The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

rjjp — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 10:03:41 -0000

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo... At this site you will find a lot of historical evidence of blacks fighting as confederate soldier. Yes, the war was over slavery, but in all human endeavors personal motivations do not always match the grand scheme motive. It is a very messy reality we live in.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

rjjp — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 07:11:59 -0000

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo... Go to this website for your rebuttal.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Anna Bouillon — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 00:01:10 -0000

you forget about Glory unless I misunderstood you and you were only talking about the confederacy. Glory is a film based on the 54th massachussetts which fought and lost most of their men in an attack on Fort Wagner. Their courage spurred many blacks to volunteer and by the end of the war 180,ooo brave black men were inlisted. This is according to wikipedia's account of the movie Glory starring Matthew Broderick, Morgan Freeman Carey Elwes,Denzel Washington, and Andre Braugher.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Anna Bouillon — Mon, 24 Jan 2011 23:58:09 -0000

you forget about Glory unless I misunderstood you and you were only talking about the confederacy. Glory is a film based on the 54th massachussetts, it was the first regim to be made up entirely of black men. They fought and lost most of their men in an attack on Fort Wagner but they spurred the creation of many black volunteers and by the end of the war 18o,000 brave black men had fought in the war. That is all according to wikipedia's sight on the movie Glory staring Matthew Broderick, Morgan Freeman, Carey Elwes and Andre Braugher.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

camcdougall — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:14:59 -0000

Lee denied these accusations

““this slander … There is not a word of truth in it. … No servant, soldier, or citizen that was ever employed by me can with truth charge me with bad treatment.””

many sources say lee freed slaves he inherrited, before the war. Also its said he and his family payed expenses for former slaves that wanted to go to Liberia.

After the war, Lee did promote education for African Americans

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

12345679878901 — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:37:09 -0000

The secession was absolutely bout slavery. however the war was not. the war was started because the southern states needed nothing to survive from the northern. however the majority of the food and clothing materials were produced in the southern states as was the majority of the products used to run the plants in which the northern states produced their products. its very similiar to the war on terrorism. its about terrorists right? And has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that part of the world is one of the largest oil producers.

Oh and lastly.. Incase no one knows this but most southerners are extremely hardheaded and stubborn. People telling us what we can and cant do in our own homes usually doesnt go over too well. Especially after its been a way of life for so long..

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

confedd — Sat, 04 Dec 2010 19:47:16 -0000

Did you ever here of William Ellison, Jr. also know as "April".. Was a slave that bought his freedom and later he owned slaves. His grandson John Wilson Buckner, served proudly in the Confederate army was wounded Fort Wagner on July 12, 1863, in the battle against the 54th Massachusetts Regiment..They lived in the 1800 s in South Carolina.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

history1234 — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:26:20 -0000

Many jews were a key part of the cotton trade with Europe. Indeed, they were the brokers who purchased the local crops and bundled them together for trade in Europe. Of course, these people had a vested interest in seeing the Confederate way of life continue. The Union Army was , of course, unhappy with the role of jews as brokers. They were striving to make the south penniless and broke.
The jews had a healthy self-interest. Please do not paint them or self-sacrificing in this regard.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

J. D. Crutchfield — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:12:02 -0000

Sorry I found this discussion so late. If anybody is still paying attention, I find it quite interesting that none of our self-righteous Northern brethren had any more to say after Joe in N. Calif. posted actual evidence conclusively to refute Mr. Coates's contemptuous dismissal of the possibility that black Southerners could have fought to defend their country from the invaders.

I respect Mr. Coates, and find myself in agreement with him more often than not; but this discussion is a salutary reminder that even smart people can be led astray, and that what "everybody knows" is not always true.

