The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The politics of The Wire (again)

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

MQ — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:01:19 -0000

Pete J.'s comment pretty much sums it up, huh?

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Lizzy L — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:42:59 -0000

I just started watching The Wire -- I'm still on Season 1 -- and I don't mind the spoilers, because the genius of this show is in the presentation: the writing, the staging, the acting -- my God, the acting. Amazing stuff.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Pete J — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 02:51:19 -0000

Wow, it's great to see this much discussion on The Wire long after the end of the show (and Generation Kill). When is Simon's next project up?

I really don't think The Wire can be a blank slate on which anyone can project their own political slant. And I definitely don't think you can argue that TW is conservative at heart.

In my opinion Season 4 is the biggest argument against a conservative idea that in America, anyone who really sets their mind to it and works hard can rise to great heights. The four boys showed they had many skills to offer society, and the desire to do so, yet only one- Namond has a chance to attend college and leave West Baltimore.

Similarly, libertarians rejoiced when Bunny Colvin legalized drugs in Hamsterdam. Yet, this wasn't the freedom from government that makes up the libertarian utopia. It was merely new regulations about where people could or could not sell drugs. Nothing was utopian about Hamsterdam.

Simon attacked unions in season 2. The Democrats' longest running interest group could not stem the tide of capitalism and deindustrialization.

And don't even get Simon started on centrist politicians. Other commenters have mentioned the false hope embodied in Carcetti's New Day or the thinly disguised corrupt political machine operated by Clay Davis. Simon couldn't even muster up much vocal support for Obama in various interviews. His view on politics was that "I think it is actually a little bit overly moneyed and broken."

Nor can we say the show is leftist, though I believe that if Simon lands anywhere on the spectrum this is the place.

Ultimately, I think the show doesn't accommodate all these political views because reality accommodates all political views. Rather, the show accommodates none of these views because reality can't be seen through Republican or Democrat glasses. It's messy but beautiful, and that's The Wire's brilliance.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Tony Comstock — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:42:01 -0000

I have, once or twice, been charged with telling tough stories about people caught in dire, even hopeless circumstances. From that perspective I can think of a lot of words to describe The Wire, but "cynical" is certainly not one of them.

If anything, over the years I've wondered how Simon and Burns can keep so much love, compassion and empathy alive in their hearts without the burden of those feelings overwhelming them.

The housing project guy comes of as having an axe to grind, and the sound of the steel on the stone prevents him from hearing anything else.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

HUT — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:22:48 -0000

an interesting debate on whether 'The Wire' was too cynical/nihilistic in a couple pieces in Dissent:

"In Defense of The Wire"

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=1237

that piece is a response to this:

"Is The Wire Too Cynical?"

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=1236

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Tony Comstock — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:48:56 -0000

Exactly. Omar's end was the Bunk/Omar convo come home.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

MQ — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:29:55 -0000

Wow, the commenters here are great. I had a lot of things to say, but after reading the thread found them all said better and more deeply by othes before me.

Despite the host's injunction not to go personal, I'll say there's a huge difference between Douthat and Goldberg. Goldberg is a stone propagandist, the only way he sees anything is in terms of how it helps a narrow cause (the power of the Republican party, not even real conservatism). Douthat is far from perfect but he's is genuinely thoughtful and someone it's worth taking seriously.

this quote from above was right on--

I think it's safe to say that any critique of liberalism contained in the show is a critique of the "conservative liberalism" of mainstream Democratic pols. It's a fairly radical critique, not a conservative one. (Ex. the failure of the War on Drugs, which is one of those Establishment Liberal-Establishment Conservative pacts that generally don't work out so well. Kind of like No Child Left Behind and the war in Iraq.)

You can't mistake the Democratic party for the real left. But one problem is that the left, while it has serious critical chops, is short on solutions that work within the power structure we have now. That's one conclusion that harmonizes well with the Wire.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

dana — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:06:31 -0000

I actually thought that Omar's death was handled perfectly. It would have been just a little too cute if he'd died in a blazing shootout with Marlo, or not died after some shenanigans, walking off into the darkness. I thought his death pounded home a good message: this guy's been set up as a mythical character, a good guy, even, but in the end, he's a guy who's involved in the street as much as anyone else, and that's not the sort of thing that normally gets poetic endings or happily-ever-afters.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

zunguzungu — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:30:34 -0000

Isn't Goldberg also completely wrong about how culture actually determines destiny? The only kid of the four who thrives is the only one who gets pegged as a corner kid, while the kids with the most potential get more or less destroyed by society. He's so convinced that the problem with the street is street culture that he mis-remembers what actually happens in the show.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

ed — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:57:54 -0000

Lively discussion of this topic over at Roy's Joint:

http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2008_11_30_archive.html#5987839264542661923

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Robert — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:13:56 -0000

As a semi-regular commenter, I hope nobody minds if I plug an upcoming conference about The Wire to be held at the University of Michigan Jan. 29-30th. The conference promises to be a great time and will include contributions by many esteemed scholars, including Mark Anthony Neal, and will also include a keynote event with Sonja Sohn (Kima) and Clark Johnson (director and also Gus in season 5).

