The Atlantic - Latest Comments in To Turn Your Stomach

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

malmaison — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:15:39 -0000

Liz Cheney oversaw the disbursement of millions of dollars of descretionary funding to middle Eastern countries when she was at State. THe list of those countires matches the list in Jane Mayer's book that Pop Cheney outsourced the torture to. Some of the money she disbursed was "secret" for national security reason. Get a clue, people.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

rikyrah — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:32:29 -0000

Arrest Dick Cheney. Arrest him.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Deborah — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:52:48 -0000

I'm starting to think Plouffe and Emanuel had a little "okay, Rush is getting old, whom shall we anoint the new face of the GOP?" discussion, and lit on Cheney defending torture.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

freaktown — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:36:34 -0000

liz cheney was flat out lying when she said dennis blair said the program was "incredibly effective". the memo is here, and the only time he even uses the word "effective" is in this sentence:

One of the most effective tools in discovering groups planning to attack us are their communications, and it is the job of the NSA to intercept them.

But thats what these people do. They lie. Repeatedly and loudly.

Also, i like how she accuses norah of "just reading headlines" as if they weren't true statements just because they were headlines, which are basically one sentence summaries of the contents of the story.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Hugo Pottisch — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:14:56 -0000

PS: I love how Ms Cheney explains to us that Al Queada simple chops the heads off Americans. As if there was no death penalty in the US. No - torture is something else.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Hugo Pottisch — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:12:34 -0000

United Nations Convention Against Torture

Article 1

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Article 2

No exceptional circumstances whatsoever" may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict. Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies. Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials. The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised. Since the Conventions entry into force, this absolute prohibition has become accepted as a principle of customary international law.

Because it is often difficult to distinguish between cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and torture, the Committee regards Article 16's prohibition of such treatment as similarly absolute and non-derogable.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Linoleum Blownaparte — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:40:40 -0000

It's astonishing the way the abandon their souls to cling to their lives.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

CitizenE — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:32:32 -0000

I couldn't watch the whole thing. Peggy Noonan is one thing; this is quite another--sociopathy fronting as a protection racket. Oh for a Shakespearean ending for these scoundrels--nightmares and soul shattering defeat, the brand of Torquemada down through the corridors of history.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Carrington — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:29:08 -0000

Pretty significant point, actually -- I tend to think the evangelical movement grew up around the idea that there was only heaven... no slippery slope to Hell. Which is one of the reasons their leaders have become corrupt.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Carrington — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:27:11 -0000

Heh. Wasn't she previously in charge of publicity for Coors?

Peter principle at work?

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Carrington — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:25:28 -0000

Does anyone remember the little internet flap about the Bushes surveying land in Paraguay?

I think most reading it at the time thought it might be for his own family to retire...

I'm beginning to think he may have planned a whole retirement community!

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

muzz al atesta — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:22:08 -0000

In February 2005, she returned to the US State Department and was appointed the Principal Deputy

Assistant Secretary of State For Near Eastern Affairs and Coordinator for Broader Middle East and North Africa Initiatives.

Her position made her the second-ranking U.S. diplomat for the Middle East.

Elizabeth Cheney also headed the Iran Syria Policy and Operations Group (ISOG), established in March 2006, a unit within the State Department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.

it's not just her dad she's trying to shield from judicial scrutiny, she's knee deep in the morass herself

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

GAPeach7 — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:07:00 -0000

"If Al Queda captures an American, they will cut his head off." - Liz Cheney

Since when does America hold itself to the standards of a terrorist group? How truly nauseating that moral bankruptcy runs in the family.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

BreakerBaker — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:02:48 -0000

Technically, under our justice system, everyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. I'm not arguing in favor of anybody who ordered or performed torture. I am arguing that members of Congress, including now-Speaker Pelosi were briefed on the methods likely to be used in interogation practice as a matter of policy. She can claim that she was never told subsequently when the practice was finally implemented (and that may be true), but seeing as she showed no sign of objection (privately or publicly) at the time, I find her moral authority or credibility on the matter somewhat less than compelling.

Hypocrisy is bad. Torture is worse. But when the investigative body was previously aware and arguably complicit in the crime it is investigating, one begins to wonder whether they themselves should be defendants also.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Alesis — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:48:20 -0000

Oh, of course it would be better if the chief law enforcement officer... enforced the law.

Anytime such inquiries have to go through the legislative branch it is a failure of the system.

Nevertheless, law enforced by a hypocritical congress is better than lawlessness.

