The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Torture

Re: Torture

Karina Ayoubi — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:40:32 -0000

I can see that you are putting a lots of efforts into your blog. Keep
posting the good work.Some really helpful information in there.
Bookmarked. Nice to see your site. Thanks!

FREE DOWNLOAD WALLPAPERS

Re: Torture

kivancmtl35 — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 15:41:47 -0000

Re: Torture

BreakerBaker — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:08:34 -0000

eruditeogre:

I absolutely understand (and to a degree, agree with) your perception of what I am saying: that it essentially amounts to an unprincipled strain of logic, one that, as you say, risks opening the doors to a possible flood of indiscretion. That being said, I’m not sure those doors aren’t already open. And for that matter, off the hinges. When I argue for a cost/benefit analysis, I am not simply warning about political costs, I’m honestly wondering how we as a country will literally benefit.

Personally, I’m not moved by this notion that we need to regain our soul, nor am I anywhere near certain that prosecutions of these crimes (by the federal government) could be successful. In fact, I think it’s highly unlikely that the federal government could get a conviction higher than, say, obstruction of justice, if that. Further, what does it accomplish for the federal government to try people for crimes that were authorized by the federal government? Theoretically, and I assume this is the meat of the prosecutions most people are demanding, the government could go after the very officials who authorized torture in the first place, so you end up with a trying whom exactly? Cheney? Ashcroft? Gonzales? Tenet? Rice? Rumsfeld? Rove? Members of Congress? Inevitably it ends with Bush, right? (Riiiiiight.) Good luck with the jury pool on that one.

You’re talking about an expensive, years long process that will end with a new president elected in 2012 who will have run on ending what he will call ‘political persecution of people who spent day and night heroically thinking of ways to keep us all safe.’ And the investigations and prosecutions will end. And we’ll be worse off than we are now. So yeah, I see a lot of costs and virtually no quantifiable benefit.

Re: Torture

BreakerBaker — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:23:53 -0000

Really? The only people? Is that you sizing me up? I do make that argument. I do believe that a prosecution would be damaging and unsuccessful. If I thought it would be one but not the other, then I might lean more toward it making sense. If I thought this would end with successful prosecutions, maybe I would think it would be worth the catastrophic political losses. But I don't think federal employees are going to be convicted by a federal court for exercising authority they believed to be granted to them by the federal government. Furthermore, when you put it that way, I don't think they should. I honestly don't know how the Justice Department tries people for carrying out what was--at the time--Justice Department policy. It seems like the height of hypocrisy.

Even if we could get around that, you have to accept that without the majority of the people behind prosecution, any prosecution will be viewed as political by a lot of Americans. Prosecution would take years, countless millions of dollars and man hours, and would distract government from anything other than prosecution. Republicans (and Democrats from conservative states) would torpedo legislation, nothing would ever get accomplished, and the Justice Department would have to eventually settle for obstruction convictions (if any convictions at all). 2010 would be a nightmare for congressional Democrats, and 2012 would undo the wins of 2006 as well as install a nationalist Republican president who would run on ending these 'political persecutions of the people who spent eight years keeping us safe.' (I'm assuming that's what they'd say).

I very well could be wrong. I'd like to believe that it was likely. I just don't think that it is.

Additionally, these memos do not reflect anything remotely as bad for us as the transcript of the Wannsee Conference did for the post-war Germans. For the reasons you describe (i.e. America is still in charge of itself) and for the even more obvious reality that as terrible as these infractions were, and I do believe they were terrible, they do not begin to compare to what the Nazis did in Germany (or the Japanese in China, for that matter), so your Nazi analogy, like most contemporary Nazi analogies, doesn't really hold water.

Re: Torture

eruditeogre — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:40:34 -0000

BreakerBaker:

The problem with this idea of cost/benefit is that you open the door for future administrations (as well as the current one) to make laws and judgments that contravene international agreements or even US civil codes and, when those creations lead to abuses, then say "Well, it's too much trouble to prosecute!" I think that's ridiculous. If you extended this to other aspects of law and justice, we'd start assessing more crimes by the amount of trouble it would take to prosecute them, and what we would get out of them. Saying that it is not politically expedient to follow agreements and legal precedents just allows government an enormous amount of power.

