The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Problem Of Apology

Re: The Problem Of Apology

MikeSchilling — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:03:00 -0000

Here, for contrast, is a really, really good apology.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Brent — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:08:49 -0000

I'm still trying to guess your point... Am I to be surprised that people of "privilege" play the same social games as their economic "inferiors"?

My point was simply to amplify what calexical was saying and I thought it was clear enough: That my personal experience is that these particular expressions with regard to women can be guided by a shared need to establish both one's privilege and self esteem. In the case of these two, I found their behavior quite obsessive and it thus caused me to understand something about why people might act this way that I hadn't realized before.

Now perhaps I wasn't clear enough on

1. just how obsessed these guys were about how much respect they expected from every single person they came into contact with

2. that their talk about women wasn't just the normal guy shit talk. That is, they seemed to operate under the assumption that they could have sex with anyone they wanted. It would have never occurred to them that Cameron Diaz might reject them

but in any case, like you, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. You seem to believe that this is meant to be a comment on class. That is, you seem to place a lot of weight on the class of the people I was discussing but of course privilege (not sure why you felt to need to put the word in quotes) is about much more than class and class was not the point of my story. If your point is that people of all classes can be crude, consider the point taken.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Fletch — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:07:06 -0000

Brent-

I once had a "burrito lunch" with two of the many "blue-collar" black males I worked with- one of whom was my direct supervisor- We settled on two main topics:

1)Whether we were receiving the proper level of respect from those around us. (Office staff vs. Warehouse staff, Mgmt vs. Supervisor vs. Employee, even a "perceived Mgmt. bias" between Shipping/Receiving- me and Harold worked Receiving, Kelvin was in Shipping)

2)Whether various famous "babes" were worthy of having sex with us. (I wouldn't even hit Cameron Diaz with your dick...)

I'm still trying to guess your point... Am I to be surprised that people of "privilege" play the same social games as their economic "inferiors"?

Re: The Problem Of Apology

sporcupine — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:54:09 -0000

I do indeed know it well.

But having been raised by a mutant strain of white Southerner, I know all varieties hate being accused of bad manners. Folks over about 60 may have learned explicit justifications for discourtesy to non-whites, but most younger ones don't have an ideology that makes it okay: they just do this stuff because "everyone" does.

If you call the younger ones rude, indecent, tacky, and vulgar, they deeply want it not to be true. Even better, if you can do it from the heart of your own faith, tell them they're an embarrassment to the Gospel.

Their humanity isn't utterly gone. It's well buried under a bad upbringing, bad politics, and bad educations, but it's in there--and courtesy and Christianity are the quickest routes to find it.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

eric k — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:39:50 -0000

I think your giving him way too much benefit of the doubt here.

So he sees a story about an escaped gorilla and being a creationist the first thing he thinks of is the "your grandpa was an ape joke" fine I suppose I can buy that, but appropo of nothing the first person he thinks of to make the joke about is Michelle Obama?

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Matt D — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:35:18 -0000

Same experience and interpretation here.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

BreakerBaker — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:31:09 -0000

As I said, the only real distinction I am making is between the active and passive voice. This "apology" is in the active voice whereas the classic non-apology is always in the passive voice. In this apology, the subject is "I" and the transitive verb/action being performed is "offend," and the direct object, the thing on which the action is being performed is "anybody." We can all take exception with his phrasing it as a hypothetical, but it is still phrased in a way that accepts that HE was the one who offended. It is not in the passive voice, which would deflect responsibility by leaving open the interpretation that it is your fault for taking what I said in the wrong way (i.e. I am sorry if YOU were offended by what I said.).

Re: The Problem Of Apology

jasperjava — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:03:24 -0000

Of course, you're aware that the classic manifestation of Southern chivalry does not extend civil courtesies to members of the non-white races. There may have been amendments to that code in the last few decades, but I haven't seen them.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Kylopod — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:54:40 -0000

While I would surmise that Michelle Obama believes in evolution, has she ever talked about the issue in public?

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Andrew — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:51:11 -0000

I've done my fair share of time battling creationists.

The "Is your grandpa an ape?" slur is a fairly common one that they throw out at anyone who believes in evolution and it's entirely possible that he didn't pause to consider the racist implications of suggesting that a black woman is an ape. [1]

That said, I can't say that I'm unhappy to see a creationist talking point backfire so utterly and spectacularly.

[1] Of course, we all apes, but that sort of nuance is really not relevant.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Kylopod — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:39:19 -0000

People have mentioned George Allen without pointing out that he made what has to be one of the ultimate nonapologies of all time:

"I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the misinterpretation of my remarks."

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Juba — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:15:43 -0000

I agree 100% Gramsci.

"YOU'RE G-DDAMN RIGHT I ORDERED THE RACIST EMAIL!!"

