The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:07:57 -0000

The LDS may have poured in a lot of money for their ads on Prop. 8, but as a Californian myself, I agree with those who said that they may not have been the influencing factor in why people decided to vote down Prop. 8.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:59:48 -0000

@brucds

Bullshit - first, any group that was officially racist as of the late 1970s has a problem. You claim they're "racially inclusive" - I see them as opportunistic.

Okay, cynical Sam!

I apologize for my humorous jest because you sound really passionate about this issue. However, do you not even concede the possibility for change and forgiveness? Tolerance is a two way street. You harp on people being intolerant.. However at the same time, here you go, being intolerant of a group who made mistakes in the past and are trying to rectify it.

I don't know what the LDS' motives were about renouncing racism, but I am not going to assume that they are purely opportunistic, either. Give people the benefit of doubt!

As far as their homophobia..maybe that is something they need to work out as well. However, anger and intolerance doesn't work in combating intolerance and ignorance- it feeds it.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:46:54 -0000

It's really hypocritical to judge people on their intolerance by being intolerant yourself.

A major misunderstanding that people have about religion and faith is that they look at the actions of people within that religion and attach it to the 'faith'.

I believe that all religions have one thing in common- they have faith in humanity, peace and love. I believe this as a Christian and we all know that Christians aren't perfect. But that is the point. "Christians" aren't perfect. The same goes for Muslims, LDS, NOI - all people within a religion are fallible. However, the one thing we have in common is that we are trying to be better than who we are, we just have different beliefs on how to get there.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

kayahead — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:03:31 -0000

So, here’s the thing…you guys seem to be arguing back and forth agressively with no one having any facts other than a car ride with a nice guy or heebie-jeebie stuff you saw on tv. Now, whether or not they have so-called moved on from their racist beliefs of the 70’s, doesn’t matter. It wasn’t just a distrust of blacks and browns that drove them, but they believed that this was fact backed up by the bible. For instance, there were two schools of thought on the origin of blacks – one was that when God cursed Cain and forced him to wander the earth with his mark, the mark was blackness; the other theory was that the night that Noah was drunk and cursed his son for looking on his nakedness and mocking it, that curse was blackness. Given their biblically backed belief that blackness is indeed a God-given curse, you just don’t move away from that in a decade or two (or 3), especially when you have people heading the church who were raised to believe that way. Secondly, you wonder why they have moved so aggressively into the 3rd world? I don’t know precisely, but I would guess that it has much more to do with the strict tithing structure (10% across the board) they have than deep deep love for a formerly accursed people. Finally, before you out-of-hand dismiss the very powerful role the LDS church played in mobilizing money and opinion in the Prop 8 campaign, why don’t you try googling it, or checking out Andrew Sullivan’s archives? You will find a wealth of evidence that will erase even your skepticism

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Lee — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:33:27 -0000

It's my understanding that the Mormon church did pretty much bankroll Prop 8, and it's probably fair to say that without their influence, the outcome would have been different. I have a pretty low opinion of the folks in charge and their official stances on a lot of issues. That said, it is TOTALLY unfair to hate on every single person who happens to be a Mormon because of the official doctrine of their church. That's like assuming that every single person who is Catholic thinks exactly like the pope, when everybody knows there are millions of Catholics who use birth control, etc. There are lots of lovely people who are Mormons who are accepting of gays, believe in women's rights, and otherwise don't buy into every single nutty thing the leaders of the church preach. Also, I've known more than one black Mormon, and I believe the vast majority of Mormons are very ashamed of the church's previous stance on minorities and totally disclaim it.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:06:48 -0000

Aubrey - This was supposed to stop - guess you didn't get the message. In any event, you'ver got some pretty poisonous notions about the Jews. Stick to facts.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Aubrey Maturin — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:30:14 -0000

Yes and the Roman Catholic Church is an evil organization that killed and tortured Jews and "heretics" (didn't they JUST apologize for Galileo?), was complicit in the Nazi genocide of Jews in WWII, still perpetuates official ostracism of homosexuals, and subjugated women as second class humans over centuries (we'll also just ignore the whole degenerate Renaissance era papacy). And the Jews; well they're just cultish, self-excluding odd balls who still follow ancient nomadic tribal traditions that are just bizarre and have no place in modern life . Much, much stranger than the Mormons. And boy, don't get me started on the Hindus and their nutty elephant gods and such.

