The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Measure Of A Great Politician

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

BreakerBaker — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:41:52 -0000

To be clear, I am not at all sure where I am falling on this. The more the week has gone on, the bolder and louder the defenses of the program have become, the more I am leaning towards a to hell with the consequences perspective.

But I think it is foolish for people to carry on as if this doesn't run the risk of sabotaging the entire platform approved for by the people in November. TNC seems to think that if Holder does it then Obama's major policy proposals are relatively safe, that it won't be paralyzing politically. I believe that's wishful thinking.

I could be wrong. I hope that I am. I know there SHOULD be investigations. I freely admit the symbolic (and possibly practical) costs of not pursuing investigations and inevitable prosecutions. I just think people pushing so hard for this should begin to consider a practical question: What are you willing to lose? I believe it will be worse than most of them are anticipating.

I know the implications and hazards of letting sleeping dogs lie. Do you know the hazards of waking them up? All I am saying is that we should know what we're getting into, or not.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Consumatopia — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:20:42 -0000

It's worth considering that political risks run both ways. There are political costs to not taking your own moral code seriously, even if they're more subtle than the costs of taking a moral stand. I'm certainly going to find it more difficult to give Obama the benefit of a doubt on anything again. If the government is going to be so crudely cynical, I certainly don't want it any bigger.

This is the same short-sighted version of utilitarianism that leads to torture in the first place. I mean, if I threaten to smear this terrorist with pig's blood, maybe he'll tell me where the next roadside bomb is. I guess I value the lives of the soldiers that bomb would target more than I value the terrorist's feelings. But what happens when word gets out that I've been making threats like that? How's that going to effect the number of roadside bombs I see in the future?

What the "worst case scenario" never seems to consider is the utilitarian cost of being a utilitarian.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Consumatopia — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:03:15 -0000

So I think you’re dismissing a fair question. Assuming this would cost us another couple decades of worsening health coverage, and in 2028, 60% of the American people are without health insurance, would it still be worth it

This is veering dangerously close to a "make the trains run on time" argument. TNC obviously spoke for himself, but stop and think a moment about what you're asking here--you're willing to accept a tyranny as long as it subsidizes your health care?

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Liza — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:03:56 -0000

Agreed.

Everything that goes unchecked gets ramped up to the next level. Absolutely everything.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Liza — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:59:15 -0000

Excellent observation and it certainly seems to be true.

Cheney and his fellow members of The Project for the New American Century actually believed they were men of destiny. God ordained them to create the new world order. The rest of it was their doing whatever they thought was necessary for the Empire. And, of course, anyone who is not like them has as much value as a shelter dog. Corrupt and depraved? I certainly think so. Others might just call it extreme arrogance. Maybe a bit delusional as well.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Consumatopia — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:40:53 -0000

He took the oath of office, which makes the Constitution a higher priority than any campaign promise. The Constitution requires us to comply with treaties. Treaties compel us to prosecute torture.

It's not a matter of priorities, it's a matter of fundamental integrity and decency, with everyone who has those lining up on just one side. It's up to Obama whether he wants to pass this test, but he fails, he doesn't deserve to succeed at anything else.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Consumatopia — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:22:41 -0000

He doesn't have to--he just needs to promote transparency, and wait for the groundswell that will push things where they need to go

If this is the case, then the last thing we should do is "chill out about this"--where do you think this groundswell Obama is counting on will come from?

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Daughter — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:38:37 -0000

They're won't be any big protests on torture or healthcare, Obama knows it and we all know it.

Why not? If the right can have their Tea Parties, why don't we have protests about torture and healthcare? If indeed a majority of Americans are on the right (as in "correct") side of these issues, wouldn't we outnumber the Teabaggers?

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

BreakerBaker — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:28:55 -0000

And I agree, that if this is to go forward (and ideally, it would in some way) the way you describe is potentially the path of least peril. But I am far from confident that its risks are remotely benign.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Persia — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:12:12 -0000

Same here. It makes me queasy.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:56:37 -0000

Nope. Not brushing aside. But we can't lump all the varied ways of pushing this issue into the same risk category? Any movement forward on this is a "risk." Do I want Obama, himself, publicly, daily, beating the drum for prosecution? I don't think I do. That's to high of a "risk" to health care, among other things. But I think the AG investigating it, as it looks like he might be inclined to do, is an acceptable risk.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

rikyrah — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:46:52 -0000

He's simply WRONG on torture. He's just wrong, and it goes against any resemblance of a sense of JUSTICE - that's why people are so upset.