Re: Torture

eruditeogre — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:31:18 -0000

"Just following orders" goes about this far:

Article 2, part 3, UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment:

"An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture."

It is not a defense. You cannot avoid prosecuting for this reason. Perhaps you can ameliorate the penalties, but you cannot just dismiss the acts.

Re: Torture

LoneStar — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:48:39 -0000

I concur as well. And allow me to completely dumb down this discussion by asking, did you ever see the skit on Chapelle Show, "When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong"?

Sorry but your opening comments brought that to mind. LOL

Re: Torture

LoneStar — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:42:41 -0000

I have to agree with Nina. And I know it will certainly put me in the minority view on this subject, for which I intend no disrespect. But I just don't think prosecution is possible, politically speaking.

It would destroy his relationship with the CIA. And he'd end up being painted as the one who was un-American, instead of the torturers.

Cheney's private army and shadow government already strained relations with the intelligence community. They've got to be really demoralized at this point. Then to be prosecuted for, basically, following the orders of the president? It'd be the last straw.

Another problem, which I heard raised on NPR, is where would the prosecutions end? Since most members of Congress were secretly briefed on interrogation methods, wouldn't they be liable as well? And you know it had to go all the way to Cheney, probably Bush as well.

My opinion: It's a Pandora's box that he can't afford to open.

Especially without a strong sense of outrage and desire for prosecution on the part of the American public, which so far at least, is just not happening.

Re: Torture

carlianschwartz — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:19:05 -0000

The only people who would make such a prosecution divisive would be what remains of the Republican Party (Limbaugh, Newt, Fox "News," and the ignorant people who are persuaded by them to vote AGAINST their best interests--not to mention those who view the Holocaust as erotica). But the torture memos are as bad for this nation as the "secret" transcript of the Wannsee Conference of 1942 (which outlined the day-to-day operations of the Holocaust) were for Germany.

In some respects, the Germans of 1945 were luckier than Americans after the 2008 elections. By national ruin and foreign occupation, even the most die-hard Nazis knew they had lost the war and that their ideology was bankrupt. Some fled to other nations, others suicided, and the higher-ups remaining were tried in war crimes tribunals, setting a precedent for years to come.

I should add that the rank-and-file SS people who actually operated the camps largely missed out on prosecution--much like the CIA agents who tortured or supervised torture seem to be getting a pass here. And for much the same reason--limited resources.

Contrast this with what happened to Germany at the end of World War I (the nation intact, but the economy in tatters)--and what is happening in America now. Nothing was physically ruined. The means of production are still able to be started up. No cities were bombed to the ground. But as a result, the right- and left-wing political groups in Germany--and the GOP die-hards here--don't realize that they have lost (either a war or a legitimate election). The GOP die-hards CANNOT be counted on to work together with the Democrats to rebuild a nation neglected by 30 years of crackpot ideology, economics, and a war started on lies and waged by choice.

We have to invest the time, effort, and (yes!) treasure to investigate the higher-ups who wrote these memoranda--and those who ordered them to do it--in order to avoid having this loathsome practice repeated if the current, crackpot remnants of the GOP ever return to power and decide to abrogate the Constitution again. People must remember our history--and the history of the country BushCheney seemed to be copying--Nazi Germany.

Re: Torture

Paul Wartenberg — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:29:02 -0000

Keep calling Woolsey back. Get your friends to keep calling Woolsey. Don't make threats, don't go extremist or anything, just keep calling.

Anyone know which committee in the House would have any oversight on the matter that could push for impeachment proceedings on Bybee?

Also, I have to ask if any defense lawyer is going to be comfortable having a judge like Bybee presiding over cases, and if they are able to petition for changes in venue or to request he be recused on cases... I wonder if pressure could be made that way...