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/heart_of_the_city/heart_of_the_city

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

AMT — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:25:31 -0000

I initially thought the serial killer plot line was a bit much, but what redeemed it, I think, was the way in which it spun inexorably out of McNulty and Freamon's control. The thing took on a life of its own. It illustrated a point that the show made more than once during its run, that within a system as broken as what the Baltimore of the show was, acts born of good intentions can not only fail to address the problems they were intended to but the could create problems unforeseeable to actors even as they solved the problems they were meant to address.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

alli — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:02:41 -0000

MEB, I respect that - I loved that Simon's love of Baltimore shone through in every scene. Even at its grittiest and most despondent, he evoked such pathos because it was rooted in his love for Baltimore.

I didn't extrapolate any truths about America - only about New Orleans, and certainly not everything was the same. It worked on a metaphorical level, especially after Katrina.

That same pathos, though, and that same love no matter how bad it gets, thats hows about we feel about 'dat 504.' New Orleans is also about your neighborhood. "Where'd ya go to school" means your high school. The ward you rep, the project you lived in, your neighborhood, your family name, your church parish, no matter your race or class, it all matters. It's a parochial town where people really don't ever leave.

I am excited for Treme, because while it can't approximate Simon's feelings for Baltimore, I hope that it will be NOLA true in the same sense that The Wire was for Baltimore.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

MEB — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:31:14 -0000

I guess I am uncommitted on the various readings enabled by the seasons of the Wire. Sure. Why not? Where I must draw the line, though, is at extrapolating America from Baltimore. I cannot even begin to enumerate the ways in which topoi do not substitute from an invested postru theoretical position. But as someone from a particular NEIGHBORHOOD in Baltimore (and neighborhoods MATTER in Baltimore), I amn't buying THAT bullshit. To instantiate Baltimore synechdocally for America is to just not get Baltimore. That was not an L.A. or an NYC or a Chicago series or an Urban Write Large and Small series, hons. That was of and from Baltimore, genitively speaking in all senses.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Tony Comstock — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:29:38 -0000

"The question is how one defines "pragmatic"..."

How? Buy for a dollar, sell for two is a good enough definition of pragmatic for me.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Jonathan — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:27:29 -0000

I live in New Orleans and there's a group of us here who adore the show because we consider New Orleans to be the show's metaphorical setting. B'more and NOLA have a lot in common, demographically, economically, geographically (ports, etc).

Word. Baltimore also reminds me a lot of Oakland (yeee!)

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Leee — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:24:16 -0000

This is of a piece with the "conservatives" who are making joyful noises about Obama's cabinet.

brucds, I thought you were going to launch a "Which characters correspond to the new admin" meme, but seeing as you veered away, allow me to kick off this stupid but fun game.

Omar - Governed by personal if vicious sense of ethics, not a stranger to violence, physically marred by injury: RAHM EMANUEL.

McNutty - Mouth constantly gets him into trouble: BIDEN.

Lester - Keeps an even keel, smarter than everyone in the room: COOL BARRY SMOOTH.

Carver - Tainted by involvement in ethically questionable dealings at the behest of his superiors: HOLDER.

Prez - Forced to adapt to a new role after begin exiled from the group because he couldn't keep his gun from discharging: BUBBA.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:20:48 -0000

Here is what I meant about it not having a conservative read. First off we are going ot have to learn to remove republican and democrat labels when we are talking about liberal/progressive vs conservative. Second of all there was a comment above about liberals believing in inherent good. I would say its very dubious to assign that as a liberal principle. In fact most liberals want rules and regulations in place to make sure that even if someone WANTS to be evil they either won't be able to or they will get punished for it. Conservatives want the government to get out of the way in just about every situation and let things work themselves out. To me thats more of an indication in the belief of an inherent good in people that would preclude them from say making tons of money on credit default swaps just because they know they aren't regulated.

Also most of the programs that we see that actually worked in the show were liberal/progressive. There aint a conservative on earth that would have thought of having the safe zones for drug dealing and drug using. And they for damm sure wouldn't have initiated needle swapping and other health and social services in the same area. You look at the season where they had the plan at the schools and slowly but surely things changed. They werent handing out vouchers to send kids to better schools, they were trying something new in the schools that were failing.

As for the politics hell every politician on the Wire republican or democrat was shady, some shadier than others but still. Carcetti didn't live up to his campaign hype but he was definitely TRYING to do the right thing most of the time. I never saw him as being shady or having shady motives so i didn't see him as a bad guy even when he made side deals and did somewhat shady stuff.

The fact that they had a gay couple who also had a child to me again would be decidedly un conservative. Something a lot of people don't point out either is that for Omar being gay he was really in love with the youngin that they strung up. And even for all of his thugging you really didnt see him being promiscuous and I know that would drive social conservatives CRAZY.

I guess my test on the conservative thing would be how would these people react if they HAD to watch every episode of the Wire ever made?

