The Atlantic - Latest Comments in This is painful to watch

Re: This is painful to watch

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:54:03 -0000

"Actually seeing as how you were never a slave (presumably), you should be thankful. And if your ancestors were slaves you should be thankful they ended up here."

By this logic, Jews who ended up here after fleeing the Holocaust should be "thankful" for the Holocaust. Cuban-Americans should be "thankful" for Fidel. The Puritans should have been "thankful" for the religious persecution they endured. Native Americans in this country should be "thankful" for being wiped off the continent. And so on...

Re: This is painful to watch

sam — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:16:51 -0000

Actually seeing as how you were never a slave (presumably), you should be thankful. And if your ancestors were slaves you should be thankful they ended up here.

It doesn't make it right, but I am certainly thankful for the many terrible things my ancestors endured so that I might enjoy the benefits I have today. This should go without saying....

Yes, we are thankful many many terrible things were endured so that we might enjoy the freedoms and liberties we have. We are NOT thankful that those things had to happen in order for things to turn out as they are, but this planet has never been a rose garden. Of course, if you want to score cheap "I'm offended" points you could assume otherwise and get all huffy puffy without having to address the substance. Which is that the terrible things many or our ancestors endured in the past, we are better because of them, not in spite of them.

This does not give someone free reign to go and do terrible things simply because it benefits someone's progeny. Although many terrible things do happen that have benefit to our decedents.

Re: This is painful to watch

Carrington Ward — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:01:11 -0000

nice point sgwhiteinfla.

Which dorm were you in, matter?

Re: This is painful to watch

Carrington Ward — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:58:25 -0000

nice point sgwhiteinfla.

Re: This is painful to watch

matter — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:46:17 -0000

I knew Capehart back in the day. In college, he lived a couple doors down from me in the dorm. Back then, he was a go-along, get-along, say-anything, do-anything, don't-rock-the-boat, simpering little wimp. Obviously, nothing has changed!

Well, one thing. At least he's stopped wearing bow ties.

Re: This is painful to watch

Eduardo — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:23:21 -0000

@sgwhiteinfla

Thanks for the links.

I stand corrected on the vandalizing of churches. It is wrong and leads to nowhere.

Re: This is painful to watch

Marie Burns — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:43:22 -0000

After Pat Buchanan came out with his latest "black 'folks' should be grateful for all the welfare 'we' gave them" (JUST THIS LAST SUMMER, not back in the 70s), I wrote to all the NBC execs whose name I could find asking them to can Pat. They did make Pat disappear for a couple of weeks, but now even Rachel has him as sort of a regular on her show (was that a condition of her employment?). I'm thinking Pat of the Nixon White House has something on some old NBC suit.

Anyway, I NEVER watch Scarborough because even when he has good guests, he and Mika are such righty-right apologists, I'm afraid I'll throw something and wreck a perfectly good foreign-made TV.

Capehart should never have had to make any argument, and he didn't get to make it to me, because I know I couldn't stomach the clip.

As for Rick Warren, I still say the bigger argument is not his being anti-gay, anti-feminist, or his anti-semitic. It's his being an anti-science fundamentalist. All of the major social problems in this country and most of the world's problems are directly attributable to fundamentalist religious beliefs. (If there WERE a god, the first thing she would do would be to wipe out religion.)

Barack Obama's choice of Rick Warren promotes fundamentalism, and as such it undermines American social equality and world peace. Not exactly a good way to start a presidency.

I'm still urging a quiet protest at the inauguration, in which people sing "We Shall Overcome" throughout the invocation. Drown out the bigot with hope.

The Constant Weader at www.RealityChex.com

Re: This is painful to watch

Bob — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:02:36 -0000

What world is this? "I love your fashion sense"? When making a sport analogy, they feign impropriety? Prissy gay people don't play sport, of course! And this is within the first three minutes.