Anyway, I think we all agree that Glenn Beck could seriously be insane and needs medication (or get off medication). The dude is weird and mockworthy enough without having to pick on his professed spiritual life. Much better to pick on this one guy rather than an entire religion. Although I will feel bad if if turns out the guy has a medical condition that made him breakdown like that on national TV - again and again.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Incertus(Brian) — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:16:23 -0000

Hart Seely has done to Beck what he did to Rumsfeld--take some of his more colorful rants and turned them into "poems." Hey Ta-Nehisi--maybe here's where you get your Friday poem from this week? :)

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:02:44 -0000

Please let it go guys. You aren't going to agree and you're far afield.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:50:40 -0000

Bullshit - first, any group that was officially racist as of the late 1970s has a problem. You claim they're "racially inclusive" - I see them as opportunistic. I guess the GOP is "racially inclusive" as well, by that standard. As for gay marriage, first of all we both know that Barack Obama doesn't campaign against gay marriage in the sense we're talking about. So far as I know he opposed Prop 8. You and I both know he wouldn't have voted for the proposition, so you're reaching here and it's pretty weak. And the Mormons didn't simply take a position based on their religious beliefs, they waged a high-profile campaign that was founded on deliberate disinformation. Aside from the nonsense about the threat to hetero marriage supposedly posed by gays getting married - which is ridiculous on its face - they spread totally false stuff about churches being forced to accept gay marriage. The lies were intrinsic to their propaganda. I'm offended by anyone at this juncture who attempts to take away a civil right of any group - this was a given right that the state supreme court adjudicated as applying to all Californians, regardless of sexual preference. The Prop 8 gang campaigned to withdraw it. Sort of like someone waging a political campaign against school integration after 1954. I don't expect everyone to be on the front lines of civil rights but, yes, I find this retrograde stuff offensive and bigoted. If there's any distinction I'm making here it's between relatively passive voters who took the bait and groups that really should know better - in that they're supposedly founded on loving one's neighbor - leading the charge.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

DaveinHackensack — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:36:12 -0000

You continue to call Mormons "bigoted". Why? Because they renounced racist aspects of their religion decades ago and are racially inclusive today? Or is it because they are against gay marriage? If being against gay marriage makes one a bigot, than Barack Obama, and most other Americans fall into that category too. In fact, most Californians fall into that category, as the Prop. 8 vote demonstrated.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:17:29 -0000

Also, you might want to tell me where my facts about the Mormons beliefs and history are wrong, rather than toss out lines about "rage." I'm dismissive and annoyed by this crowd, within which Beck is not as anomalous as you seem to assume - and if "polite company" is all about holdiing one's tongue and withholding facts about groups that actively promote discrimination, I'll go Dorothy Parker on you and choose to hang out with the folks who value honesty over phony decorum.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:09:31 -0000

AM & DIH - Mormons are, aside from their cultish aspects, aggressive bigots and they launched a full-on propaganda offensive against a minority group using the political process in California. They obviously aren't wholly responsible for the passage of Prop 8, but they "have a cross to bear." And if disgust with an outfit that's overtly bigoted and has a history of using the Bible to rationalize overt racism and sexism, long after that was a cultural "norm", is problematic with you folks, so be it. No, I'm not "open-minded" when it comes to that shit. I wouldn't parade that kind of blind tolerance as a virtue.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

DaveinHackensack — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:03:42 -0000

You don't sound very open-minded or tolerant, but that's your cross to bear.

And are you are seriously blaming the Mormons for a majority of Californians voting against gay marriage? You mean they just steamrolled the rich, media-savvy, pro-gay marriage liberals in Hollywood and Silicon Valley? Please.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Aubrey Maturin — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:05:47 -0000

That's very harsh commentary against Mormons. I think it's sad and alarming that it's so acceptable to rage against this group in polite company.

If Glenn Beck turned around a life of substance abuse and failure by becoming a cleaned-up Mormon, then more power to him and them. Good for him that he's just a blubbering buffoon who gives Mormons a bad name, as opposed to a self-destructive poison to his family and friends as he presumably was when he was going through his stuff.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:44:52 -0000

It's a guy named Cleon Skousen, who was a Mormon elder, worked for the FBI in the fifties and was close to the Birch Society. He was one of those characters who believed David Rockefeller was in league with the Communists to rule the world. Very weird stuff - Beck was peddling one of Skousen's books on his 9/12 show - every audience member got a copy.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:26:52 -0000

That last was in reference to Prop 8, in which the Mormons played a quite despicable role leading and funding the charge.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:23:34 -0000

The Mormons official doctrine was explicitly racist until the late '70s. I don't consider any organization that was officially racist until 30-odd years ago as having much in the way of moral credibility. They gave it up because it made them look bad, and since they've dropped the racist theology - which was done by inexplicable fiat from the center - like all of these proselytizing sects they see places like Latin America as growth opportunities. Yes, they send out those young "Men in Black" to proselytize globally. And they do have a major presence in the Bay Area, wandering around in pairs, knocking on doors and passing out tracts at BART stations. I once walked up to an African-American woman who was listening to their idiotic spiel and noted FYI that the outfit prosyletizing had an explicitly racist theology until the late '70s and she thanked me and told them "no thanks." I have no affection for this crowd. I think most young LDS guys do a turn at this missionary thing. Maybe I'm a jerk, but I'm not impressed. Their recent history, crank theology and cutlishness strikes me as very, very creepy. Their sexism - dating back to the polygamy, which is still tolerated in Utah and rampant within some sects at the margins of LDS - is well documented. The LDS governing body is now, on average, older than the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, which is starting to look rational by comparison. I know they are doing "multicultural outreach" and I'm sure that a well-funded cult like LDS can make inroads. Incidentally, most of the NOI folks I have met are very nice, industrious, etc. etc. That doesn't gain much respect on the level of an intellectual foundation or even their psychological health. I judge religions not on the basis of pure rationality vs. faith, but on whether they are extremely doctrinal and exclusive in their theology and their claims for their church. LDS doesn't pass that test, IMHO. Also, as a Californian I have to say that these jerks spent a hell of a lot of money ramming their anti-gay bigotry down our throats. They can go to hell - and probably will - so far as I'm concerned.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

