The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Lessons of Fort Hood

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

dad — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:41:00 -0000

See this for a history of antidepressants and violence (including ALL mass shootings).

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

dad — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:30:46 -0000

Lessons Learned from Ft. Hood:

<ul><li>Gun free zones invite mass murder. Military bases and schools are the least safe places in Texas. Mass shooter's aren't idiots.</li>

<li>Psychiatrists, the FDA, and drug companies should bear some liability for the actions of mass shooters taking perscription SSRIs (... waiting for the press to reveal what Hassan was taking ... he had access to everything)</li></ul>

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

jb4 — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:12:00 -0000

"Obviously, gun control is a non-issue, since military bases are actually very well locked down, and also, no one was going to prevent a military officer from getting his hands on guns."

Au contraire. A Clinton-era rule prohibits carrying firearms on base. They're all kept locked up. If everyone was carrying, there would have been a hell of a lot fewer casualties.

Gun-free zones are dumb. Then, only criminals have guns. Everyone else is helpless.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Shane — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:22:45 -0000

I will admit that my way of thinking is a bit tone-deaf when it comes to other people's emotions, but that's the point of my post. Simply put, I don't understand why people have to "draw a lesson" from these infrequent occurrences, when mundane, day-to-day events cause far more harm. It's a tragedy to lose a family member, no matter what the cause.

I'd really like to win these wars we're in - and that will require combat effectiveness from our military. A witch-hunt against Muslims would be incredibly counterproductive when we're already struggling to fill billets for Arabic/Pashto translators with security clearances. Seriously, this isn't about political correctness, because I'm not a very politically correct guy.

So the summary of my position is:

-This was an act of terrorism, whether he was actually linked to an organization or not

-There isn't a lesson to be learned here

-We lose about as many soldiers to off-duty vehicle accidents every month as were killed at Ft Hood. That is, the magnitude of loss that the Army suffers due to personally owned vehicles is the equivalent of a Ft Hood shooting every month.

-The military has finite resources and should pursue low-hanging fruit first when considering soldier safety.

-Islamic extremism isn't even in the top 10 concerns in terms of threats that are cost-effective for the military to address.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Ann — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:47:28 -0000

underceij -

I still think it's worth considering the difference between the two churches/mosques. Rev. Wright is clearly anti-American in many of his messages, yet I don't recall hearing that he tried to convince his congregation that they had a moral duty as Christians to go out and murder a bunch of Americans.

And you seem to be the one accusing all Muslims of having secret terrorist ties. People are saying that Hasan should have been investigated because of his statements and his attempts to contact Al Qaeda. To say that this type of investigation would target all Muslims in the military implies that they all have the same secret sympathies and have all begun to act on them.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:22:08 -0000

I must say, I've never read Blink. I did, however, read this in more than one place (first in the NYT)

"His message is that we should trust first impressions — except when we shouldn't" and the specific reason why we're not supposed to is that Gladwell got pulled over for speeding more often when he grew an afro.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:11:51 -0000

The Muslim/Baptist comparison is a symptom of the intellectual inbreeding you suffer from. As others have pointed out, we're not at war with any Baptist terror groups, nor do Baptists have a lengthy history of killing large numbers of people, Baptist or otherwise, in terrorist attacks. Frankly, you sound like an idiot when you make this comparison.

"Were we going to start kicking Muslims out of the government and the armed forces? That's unconstitutional, would brutally wrong the overwhelming majority of the Muslim community that is not involved in terrorism"

As a point of trivia, is that unconstitutional? I'm pretty sure it's illegal, but not so sure about the constitutionality issue. The problem here isn't that Hasan was Muslim; it was abnormal behavior associated with his faith and his adoption of the cultural customs of parts of the world where Islam predominates, but which aren't necessarily associated with Islam themselves. I know a number of Muslims, mostly immigrants. None of them walks around wearing a jelabiya (sp?), because that isn't normal here. When a Muslim who grew up in the US starts doing that, it should be a warning sign.

What this incident demonstrates is the need for a system, both in government and private sector employers, in which personnel can report on the behavior of a colleague without any risk of being accused of racism or other prejudice. There's no question Hasan's colleagues were reticent about reporting him to superiors, and superiors were reluctant to confront him, because their careers would be damaged when they were accused of prejudice.