The sad fact is that our beliefs about the War of 1861, and about the Old South and chattel slavery, are overwhelmingly controlled by the National Myth, which combines Abolitionist and Segregationist propaganda (which agree on an alarming number of points) with capitalist nationalism and state-worship, and ends up containing very little historical fact. Now that both the slaveholding society and the Segregation regime are mercifully dead (though actual slavery and plenty of racism still plague us), it's high time we re-examined the facts and came up with some new ways of thinking about slavery, the South, and the War of 1861.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

woolybugger — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:59:36 -0000

Black confederates were not a myth. After the war, Nathan Bedford Forrest was asked who his best soldiers were. His response was that there were no soldiers better than the black soldiers that fought under him. There were many scattered throughout the south. Frankly, when you think of the KKK, you see them waving the Confederate flag against, not only blacks, but Jews, American Indians, well, anyone who is not white. A little research will show you just how ignorant the people in the KKK are. There were not only black soldiers, but Jewish, Indian, Mexican, very many backgrounds. The problem is the most ignorant and scummy southerners, such as the kkk, are the ones that tarnish the image.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

southron_98 — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:46:39 -0000

Frederick Douglas 1862-"It is now pretty well established, that there are at the present moment MANY COLORED MEN in the CONFEDERTATE ARMY doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as REAL SOLDIERS, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government...". Truth kills you, I guess? “Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youths will be taught by Northern school teachers; learn from Northern school books THEIR version of the war”. General Patrick Cleburne

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Joe in N. Calif — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:19:14 -0000

For instance, there's a car parked in the driveway next to the entrance of the synagogue my wife and I go to on occasion with a confederate flag on it.

Let's see - Judah Benjamin, a Jew, was SecWar, AG, and SecState of the CSA. And it would seem that a disproportionate number of Jews enlisted in the Confederate army.

Read this:

Joseph Goldsmith was known as the "Jewish Confederate 'Chaplain'". Before the Fall Festivals of their Jewish observances in 1864, he went to Richmond and met with an old friend, Mr. M. J. Michelbacher.

Joseph Goldsmith writes in a letter, 1864: "There are right around here and in our other armies many Jewish soldiers who would like to keep Rosh Hashanah, but especially Yom Kippur according to our law and ritual. I am trying to get a furlough for these soldiers over these Holy Days, but do not know how to go about it. Here is a petition to the Secretary of War; you know him well; will you present it, or will you go with me to introduce me, or will you get Mr. Benjamin to recommend it?" "I informed Mr. Michelbacher that as far as Mr. Benjamin was concerned it did not come within the scope of his special office; that if his recommendation was needed I could pledge it, and that the whole matter was for Mr. Seddon to decide."

The next morning Mr. Michelbacher and Mr. Goldsmith met with Mr. Seddon. His reply to the petition of Mr. Goldsmith: "Well, gentlemen, as far as I am concerned I will give my consent, but must refer the matter to the Adjutant and Inspector-General. Whatever he does, I will sanction. He thereupon wrote his endorsement on the petition, and Mr. Michelbacher and I took it up to General Cooper, who, like Mr. Seddon, received us kindly, and with great interest discussed the proposition with us. He would gladly, he said, grant the furloughs, but, 'gentlemen,' he added, 'look, we have here a roster of all our soldiers, and we know, as far as possible from their names, how many of them belong to your religious denomination, and astonishing as it is that we count about 10,000 to 12,000 Jews who are serving in our Army. Now, should I grant the furloughs you request, you will readily see, that for the time being it would perhaps disintegrate entire commands in the field and might work to a bad effect; besides, the commanders of the different army corps should certainly be consulted. On the whole it would be impractible, as you, Goldsmith will readily acknowledge. In fact, he pleasantly added, "you will admit that if your forefathers had fought Titus on the Sabbath Day during the siege of Jerusalem, they most certainly would have beaten him. You see, therefore, I cannot conscientiously grant your request."

And contrast that with Grants Gen. Order No. 11:

"The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the department ('Department of the Tennessee,' an administrative district of the Union Army of occupation composed of Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi) within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.

Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and any on returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permit from headquarters. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits."

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Joe in N. Calif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:52:18 -0000

Well, let's see what we can find:

Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

OK, nothing there, obvioulsy.

Someone above mentioned Mr. Douglas commenting on the subject:

Frederick Douglass, Douglass' Monthly, IV (Sept. 1861), pp 516 "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

A few other indidcations that blacks in grey nothing but a revisionist myth:

During the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1913, arrangements were made for a joint reunion of Union and Confederate veterans. The commission in charge of the event made sure they had enough accommodations for the black Union veterans, but were completely surprised when unexpected black Confederates arrived. The white Confederates immediately welcomed their old comrades, gave them one of their tents, and "saw to their every need". Nearly every Confederate reunion including those blacks that served with them, wearing the gray.