Re: This is painful to watch

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:45:06 -0000

Eduardo

It wasn't representative of all gay folks or all folks who were against prop 8 but there were some vandalizations of churches after it passed.

http://www.sacbee.com/295/story/1382472.html

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/24/Police_suspect_Prop_8_behind_vandalism/UPI-64801227547916/

Re: This is painful to watch

Eduardo — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:33:21 -0000

@DougEMI,

I would appreciate If you can link to an article that shows that gay people have vandalized any church because Prop 8. If not, maybe people that are throwing fits because some gay people have gone overboard on their rhetoric should be a little bit more careful showing some restraint themselves.

Re: This is painful to watch

Bruce — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:10:11 -0000

I second that one Doug...i turned it off when he started talking about black people like he was Eldrigde Cleaver...why is it that people dont call him on his bullshit?! It's so obvious, so annoyingly obvious!

Re: This is painful to watch

Eduardo — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:42:18 -0000

Rachel Maddow invites Uncle Pat to spar with him not to give him a great honor. Little sample of Ms. Maddow putting Uncle Pat in his place? Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VoWdMVBvA&feature=related

Barack Obama's move is politically brilliant -anybody that doesn't understand he is an unbelievable talented politician is crazy. And I think that contrary what many people have said it has been positive for gays that we and our closest allies didn't just rolled over this. But let's not kid ourselves thinking that what the President-elect had in mind inviting RW to the inauguration is making that bigot to try to take off a little bit of the edge of how he expresses his bigotry. I shouldn't have to said this but of course the reason he did what he did was NOT to fuck with the gays in any way, shape or form. Barack Obama is NOT a bigot. Gays were an afterthought on this -if a thought at all.

On what the equality side needs to do to in California: it is not 3 or 4 percent, with just 2% we get to 50. There's the natural replacement of old people with young people, there is the slow process of people of previous generations to get familiar with us being their equals, and yes, the offensive gay people in Cali started because the anger of the defeat. I think they have been surveys showing that Prop. 8 would win today. No on Prop 8 was too timid and for months and months didn't put out there gay families making a clear case for their equality. Same thing in Fla, most of the time was (mis)spent on trying to convince people that this was most about straight people losing their partnership arrangement rights. As if we were telling people: I know you are not ready.

Re: This is painful to watch

Doug — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:46:09 -0000

Sorry, can't get through the clip. Scarbrough is just too annoying.

Re: This is painful to watch

brent — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:07:30 -0000

Who gives a shit about Rick Warren, other than to deflate his rhetoric ? Rachel Maddow isn't going to win a pissing contest with Rick Warren. Melissa Etheridge "reaching out to him" is going to have much more impact on public perception and ultimate acceptance IMHO.

The point is that allowing him to pretend in one forum that his rhetoric is just a matter of polite disagreement doesn't deflate it. It allows him and his movement to continue to pretend that their attitudes aren't really hurting people and that has and has had a very real effect on the public perception.

I am not talking about a "pissing contest," whatever that is. I am talking about not playing along with a willfully dishonest debate. The thing I like most about Maddow is that on the infrequent occasions that conservatives agree to come on her show, she mostly doesn't allow them to get away with this kind of stuff. I have even seen a sweetheart like Degeneres, who would normally never allow a single unpleasant moment on her show, make the point pretty firmly with McCain that he is not allowed to get away with the "we just disagree" dodge.

I think Etheridge is allowing that. She is allowing Warren to leverage his more personable characteristics to camoflauge the more strident elements of his approach to this issue.

What you are saying works both ways. Rick Warren also knows that he doesn't win as many people over by getting into a so-called pissing contest. He doesn't get what he wants if people think he's the new Swaggert. So he uses people who are willing to reach out to him to create the impression that he is just a moderate and affable preacher man, who just wants whats best for everybody. He is trying just as hard to sell the idea that his is the moderate position that well meaning people, who really have nothing against homosexuals after all, can take with no consequence. Its a lie, and letting him get away with it, IMHO, doesn't move the debate one inch to the favor of those who want to expand gay rights.

Re: This is painful to watch

DougEMI — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:06:39 -0000

Like sg mentioned, the point of the movement should be to persuade those on the fence. In California, get 3-4% to change their minds, and gay marriage is on the books.