dragonflyingash — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:12:48 -0000

I don't know but it just feels like a lot of those people have some serious Civil War/Revolutionary War nostalgia about rising up against the machine. It's almost like they don't understand they they usually ARE the machine. It's sort of hilariously frightening and sort of reminiscent of that Alexandra Pelosi doc "Right America Feeling Wronged".

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:59:26 -0000

I have no idea - but as long as we've got guys like Colbert on our side, I'm not putting any money on Beck's side of the "argument", such as it is. He's obviously staking out territory to the right of Joe Scarborough, which is a shrinking slice of Americana. I actually think he helps to discredit FOX News, he's so transparently nutty. I guess the counter-argument is that he's dangerous because he makes Bill O'Reilly seem sane by comparison.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

DaveinHackensack — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:53:36 -0000

"Like NOI, they've tacked a lot of bizarre Made-in-USA shit onto one of the ancient religions born in the Middle East and created an insular cult-like organization that codified racism and sexism into their theology, among other things."

I won't comment on their theology, but the racism, sexism and insularity you mention isn't consistent with my (albeit, limited) experiences with Mormons. For work once I had to drive from San Francisco to Fresno and back with a Mormon from Salt Lake City -- and not just any Mormon, but someone who was fairly established in the church. We had plenty of time to talk on the trip, and I got to ask all sorts of questions about him and his religion. A few things I took away from that experience that make me question what you wrote.

First, this man had spent two years doing missionary work in Japan, and he mentioned to me how a lot of the church's recent growth was coming from Latin America. The Mormons send their missionaries all over the world, and the proselytize in a lot of non-white areas. If they were racists, why would they welcome so many non-whites to their faith?

Second, this man's territory covered San Francisco, where he had to do business with a number of gay people. I asked him about that, and his answer -- I forget the exact words -- was all about tolerance, we're all sinners, it's not his place to judge, etc.

Third, we had some time to kill before our flights out of SFO on the way back, and he gave me a tour of the Mormon temple in Oakland, explaining stuff along the way. Not very insular.

Can't say the subject of sexism came up explicitly, but he was happily married with five kids, and seemed quite affectionate with his wife over the phone.

Overall, he seemed like an incredibly decent person, which is true of the handful of other Mormons I've met. I hate to bring up South Park twice in one thread, but I thought their episode on Mormons was pretty much on target. They mocked the religion's theology (although, to be fair, all religions require leaps of faith), but they also showed a typically happy, well-adjusted Mormon family. As far as I'm concerned, what someone believes is less important than what they do, and a lot of Mormons support each other, live honestly and industriously, have no hate for anyone, and donate generously to charity. More power to them.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

DC Fem — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:53:26 -0000

"He also peddles some book by one of those octegenarian cranks - this one now deceased - who run his church, a guy who was tied in with the John Birch Society. Damaged goods, any way you look at it."

Rushdoony, perhaphs?

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

DC Fem — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:51:10 -0000

I clicked on the link you provided and browsed the comments. Are they stockpiling ammo because they're planning to fire on Fort Sumter again?

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

Stacy — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:44:01 -0000

I hope you're right. I'm sure some people watch Glenn Beck because he's a clown, but I used to only switch over to him for a segment. I don't think those types of people are watching entire episodes. I fear that you are giving viewers of Beck too much credit. I have met people who appeared to be intelligent people who have claimed to enjoy his radio program. I think some people are under the impression that Glenn Beck speaks 'truth to power,' or something like that. His appeal is seriously bizarre.

Re: The Sanity Of Glenn Beck

brucds — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:34:53 -0000

Apparently Beck draws about 2,200,000 viewers on average - with about a quarter in the 18-54 demographic. I don't know how much of that audience is the same people every night, but those shows do tend to have fairly devoted fans. So maybe 550,000+ folks who aren't at least close to becoming part of the Barcalounge set. And how many of these aren't watching in that compulsive spectator way some people watch Flava of Love, The View or a good train wreck ? Beck gets some of the highest ratings on FOX, but I'm betting that a lot of that attraction isn't because he's the most credible and compelling, but because he's the biggest clown.