Re: Torture

Paul Wartenberg — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:23:40 -0000

I've signed petitions already. WE NEED TO GET OUT ON THE STREET.

Someone mentioned to me that there's a day June 26 that's International Day in Support of Torture Victims. It was started back in 1987. Let's use that as a rally point to get people in DC challenging Obama and the Justice Dept. to pursue the Bush torture advocates for their criminal misdeeds.

Re: Torture

bread & roses — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:07:57 -0000

America has been different. I'm not saying that, in the main, or on average, throughout history, America has been less evil than any other place- but there are a lot of examples throughout American history, from the religious liberty we have maintained since before nationhood, to the civil war (which may not primarily have been about ending slavery, but which did end it), to the decent treatment we gave prisoners of war in WWII. There are lots of examples of opposite behavior- the Salem witch trials, Sacco and Vanzetti, slavery, Jim Crow, on and on. But we have shown, through our history, that we are CAPABLE of doing the right thing and offering justice to one another and to our enemies. So the important thing, to me, is that we CAN be different, that we can do better than this.

And looking at torture, if we can do better than this, I think we must. So I intend to pressure all I can to have the top people in the torture prosecuted, no just to render justice but because it says in those memos that the conclusions that that sick stuff was legal is shaky because it has never been adjudicated in a court. Our legal system works on precedent, and we need a good solid precedent really clarifying that this stuff is just dead illegal. I don't particularly care about prosecuting the people who carried out the torture. It the ones who authorized it, who ordered it, and who said that it was legal who need to be publicly punished for being wrong. Obama has changed our policy; an executive order only lasts as long as the executive's term, when it can be overturned. A court decision has a much longer life.

Re: Torture

Condor7 — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:44:09 -0000

I am from Arkansas and there fore not as articulate as many of the posters to this thread. Since I was a kid in WWII I felt that the USA was a shining city on the hill. The Nazis and the Japs commited horrendous war crimes but not our boys. Further our elected officials were honest servants of the public good. I was at this time naïve enough to believe that we were a nation of equal justice under the law. That was then.

I have learned in the ensuing years of Emmet Till, the Keating Five, Congressman Rostenkowski, Teddy Kennedy , Nixon, Enron, Bush , Libby, Cheney , Madoff, Credit Default Swaps, and now the DOJ Memos on torture. It sickens me to realize that the political and economic elite are served from a different fountain of Justice. The rest of us get cool aid. For that reason alone the Law against torture should be applied to the authors of the memos, the executive branch chiefs that implemented the orders and those who applied the insects, water, and whips.

If this doesn’t happen then the Nuremberg trials are a farce and a pure example of the Victor’s vengeance.

President Obama has shown the political will to order the memos released now he must show the fortitude to see that charges are brought down and let the courts decide the guilt or innocence of those directly involved.

Properly applied the Law applies equally to the political elite as to the most humble citizen.

Re: Torture

adin — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:30:46 -0000

I agree with most of the arguments which do not support Obama's 'let by gones be gones', 'I was just taking orders', rationale for not allowing an investigation by DOJ on the whole torture nightmare.

I find the excuses that it's politically sensitive [therefore messy] or that the issue is one too many for Obama's plate, to be ludicrous, weak tea. It seems to me that any reasonable person would find the failure to even investigate the allegations of torture an abject failure of the rule of law and devoid of moral standing.

I just finished reading "Team of Rivals". Has anyone here read it? There is a creepy parallel in the way Obama is dealing with the torture issue and the way Lincoln wanted to deal with the Confederacy at the end of the war. The problem is that the two situations have nothing to do with the other.

It certainly has given me cause to pause.

