years for them and then eventually trading for Hasslebeck.

Man if only either the Nordstrom family had kept the team longer or Paul Allen had bought them sooner how different would history have been...

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:20:35 -0000

554 Norm Van Brocklin, Los Angeles vs. N.Y. Yanks, Sept. 28, 1951

527 Warren Moon, Houston vs. Kansas City, Dec. 16, 1990

You're right. It's Van Brocklin.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

minew — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:59:25 -0000

Ricky Jackson belongs in the HOF. Just look at the numbers. Like Anderson, he is penalized for playing in a small market.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

corcoran25 — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:18:28 -0000

TNC,

Are you talking about the yards in a game record that he took a run at one game? I think that's actually a Norm Van Brocklin record. Or am I confused?

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Doug T — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:32:48 -0000

I agree that Ken Anderson probably deserves to be in the HOF. Certainly over Simms, who was a nice enough QB but somebody who shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with the hall of fame. The Giants were a ball control and defense team. Simms was good to have, but he didn't make the offense go and isn't a guy you'd cite as a key reason why NY was a great team. I wonder if his broadcasting career isn't influencing voters to overrate his playing years. How can you select a guy who only made the pro bowl twice in his whole career to the HOF?

And yes to #1. It's absurd that Shannon Sharpe wasn't a first ballot guy. He was clearly one of the greatest 3 or 4 of all time at his position.

However, any discussion of players deserving to get into Canton needs to recognize how difficult the voting process is, and how few players they allow to be inducted. Unlike baseball, there's a strict limit to number of inductees in a given year, and this in a sport with 22 position players compared to 9 in baseball. The way it's set up, it's easy for deserving players to end up missing out, because there are so few slots available. Which makes it even less defensible to have guys like Lynn Swann inducted. At least putting good but not great players from dynasty teams into the baseball HOF (like Phil Rizutto and Tony Perez) doesn't take away spots from other guys.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

Incertus(Brian) — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:28:20 -0000

The argument here for Anderson reminds me of the one for Bert Blyleven in baseball--one I find very convincing, by the way. Played for a long time in the shadow of much more famous players, compiled some impressive numbers quietly, but did so in a smaller market. I'm sold--put him in.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

sv — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:22:43 -0000

I'm guessing Moon broke Namath's record in the very next game?

Also, I don't know much about this HOF stuff, but I thought CHFF's quip about the Opium Wars was quite clever.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

DougEMI — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:50:36 -0000

The first thing that pops into my mind with Lester Hayes is stickum. Did the league ban it because of him?

I don't know Simms's numbers, but I think I have always unrated him because of his horrible hair.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

CitizenE — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:30:20 -0000

Remember numbers aren't everything in football. Anderson played in far more conservative offenses than Moon or Fouts. Take Favre for example, right now he is by and large playing in a west coast offense, and his pass completion percentage is way up. Moon played mostly with an offense that basically was pass happy, low percentage football. Anderson had, much like other qbs of Montana's generation, the ill fortune for his finest year to be the one in which the Forty Niners and Joe Montana ascended to the heights in the Super Bowl against Cincinnati, and ultimately we judge qbs by championships, but big arms like Fouts or Moon or Marino even are remembered for their jawdropping long distance throws, not their accuracy.

There are so many good quarterbacks right now; think how many will be left out of the initial pro bowl selections. Joe Flacco (not to mention Denver and Houston qbs)--when there is Manning and Brady? Matt Ryan--when there is Brees, Favre (if he can last the season), and Rodgers (not to mention Manning)?

I am amazed that Branch is not already HOF.

Re: Tough HOF Picks

The Ace Tomato Company — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:30:12 -0000

I still think it's a travesty that Shannon Sharpe is not an first round Hall of Famer. 3 Superbowls, just about every TE record, as well as a true competitor and classy-as-hell guy.

Seriously?!!!

Moon was robbed too.