Hell yeah, I'm upset at the shredding of The Constitution, and I want those mofos arrested and tried.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

BreakerBaker — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:45:07 -0000

TNC,

Regardless of what you think of my question, you still seem to be brushing aside what you accept to be a fair one. "Do you believe it's worth risking health care over this?" You argue the question is fair, but that the scenario is improbable. From where I stand, it's not so much an answer to the question at hand. It seems, with respect, more like a self-serving diversion.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Joel — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:28:43 -0000

Yes, keep pressing.

It's not the greatest analogy, but it's like asking the investigations into ex-Nazis to stop because Konrad Adenauer is the new chancellor of Germany.

On the other side, there's South Africa, but that was a different situation in a much less stable nation.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Doctor Jay — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:10:49 -0000

I'm happy to press Obama on this issue, but let's not limit it to that. I'm happy to press Senators and Congressmen, too. And anybody else whose ear I can bend.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

kerouax — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:46:48 -0000

Ok, I understand. I'd be territorial, too. Thanks anyway.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

BreakerBaker — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:41:11 -0000

I think it's fair to ask people to consider the worst case scenario, and then ask them to consider something worse still. Mine is an illustration of a 'worse still' scenario. I'm concerned that people think the worst case is putting things off for a couple of years. I think that's profoundly short-sighted.

Again, I am shaky on where I stand on this, I absolutely agree with you in principle, but I wonder what the cost of all of this could be. I think it is a lot more than most proponents are allowing themselves to believe.

Of course, there are distinct costs to the alternative.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:34:08 -0000

Right, of course you do.

But to the the actual point, the question is leading--it assumes any torture investigation, whether led by Holder or Congress or a presidential committee, will necessarily kill Health care. That can't prove that, and thus it can't be assumed.

A fair question is, "Do you believe it's worth risking health care over this?" It's surely true that a torture investigation will take up time on the agenda. But how much time, and whose time is key. If the AG does this, not Obama, then I think the chance of sacrificing health care is remote.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

diana — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:27:35 -0000

i think that while it is easy to get angry with obama for not out right stating, "let's prosecute" (it gets under my skin too), we have to remember the mainstream media in all this. obama has a genuine skill in making the majority of the news come out his way. he knows how to work it! so in some sense, i want him to take the media on like he knows how. while i want prosecutions, i also want the media to back the F- off and let the prosecutors do their job. this won't happen. we yearn for "transparency".

there is a terribly strange space between transparency of information and what the hell the media (mainstream, mostly) will do with that information. you can't predict. i never imagined that the defense of torture that is coming out of certain mouths would ever occur (sure, call me naive). scary. so in that sense, i see why he'd hold his tongue.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Jonah — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:20:04 -0000

I've been on the fence about this issue for a long time now, but here you've finally convinced me. Thank you.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Green — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:19:28 -0000

I do.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Green — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:14:24 -0000

I think your missing my point. He has said, with specificity, a great number of things that he wanted to see happen. One of them was not prosecutions for torture. In fact, while he's been a little ambiguous on the issue he has said more to intimate that he'd like not to see prosecutions than he's said to indicate that he does want to see them. So given what we know about the man based on what he's actually said, there is little evidence that prosecutions are a priority of his. So if in his judgement, this is a low value fight with a high cost, why would he fight it?

He probably knows more now than we'll ever know about what happened in those prisons and if he hasn't been shocked into demanding retriibution at this point he probably won't be.

So the only real in for those of you who want to see prosecutions happen is to change the cost of not prosecuting. That, I think, is a case to be made to the american people, moreso than to him. Maybe by getting the information out there and hoping it strikes some sort of moral outrage in those of us who are not now outraged.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:10:02 -0000

So I think you’re dismissing a fair question. Assuming this would cost us another couple decades of worsening health coverage, and in 2028, 60% of the American people are without health insurance, would it still be worth it?

You really think that's a fair question?

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

Alesis — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:06:51 -0000

What a person chooses to do, whether private citizens or elected leader, is on them.

Citizens have an obligation to push more a just government, but even in the face of apathy Obama swore and oath to uphold it.

When he fails he can't blame us.

Re: The Measure Of A Great Politician

kerouax — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:03:40 -0000

Deleted. I understand what your trying to do. But you can't do it here.