The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument at Arlington National cemetery. The monument was designed 1914 by Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate. Who wanted to correctly portray the "racial makeup" in the Confederate Army. A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers. Also shown is one "white soldier giving his child to a black woman for protection".

- source: Edward Smith, African American professor at the American University, Washington DC.

Petersburg Index-Appeal
May 24, 1886

"The funeral of the late Richard Poplar, the colored Confederate soldier, a sketch of whose life was given in the last issue of the INDEX-APPEAL, took place from the Union Street Methodist Church, on Sunday afternoon and was very largely attended, there being a great number of white people in attendance including many ladies. The coffin was covered with beautiful flowers. The funeral service was conducted by the pastor of the church, whose remarks were both touching and appropriate."

“The Daily Journal, Evansville, Indiana, November I, 1862: "... Now the news comes to us that seven regiments [7000, ed.] of negroes have been drilled by the rebel authorities to man their fortifications in North and South Carolina...seven regiments of negroes, armed and equipped, had arrived at Wilmington, N.C., to occupy the various rebel fortresses during the sickly season. Is anyone so ignorant as to suppose that the operations of these negroes are to be confirmed to the sickly season? Not a bit of it. They will be used in all seasons..."

From James G. Bates' letter to his father reprinted in the 1 May 1863 "Winchester [Indiana] Journal" (the 13th IVI "Hoosier Regiment"] was involved in operations around the Suffolk, Virginia area in April-May 1863 ) - "I can assure you [Father], of a certainty, that the rebels have negro soldiers in their army. One of their best sharp shooters, and the boldest of them all here is a negro. He dug himself a rifle pit last night [16 April 1863] just across the river and has been annoying our pickets opposite him very much to-day. You can see him plain enough with the naked ye, occasionally, to make sure that he is a "wooly-head," and with a spy-glass there is no mistaking him.

"Indianapolis Daily Evening Gazette" 12 March 1863 refers to the 5 March 1863 fight around Thompson's Station, near Franklin, TN The 85th Indiana Volunteer Infantry reported: "NEGRO REGIMENTS IN THE REBEL ARMY - During the fight the battery in charge of the 85th Indiana [Volunteer Infantry] was attacked by “two

Rebel negro regiments.” Our artillerists double-shotted their guns and cut the black regiments to pieces, and brought their battery safely off. ... It has been stated, repeatedly, for two weeks past, that a large number, perhaps one-fourth, of Van Dom's force were “ negro soldiers” and the statement is fully confirmed by this unfortunate engagement."

After the action at Missionary Ridge, Commissary Sergeant William F. Ruby forwarded a casualty list written in camp at Ringgold, Georgia about 29 November 1863, to William S. Lingle for publication. Ruby's letter was partially reprinted in the Lafayette (Missouri) Daily Courier for 8 December 1863: "Ruby says among the rebel dead In the [Missionary] Ridge he saw a number of negroes in the Confederate uniform."

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol XVI Part I, pg. 805, Lt. Col. Parkhurst's Report (Ninth Michigan Infantry) on General Forrest's attack at Murfeesboro, Tenn, July 13,1862: "There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day."

So, yeah, I guess you can say with a certainty that Blacks did not fight for the Confederacy.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

USPatriot — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:33:06 -0000

If one makes an assumption that the war of 1861-1865 was fought for slavery, then we must assume the Revoluntary War was also fought for slavery, because the British didn't have the institution of slavery and the American colonies did. So therefore, the American colonies must have been fighting to protect the institution of slavery.

If you celebrate or support the 4th of July, then you sir are also supporting the institution of slavery. Do you understand my logic?

When you see someone burning you're house or you're barn down, it makes you want to fight. That's where the phrase started, "Because you're down here" came from.

Many Southern people today feel that their defenders were the least unappreciated people in our Nation's history. Many Southern men rallied to the colors because they, like their neighbors and friends, were bothered by Lincoln’s invasion. They showed up when they heard the summons of the fife and drum, and they eventually found themselves locked in that terrible four-year ordeal. They persisted to the finish, or to their deaths, out of a sense of duty & devotion they cherished more than life itself.