1. James Dobson

2. Newt Gingrich

3. Virgil Goode

4. Bill Krisol

5. Tom Coburn

Ok Ok Ok, I know those guys don't speak for all conservatives, but I would still love to see them have to watch the wire. I would bet more than one of them would have their head explode.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

girondistnyc — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:11:23 -0000

brucds -- I would agree absolutely that pragmatic liberalism (in the modern American sense) can embody Burkean caution and avoidance of hubris to a greater degree than much of mainstream GOP thought today. The question is how one defines "pragmatic"...

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

tinisoli — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:11:01 -0000

The absence of schmaltzy hope or happy endings in Season 5 of "The Wire" did not indicate that nihilism was afoot or that David Simon is a nihilist. If there are any adjectives that should top the list of adjectives used to describe or sum up that show, they are "critical" and "honest". Period. All along, from season to season, The Game remained the same. Given the murderous, destructive nature of the game, it was clear and logical that the show would not and could not end with honor and honesty without many people, from Lester Freamon to Chris to Snoop to Dookie to Omar, taking a serious fall of one form or another. Why? Because the whole point was, these systems suck and, indeed, life is no picnic, even if we somehow build a healthy society. If people walked away from the final episode thinking that things were getting better, or that someone had "won", or Marlo had been neatly taken down, then we'd be less inclined to give a shit about places like West Baltimore or corrupt, fuck-ed systems that are the root of so many problems everywhere. The whole point was, don't willingly suspend your disbelief while watching this show, just believe it and keep on believing it after the show is over. Know that it is realistic, and care about reality.

The only thing interesting about Ross and Jonah's discussion is that people like Ross and Jonah exist——people who look for their gods and their affirmations in everything from an overrated movie about a teen who gets pregnant ("Juno") to a fantastic HBO series whose sophistication did not and could not allow for Goldberg-like simplifications and us/them constructs about liberals and conservatives. Remember that the same type of "conservative" pundits loved that penguin documentary because they thought it affirmed their values. Funny how their interest in nature is piqued only when an animal appears to be doing something that conforms to the "family values" of white evangelicals. I assume the infanticide and cannibalism of so many species is not talked about as much among social conservatives...

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Tony Comstock — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:01:33 -0000

"The spirit of Burke is more alive today in pragmatic liberalism IMHO than it is in any discernible conservative political philosophy"

Word.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

brucds — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:49:56 -0000

"humanity is fallible rather than perfectable and good intentions can lead to tragedy, which is a core concept of Burkean conservative thought"

"Conservatives" who have any power effectively quit thinking like that a long time ago, replacing it with "free market" ideology and American Exceptionalism wedded opportunistically to a form of rightwing statism. Even most libertarians like Cato accept the paradigm of historically liberal "issues" and either claim they'be been resolved to the degree necessary (racism, inequality) or have some "free-market" government-sponsored replacement therapy (vouchers/tax credits instead of public schools or universal health insurance.)

The spirit of Burke is more alive today in pragmatic liberalism IMHO than it is in any discernible conservative political philosophy - at least any being served up by the "conservative" political class. There are "conservatives" like Andrew Bacevich who hold to the above Burkean tenets, but ironically you're more likely to find Bacevich writing for The Nation than any mainstream magazine of the Right. (American Conservative, where he also appears, is pretty far removed from the spectrum of thought acceptable to "mainstream" conservatives of the GOP.) Also and ironically, Bacevich invokes liberal social ethicist/theologian Reinhold Niebuhr to make those cogent "Burkean" points.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

alli — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:46:11 -0000

"Yet, I don't think a valid read of The Wire is 'Vote Democrat,' at least."

I agree. Voting for Clay Davis certainly didn't solve the problems of the West Side. And Carcetti's 'new day' was a total sham.

I don't know if the show offered solutions as much as it asked the right questions - often, the harder task of the two. Exposing the interconnectedness and inherent flaws in a way that doesn't point to a specific solution, but instead opens the mind to think something through to its inevitably disappointing conclusion, as girondistnyc pointed out above, was something I'd never seen a television show do successfully. The Wire did it with elegance.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Ethan — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:41:42 -0000

adsfasd,

I'm not going to argue that Season 5 was the best, but you really missed out by giving up after episode 2. I too, thought the serial killer plot seemed hokey and dumb in the beginning, but the way it tied together the chaos enveloping the entire season was really well done. The last three episodes were as good as anything ever done on the show.

Re: The politics of The Wire (again)

Patrick — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:36:19 -0000

I loved the show, but I think the nihilism that TNC mentions goes to its principal flaw: it was too negative. I don't mean that it was a flaw simply because it was unpleasant, but rather it seemed inaccurate. There were so few happy moments, and the happy moments were set up simply to make the bad stuff that followed all the more tragic (Jimmy's relationship with Beady, Omar's time in the ocean paradise). I know Simon wanted a Greek tragedy sort of show, but I always saw it as being more about realism, and that absolute lack of happiness made the depiction seem incomplete.