I am sure the more strident think they are keeping it real. Calling out the religous right in the harshest terms possible probably looks good on fundraising letters that these groups send to Susasn Sarandon but I doubt it changes anyone's mind.

Maybe some just want to be seen as more liberal than thou, to win the endless liberal pissing contest of who is the truest progressive. So if that is the goal, then vandalizing churches and calling Obama a bigot is the correct course. However, if getting to 50%+1 of the vote for gay marriage is the aim, then some may see that keeping it real can go wrong.

Re: This is painful to watch

stonetools — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:36:47 -0000

Its not painful to watch, its vigorous discussion between people with widely disparate views-which is what a debate is. I prefer that to seeing an all-liberal or all- conservative panel sit around agreeing and stroking each other. YMMV.

That, BTW, is the whole point of Obama'a inviting Rick Warren-getting people of disparate views up on one podium.

Obama was frequently pilloried by liberals for not being aggressive enough with Clinton and Mc Clain. He charted his own course and proved them wrong by winning a big victory. I suspect that his invitation to Rick Warren will once again prove liberals wrong by being a big public relations victory. If Obama wins significant victories on DADT and civil unions by co-opting Warren and Lowery, then his invitation will be seen as a master stroke. Given the record of his critics, I'm betting on the O - man again.

Re: This is painful to watch

sgwhiteinfla — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:34:24 -0000

Someone made this point last night on Tee Vee

Since Obama announced that Rick Warren was going to do the invocation he has:

Removed anti gay rhetoric on his website.

Released a video to his congregation refuting himself on the issue of if gay marriage is analagous to incest and polygamy

Gone to "Out of the Closet" thrift store to be seen hugging a gay man

Reached out to Melissa Etheridge and apologized from some of the stuff he said and explained that he struggled with Prop 9

President Elect Barack Obama on the other hand has:

Gone on vacation to Hawaii.

Now don't get me wrong, everything Warren has done has been self serving and hypocritical. In the video he out and out lies to his congregation and says he never compared gay marriage to incest even though its all over youtube. I guess McCain isn't the only one who wishes youtube didn't exist. BUT he has had to do these things whether they are sincere or not because thte light has been shined on him. Now in my opinion that is in fact progress because as brucds said its not about changing Warren's mind, its about changing the minds of some of his followers.

Like I said politically the move still looks brilliant.

Re: This is painful to watch

sgwhiteinfla — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:20:50 -0000

To echo Dawn

For those who don't watch Morning Joe on the regular this wasn't some one time appearance by Capehart. He is on there as a frequent guest several times a week and was a fixture there during the campaign season. He always comes off as Scarborough's patsy though and he never passionately defends his own position when he disagrees or when Scarborough is blatantly factually wrong. So I am sorry but I just don't feel all that much sympathy for the guy when in any other situation he would have been an enabler for the same kind of bullshit that Scarborough et all were selling.

As for Rachel Maddow, I wonder if she is going to ban Uncle Pat from her show now since she seems to think that Obama has committed the crime of the century by inviting Rick Warren.

Oh and as for the fashion sense quote from Scarborough, the guy is an asshole but he has complemented Capehart on being a dapper dresser many many times before and the truth is the guy does put a suit and tie together pretty damn well.

Re: This is painful to watch

brucds — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:14:06 -0000

brent - I've heard similiar arguments about the "only way to win" over way too many years from activists who don't seem to be the ones winning in the short term, but are simply the most pissed off. The point isn't even remotely to "win with people like Warren or (god forbid) Elizabeth Hasselback" but with the broader public. Who gives a shit about Rick Warren, other than to deflate his rhetoric ? Rachel Maddow isn't going to win a pissing contest with Rick Warren. Melissa Etheridge "reaching out to him" is going to have much more impact on public perception and ultimate acceptance IMHO. Polarization isn't the best political strategy when you're in a minority position, no matter how justified it may be.

Also, folks focusing on gay rights should be (silently) thanking Obama for this gift just as the Prop 8 protests were about to fade in public consciousness.