Hypocrisy is bad... torture is worse.

I do find it funny though how easy it is to assume Pelosi knew yet the people who actually ordered and performed the torture somehow deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Linoleum Blownaparte — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:28:34 -0000

This bludgeoning, oppressive bureaucratic language...

I hate these people more than al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda only kills us.

These people Damn us.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

BreakerBaker — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:21:55 -0000

The problem with Pelosi--her quibbling denials notwithstanding--is that she knew this was going on and said nothing. She's not in a position of credibility on the matter. The House investigating this would be the height of hypocrisy because many of the would-be investigators knew it was happening.

If there is a way that this works, it is through Holder. The more the House or Senate get involved, the less legit and easier to marginalize it will become.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Rey — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:21:25 -0000

Yeah, it's sickening. The fact that Liz Cheney is doing an interview on MSNBC and lying through her teeth smells of a PR campaign to defend her pops. I don't know, I'm torn on this whole issue. But looking back on that beautiful late summer Tuesday morning of 9-11 and watching tv seeing our country under attack, maybe torture of whom ever was responsible was not the first thing to come to mind but, payback was. Enjoy these 4 years of Obama now, because if the DOJ goes forward with prosecuting the war crimes of the Bush admin. Goodbye to a 2nd term and goodbye to Hillary for 2016. Yes, it was torture, yes, it was wrong but, so is the torture of the economy, my 401k, my job, national healthcare, more jobs, and the environment.

Dick Cheney will rot in hell- Trust.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Incertus(Brian) — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:06:55 -0000

If it wasn't clear before, it is now--Liz Cheney is a monster. And so are all the others who would argue that because the members of the Armed Forces who undergo SERE training are waterboarded that waterboarding isn't torture. They are pathological; they are rabid. Jail is too good for them, but it's the best we have.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Alesis — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:58:25 -0000

I'm not sure we have any real power center outside the House (domain of "one-punch" Pelosi may she live forever)...

...that can be trusted to buck the idea that the executive branch is above the law.

Holder may have fought for the memos, but what in his history says he has the guts to go all the way and possibly (probably) tick off the president?

The Obama administration is already leaning on Congress to shut up about it (Reid is on board the hush train) and they've already stepped over the line of demarcation with DOJ.

As much as people like to make fun of Pelosi's disregard for the cult of moderation I think she and Conyers might be our only hope.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Bruce — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:40:33 -0000

im impressed with Lawrence O'Donnell's pathos and sence of justice. It may be that he is a partisan in this matter, but the truth isn't. Words matter. A is A, and not B, torture cannot be called something else and then loose it's definition. It's funny that she (Liz Cheney) didn't have the stones to go up against someone of a different opinion than her own. Otherwise someone might have challenged her parsing and rape of the english language. Sigh, I thought today would be a good day.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

FOARP — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:22:28 -0000

Saw the whole thing, just plain sickening. Liz Cheney is obviously trying to keep her dad out of jail, that's understandable, but the reasoning she uses to do it is disgusting. 180 hours without sleep, your head slammed as many as 30 times into a wall in a day, drowned 180 times in one month, left shackled in a 'stress position' for hours, but she still has to argue that it is 'not torture'.

Let's make a little list of those who won't be missed:

Rumsfeld

Yoo

Bybee

Addington

Cheney

Rice

All of the authorised, facilitated, or approved of torture. The only one we don't have solid evidence for is the big one - where is Bush?

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

sgwhiteinfla — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:21:27 -0000

Lawrence O'Donnell clapped back though!

http://tinyurl.com/ch4p6j

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

gsk+ — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:18:36 -0000

Y'know, William Blake said it 200 years ago: "We become what we behold."

"These fools" apparently can NOT hear or work-through any of the arguments from morality, the Constitution, the fact that being a nation that does not torture is (like Andrew says) foundational & non-negotiable.

No matter what ya bring up, they respond like a bunch of thugs who PREFER their way of doing business and "getting results".

This (the T-thing) has turned out to be (as we knew it likely would) THE Place where our long-growing brutaslising comes up against the Rock of morality, constitutionaslity, call it what you will.

Well, the game is afoot, may Holder etAL be able to play it through.

Re: To Turn Your Stomach

Bruce — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:16:17 -0000

Wow....this is the third time i've watched this since it came out yesterday. she should get an award for editorializing, i mean she has to have her head pretty far up her own ass to be able to say " that's not what the world is hearing"...what? does she believe what she's saying, or is she scared shitless that they're gonna take her daddy away in cuffs?