Re: The Problem Of Apology

LCrawfty — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:42:02 -0000

I think the point about whether famous women are worthy of having sex with them really points to how the media treats female performers in general. Most people involved in making films are male and thus they present and treat female actors a certain way in that process. The media in general is dominated by sexist attitudes, so the magazine articles, entertainment news pieces, etc. tend to use a fast and low set of standards for how these women and girls should be treated. Also, thanks to the internet it is more widely accepted to critique these women's looks when they are off screen or in close up shots, this is known as "body snarking." Three dimensional women are broken down into broad stereotypes, then one dimensional symbols, then images, and then just their individual body parts, by the end of it they're not really people you need to respect.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

LCrawfty — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:37:50 -0000

Re: The Problem Of Apology

eric k — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:34:35 -0000

Cleary he was grasping for a straw and he knows that Michelle Obama being a High School graduate who doesn't need to pander to evangelical funadamentalists must have sometime said she believed in evolution.

Of course being a southern politician who has to constantly appeal to evangelical fundamentalists he has spent so much time mocking evolutiuon that he forgot that no one but ignorant evangelical fundamentalists thinks evolution means we descended from Gorillas, so unfortunately for him there will not be any quotes by Michelle Obama saying we descended from Gorillas.

Of course that is me giving him the most benmefit of the doubt I can, for all I know he may be an ignorant evangelical fundamentalist who thinks eveolution means we descended from Apes...

Re: The Problem Of Apology

klg19 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:21:23 -0000

Sorry, I don't buy that. The "if I offended anybody" construction implies that he believes that there are people who wouldn't be offended by this. And, clearly, there are--like Eric Davis, who thinks everybody says something stupid sometimes.

But the "if I offended anyone" is classic and depends on the onus being on those sensitive souls who might actually take offense.

On another note, TNC, I posted the NY Daily News article to my own FB page before I saw this post, but I appended to it your two recent posts about the virtues of political correctness. All DePass had to do to avoid this kerfuffle is think for a moment--a fleeting moment--about what his line might sound like to people who don't look like him. A fleeting moment of empathy. PC has its problems, but the underlying empathy, as TNC pointed out, ain't one of them.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

rikyrah — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:16:13 -0000

BWA HA HA HA HA HA

I'm just in the mood where this is frigging hilarious to me.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:15:17 -0000

Just linked and posted.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Sorn — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:13:03 -0000

I wish I had your clarity in this. I don't always know if I've offended and so sometimes its better to offer an apology with a conditional than to let things go. And don't worry, IMO you didn't sound harsh at all.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Gramsci — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:07:37 -0000

"When I asked her if she understood the controversial nature of the photo, Goforth would only say she felt very bad about accidentally sending it to the wrong list."

You see? It wasn't that the pic was racist, it was that she sent it to the wrong people. Glad we cleared that up.

I do think there's a little Col. Jessup going on here-- I think Rusty and company subconsciously want to be "caught," part of them wants to air out the racist jokes as a way of reclaiming the public sphere. They are tired of having to press one for English, tired of being "sensitive" about race-- this is their country dammit, and they can joke about black people if they want to. They cannot help themselves after a certain point.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Deborah — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:54:35 -0000

At some point, hypothetically, the GOP would find having Senators who go embarrassingly off-message as their second tier spokespeople to be as problematic as having the first tier be Rush, Dick, and Newt. (The first tier don't hold office; the second tier do, so the "he has no formal position in the party" line fails.)

But it seems like there are these lonely young Republicans explaining that they need to attract more diversity to build the party for the new millenium, blindly missing that the first and second tier spokespeople for the party are still vigorously driving people away.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Jennifer D. — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:53:28 -0000

When I am apologizing to someone, there is usually a reason. They act hurt or offended, or tell me that they are hurt or offended. Therefore, there is no question that my actions have caused some kind of unrest in that person, whether or not it was intentional. So, it is not a question of "if" I have hurt or offended them, I obviously have, even if I didn't mean to. I expect to be judged by and accountable for my actions, rather than my intentions.

The "if factor" only applies in the case of binge or blackout drinking, as alluded to by Stacy.

I apologize if I sounded harsh.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:53:25 -0000

It keeps happening. Amazing. People get caught. And they keep doint it. And it isn't like private citizens. It's politicos.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

calexical — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:51:15 -0000

Certain subcultures do exacerbate this ugly instinct a lot more than others. Heavily macho, insiders-only clubs like finance and professional sports are repeat offenders, but it shows up all the time in sectors of the mass political and geek worlds too. It's a sort of self-perpetuating cycle of misogyny and fronting that seems to show up a lot more when you're dealing with a group of people with a heavily-specialized and highly-rewarded (when you reach the top, anyway) skillset, and it's really freaking weird.

Re: The Problem Of Apology

Craig — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:43:17 -0000

That should be this link:

http://www.nashvilleistalking.com/2009/06/sen-diane-blacks-r-gallatin-legislative-aid-circulates-racist-email/