I cannot judge the Southern men by defending their homes and firesides, as their grandpa's had also done in 1776. Were the Patriots of 1776 during the British invasion not labeled as guerrilla's as well?

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

rick-oshay — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:12:36 -0000

Private R.M. Doswell was hastening back to his unit after carrying an order when something attracted his attention. The young Virginian had just spotted one of the new Confederate companies of black soldiers, "a novel sight to me." the black Confederates were guarding a wagon train near Amelia Court House on the retreat from Richmond.

Doswell reined in about 100 yards to the rear of the wagon train and watched in fascination as a Union cavalry regiment formed up to charge. The black Confederates fired their weapons like veterans and drove back the overconfident Federals. The horse soldiers re-formed for another charge. This time they broke up the wagon train and scattered the defenders. The black soldiers were captured and disarmed. Doswell suddenly realized his own danger and rode away without being noticed. The date was April 4, 1865. (Article by Charles Rice, America's Civil War, November 1995)

The following is a list of 4 soldiers captured at Ft. Fisher when it fell to Union troops

in January 1865:

Charles Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment, Negro. Captured at Ft. Fisher

and confined at Point Lookout, Md., until paroled and exchanged at Coxes Landing, Va.

14-15 Feb 1865. (Taken from North Carolina Troops, Volume I)

Henry Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment, Negro. Captured at Ft. Fisher

and confined at Point Lookout, Md., until paroled at Coxes Landing, Va. 14-15 Feb 1865.

(Taken from North Carolina Troops, Volume I)

J. Doyle, Private, Company E, 40th NC Regiment, Negro, Captured at Ft. Fisher and

confined at Point Lookout, Md., until paroled at Boulware’s Wharf, Va. On 16 Mar 1865.

(Taken from North Carolina Troops, Volume I)

Daniel Herring, Cook, Company F, 36th NC Regiment, Negro. Captured at Ft. Fisher,

and confined at Point Lookout, Md. Until released after taking Oath of Allegiance June

19, 1865. (Taken from North Carolina Troops, Volume I)

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

pjcamp — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 01:03:36 -0000

You ARE wrong. There is, of course, the 54th Massachusetts action at Fort Wagner, depicted in the movie Glory. There was also the Fort Pillow Massacre in 1864. Black soldiers fought on both sides at Petersburg, and the only reason the black regiment did not lead the Union charge at the Crater is because the commanding officer feared racial blowback should the attack fail. A number of records of participation in the war vanished with the advent of Jim Crow around the turn of the 20th century. You can find records where "soldier" is crossed out and "body servant" written in its place.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Darius — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:32:28 -0000

TNC,

Read, assuming you haven't already, Du Bois' essay "The Propaganda of History."

He discusses the history of the Reconstruction and touches on the point you made here.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Charlieford — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:56:23 -0000

"Most of men that died for the Confederacy never directly profited from slavery and saw theirs as a fight for States Rights."

Yeah, right.

First, one must ask, "Uh, sir, what right, specifically, is it that your state is willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of its finest young men for? It wouldn't have anything to do with the right to hold other human beings as property, now would it?"

As for the average Confederate grunt, they were rarely fighting explicitly for slavery or for Constitutional principles. They were more often fighting, as one put it when asked why by a Union officer, "because you're down here." For the theory behind that, see David Kilcullen's book on counter-insurgency, THE ACCIDENTAL GUERRILLA.

Second, that whole "never directly profited" is a bit of a sleight of hand, as indirectly profiting is still, well, profiting. The psychological esteem gained by belonging to "the master race" *, the possibility and hope of entering the slave-owning class (or having a son do so), the system of race-control slavery made possible, and the wealth generated by cotton, all made up a way of life that the non-slave-owners were deeply implicated in and protective of.

* Btw, you may wish to make room on your list for The Ruling Race: A History of American Slaveholders, by James Oakes.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

soral — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:37:19 -0000

"For many of these folks, I believe, the Lost Cause isn't so much about maintaining their ancestors' reputations -- it's about protecting their own."