Re: This is painful to watch

brent — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:57:24 -0000

Interesting perspective from Melissa Etheridge:

Yeah, I disagree. I have seen Etheridge try in a few forums to strike a conciliatory tone on this. But it obscures the debate and really allows Warren off the hook for some of his more inflammatory and dishonest rhetoric. Its nice that he told her that he regrets the comments about pedophilia but he didn't make them by accident and it wasn't the only time he's made them and I'll bet her anything she likes that it won't be the last time.

He poisoned the well with a number of outright lies about what the state of law in California would do. He poisoned it with repeated and deliberate attempts to paint homosexuals as a class of perverted deviants. It is a mistake to let him even halfway off the hook because he claims that he really likes gays after all. The only way to win with people like Warren and Elizabeth Hasselback ( who repeated a lot of the same bullshit before Etheridge's appearance on The View) is to make them embrace the hatefulness of their own rhetoric when it counts. That is, it is important to make it clear that they are not just repeating something that people are saying or passive actors in some minor disagreement. They are deliberately acting in a way that has real consequences for the lives of the real people that they are now face to face with. They don't get to just play polite when it suits them.

Re: This is painful to watch

brucds — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:56:20 -0000

"Jonathan Capehart, Rachel Maddow and no one else at MSNBC can lecture PEO and black folks on Rick Warren or any gay rights issue as long as Pat "Thank whitey for slavery and section 8" Buchanan has a seat at the MSNBC table."

That's an interesting point. Not sure that I wholly agree with it, but when Rachel Maddow features Buchanan on her show as "Uncle Pat", it is a bit of a stretch to watch her current campaign for purity on Obama's part. (I happen to think Buchanan - while obviously a total ideological neanderthal - is the most interesting, and often the most cogent political "pundit" on MSNBC simply because he's been witness to so much Presidential and Beltway history. Personally I'd rather have a drink with the crazy old coot than with Rachel Maddow, who I find overly earnest for someone who works in the absurd landscape of cable news. He's got stories about Hunter Thompson and Murray Kempton. She's got stories about Air America and Chris Matthews. Not much of a contest.

Re: This is painful to watch

Don — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:53:55 -0000

Forgot about the white bigot. What is Capehart doing to confront hatred of gays in the Black community? Remember, it's not only white people who can be bigoted.

Re: This is painful to watch

Dawn — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:32:23 -0000

I would ask why does a black gay man consistently accept the invitation to sit along side a white man who thinks black folks should be grateful for slavery, joining him in inaccurate, petty and always proven wrong analysis of Barack Obama? Jonathan Capehart made the mistake of believing he was an acceptable negro to Pat Buchanan and Joe Scaborough when in fact he's nothing more, like all of their rotating tokens, I mean black pundits, a shield to attack President elect Obama and not be called racist.

Jonathan Capehart, Rachel Maddow and no one else at MSNBC can lecture PEO and black folks on Rick Warren or any gay rights issue as long as Pat "Thank whitey for slavery and section 8" Buchanan has a seat at the MSNBC table.

Re: This is painful to watch

B-Rob — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:19:52 -0000

TNC -- I thought Capehart kicked booty! Notice Pat never answered why gay marriage impacted him except for the ridiculous "it redefines marriage" response. Capehart's comment on the "moving goalposts" -- where pretty much the entire mainstream accepts civil unions only eight years after that being the death-knell of society -- was also a strong point.

Re: This is painful to watch

Tessa — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:47:56 -0000

I'm totally late here, but had to chime in. I actually thought Scarborough was the real disgusting one. His berating of Capehart over the civil rights analogy seemed like an attempt to change the subject and confuse viewers about what Capehart was really saying. I hate it when people do that when I'm arguing with them. Oh, and did you catch the part when Scarborough said something like, "I like you, your a smart dresser." Capehart looked like he either wanted to slap Joe upside the head, or hide under the table. But he held his own, and yes, looked great doing it (very handsome man). And btw...that Mica(sp?) chick might as well be a lamp on the table.