Re: Torture

akr — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:18:14 -0000

Not exactly a protest, but: if it's any consolation, I called my congresswoman (Woolsey) today and urged that she take leadership in pushing for the impeachment of Jay Bybee (we are after all under the jurisdiction of the 9th Circuit). I had to spell the name out for her staffer (actually a pretty competent young woman). I emphasized the guilt of the 6 that Spain was looking at, and that Woolsey would probably also recognize the name John Yoo (I'm in NorCal, I don't always vote for my Congresswoman in the primary because, frankly, she's to the easy left of me on a lot of issues (she fits the district: environmentalist NIMBY counts as left, whereas I'm more interested in equality of opportunity; she to my mind errs on the side of pacifism (I'm with Obama in opposing stupid wars rather than all wars, but I'm not so sure he's coming at the Pashtun problem (Af/Pak border) intelligently), but she has some seniority on relevant committees so I pointed out that I thought it was something on which she could take a leadership role. Then the agenda gets advanced, her reflexively anti-war district is happy, and Obama gets to distance himself from the extremes of the reaction while actually getting the job done. Potential win-win. If you're in a similar district, consider making a call.)

I was thrilled on Thursday: it wasn't all I wanted, but it was the minimum I'd hoped for, and I got it. It was a big week: he hit a lot of constituencies.

And always remember that he's playing a long game.

So, come on, people, if you want action on this issue, press for it. I'd rather it came from us than from him, anyway: in some ways he needs to remain above the fray. And: media hit after media hit after media hit this week! Nice way to drown out the tea parties just in case they amounted to much. Which I don't think they did.

Re: Torture

sansouci — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:46:27 -0000

Have you thought about forming a FB group and circulating a petition?

Re: Torture

rikyrah — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:44:27 -0000

I believe The President is wrong. All of them should be prosecuted. I know it isn't practical, but that's what I believe. All of the Bush crooks should go to jail. What the good is it to have a Justice Department that won't go after those that broke the law.

Re: Torture

John999 — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:41:21 -0000

I usually don't make this kind of comment, but, is it possible that torturing dark-skinned people, Muslims at that, really doesn't rate too high on most Americans' outrage scale?

Re: Torture

Neal — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:26:30 -0000

I'm in awe at the naivete of self-righteous bloggers and commenters who think that somehow America is different. How can any student of American history think we are not capable of absolute evil? Why do we think we are immune to corruption and exploitation when all the evidence suggests otherwise?

Re: Torture

brianrw — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:16:12 -0000

Try reading another blog. Deleted.

Re: Torture

Paul Wartenberg — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:48:48 -0000

Dudes.

I've posted answers on threads on Balloon Juice, FDL, and Obsidian Wings. I'm posting here.

I've sent an email to Greenwald, Sullivan, and ThinkProgress. And I'm saying here again.

We need - all of us who are angry and upset about the torture memos, the Cheney torture regime, and Obama's refusal to prosecute - to form our own protest!

Let's do this! If FOX Not-News can foment and blather enough to get 250,000 people to protest taxes that might not ever exist, why can't we get 2 million people to protest a torture policy that DID exist and DESERVES to be prosecuted?

I am offering to pay the 50 bucks for the park permits for the National Mall in DC. Let's set a date, and LET'S DO THIS THING.

Let's host a protest! C'mon people! Work with me here!

Re: Torture

eraserhead666 — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:45:40 -0000

It seems pretty simple to me: the people tortured are brown, so torture doesn't matter.

Re: Torture

Tony Comstock — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:26:50 -0000

What should I do?

Write a letter to your representative

Write letters to your senators

Write a letter to our president

Blog

Now crack a brew and drink it knowing you've done your part.

Re: Torture

gggriff — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:57:22 -0000

I write condemning pieces about torture and the torturers on my blog. I also hold Obama's feet to (illusory) fire.

No-one reads any of it, I don't think.

Protest? If someone organized one I'd go, but I certainly don't have the time or abilities to coordinate one myself.

Do you demand more of me? I tell everyone who I think who will listen about America's torture.

I'm writing a movie that will present Nazi torture in strikingly similar terms to American torture (as has been pointed out by Andrew Sullivan, among others).

Beyond that, is there something I should do? I'm a poor guy in my 20's. What should I do?

Re: Torture

muzz al atesta — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:42:51 -0000

fe real

seen?