I'd say this is largely true, but it's worth noting that these folks don't usually have much of a 'reputation' to begin with - we're talking poor, rural, and white. At least in Mass., nobody in the suburbs slaps a confederate flag bumper sticker on their mid-sized sedan. I think perhaps non-Southern displays of the confederate flag are more about having solidarity with people who are like oneself socioeconomically, regardless of the fact that their ancestors, if they fought, probably fought for the union. I get the feeling it's about ascribing some worth to oneself when no one else seems to. I'm not excusing it; I suspect the folks in question have some racial hangups as well.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Ignatius L. Donnelly — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:03:03 -0000

Uhhh...if it can be done by robots, it shouldn't be done by humans. It really _is_ terrible to waste minds.

I've done boring, repetitive, occasionally (but not usually) hard manual labour. I'll admit, when I was 11, I was proud of my callouses, and that I was able to help out my family in a minor way (but much more than any of my classmates)...but still, it's a tragedy that my father was stuck doing that most of his life.

And, of course, whether or not the labour is alienated really matters: I believe that the philosopher-turned-mechanical who is rounding the books circuit lauding manual labour is actually more speaking to the benefits of working for yourself---it can be much better being ordered around by Necessity than by middle management.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Ignatius L. Donnelly — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:55:40 -0000

Though the idea of 'false consciousness' can be abused as a way of denying the validity of individual, idiosyncratic, choice, at some point it's a useful and valid concept: just because some people are complicit in systems that oppress them or their close relatives, but that doesn't mean that it's in the best interest of most of the members of their group.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Lee — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:42:33 -0000

Meh. I have an ancestor, who I happen to share in common with President Obama, who was expelled from Plymouth Colony for arson, public nudity, and shooting someone's dog. I'm proud of him (Way to stick it to those stuck up pilgrim fuckers, gramps!). Maybe it's "kinda dumb," and maybe I'd be prouder to be descended from Gandhi or something, but I'm not, and family is family.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:38:41 -0000

For instance, our ancestors might criticize us that we weren't more active in righting our environmental pillage or our indifference to the ills of the developing world.

Yeah....and they might be right.

One doesn't have to look down on their ancestors to know they were wrong or did wrong. I don't need to hate them to understand that the South was wrong or that waving the Confederate battle flag around is ignorant. Clearly the South was wrong to secede and slavery was an abomination. However, it was a legally and socially accepted abomination at the time (enshrined in America's holiest of hollies, our Constitution --- written by a slave owner no less)

I think this is the key right here. No one's asking you to hate your ancestors. No one's asking you to look down on them. I think that you process it that way, says quite a lot.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Lee — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:29:15 -0000

I'm trying to reply to Carrington- I'm curious about whether there was a wide disparity between the Caribbean islands as to the treatment of slaves. I worked on a paper back while I was in law school that suggested that, at least in the French caribbean, the slaves had it much better than in the mainland US, legally speaking. They could save up and buy their own freedom, marry each other, marry their masters, their masters would be punished for intentionally physically injuring them, etc. As far as I know, marriage between slaves and slaveowners was not uncommon- Alexandre Dumas pere was the grandson of a French Haitian colonist and his wife, a former slave. I'm wondering whether the dutch, english and spanish islands were in fact much worse, or whether the french situation in practice was not as good as it was in law.

Re: The Myth Of Black Confederate Soldiers

Lyle — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:26:04 -0000

I don't want to agree with this statement Andy, "History is about making judgments". Why is history about making judgments? History is history, i.e., its whatever happened before now. It is what it is, good, bad, or ugly. At best we only really judge our own personal immediate history, like celebrating Anne Frank and never wanting anything like the Holocaust to happen ever again. I'm pretty comfortable in thinking slavery won't ever happen again in America, not so much about genocide.

We who are alive today make judgments. We can look back and say, ooh that was wrong, and live our lives differently which we do or don't do. I wasn't even born in a segregated South. That is how far the South has come today. It is hard to even fathom how bad it was at times. It happened though and we all need to recognize that, but recognizing what happened doesn't need to be a personal, self-flagellating experience. We don't need to get all iconoclastic on our ancestors (at least those we never knew cause it was nearly 150 years ago).

Do I still hate Scandinavians today? Those barbaric illiterates raped and pillaged my ancestral English home way back when. Killed most of my family. Raped all the women. Ate some of the children. Took all the gold.

Should I be mad about that today? Should I give those bastards a pass next time I'm in Copenhagen?

Arguably the residue of slavery still blights America today. So the genocidal Viking story is not really that germane, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.