"Explain to me what makes Hasan's actions so much worse or so much different than Klebold & Harris at Columbine?"

I don't know that they're worse; what makes them different is that I don't recall a huge number of Klebold and Harris' friends, neighbors, and colleagues coming out of the woodwork and saying they were on the path to do what they did for a long time. They had done some videos and such, but IIRC, that stuff was discovered after the event, not six months before.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

junyo — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:10:02 -0000

If you thought Blink was about jumping to conclusions you read it wrong. It's about making quick, valid decisions based on information that you have that may not rise to the level of hard data, i.e. knowing when you have enough information to act. And Gladwell specifically warns about how personal bias can affect the validity of the choices. If there's a lesson that can be applied here, it the tons of people coming out of the woodwork that knew something was "off" with Hasan, and yet no one was willing to act without more information.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

muzzybelly — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:53:19 -0000

What the heck are you talking about? What does this have to do with "liberal ideology?" And where do you get off ascribing some "ideology" to me? You don't know me, or anything about me other than a few things I have written on this message board.

My views on most social matters are heavily influenced by Gandhi. If it is "liberal ideology" to be moved by the insights of one of the greatest heroes in world history, insights that are largely derived from the teachings of the oldest organized religion in the world . . . then I guess I'm guilty as charged. You might as well call me "jslfjsdfl," though, since your words will have lost all meaning.

As for Hasan the madman, OK, he did some jihadi things too. So what? Here are the critical questions:

1. Was he part of a terrorist organization like the 9/11 perps, whose actions for years were part of a larger scheme to harm the US?

2. Did his Muslim faith *cause* him to do this? That is, was he an otherwise well-adjusted man who decided that his duty as a Muslim required him to attack American soldiers?

As far as I can tell, the answers to both questions are no. Thus, he was a madman who latched onto to some extreme ideology as he was descending into instability. Again, like hundreds of other psychos. Go look up the name William Kreutzer and tell me exactly what makes you sure this Hasan guy was any different.

The other important question is: how do we prevent this sort of thing from happening again? I'm pretty sure the answer to that question has very little to do with whether the word "terrorism" applies or not. And I'm also pretty sure that running around talking as if we are at war with Islam doesn't help, and probably makes life a little bit harder for our guys who are over there in Iraq and Afghanistan trying to win hearts and minds.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:18:22 -0000

Otherwise, I see nothing about this event to indicate it was anything other than a madman.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Yes, if you discard every single salient detail of something you don't want to face up to, then yes: you no longer have to face up to it. He didn't just "happen to be" a Muslim, and he didn't just shout "jihadi things." He also attempted to contact al Qaida, advocated for heinous killings of infidels, attended the same mosque at the same time as the 9/11 terrorists, adhered and advocated the teachings of a terrorism-spouting Islamic cleric, told co-workers he considered the US military an aggressr against Muslims, etc...

Sheesh.

His actions weren't aimed at a target with any political, economic or military strategic value. He just went to his workplace and opened fire, like countless others.

Wrong. On all counts. The scale of his attacks were insufficient to do excessive damage. But he chose a military deployment staging area to conduct his attacks. That most definitely has military strategic value. And it wasn't his workplace, so he didn't just go to his workplace and open fire.

Why are you so stubbornly refusing to face basic facts? Are you so afraid to face up to the bankruptcy of the underpinnings of liberal ideology?

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:11:44 -0000

HMOG.

I'm stunned that you not only have this viewpoint, but believe you are contributing to a discussion by sharing it.

I'm not trying to stop you from writing it, because this sort of thinking needs the disinfectant of sunlight and air.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Spinoza — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:34:51 -0000

Let's step back a bit. When you do your maths, or an analogous thing, it is often useful to look at problems of a similar type. After the Holocaust, one hypothesis was that it was due to 2000 years of Christian antisemitism. This history has been well explored in Constantine's Sword. In response to this consideration, the Church overtly in Vatican II said that the covenant between G-d and the Jewish people was not revoked by Christianity, the liturgy has been changed from Roman (or Latin) to a vernacular thus the priest does not identify, as much, in successive stages of the Mass considered as a play as the Roman ruler and then Christ thus deflecting hostility in the recreated passion play from 'the Gentile rulers who lord it over you,' and also at least one Mass reading, Nov. 1 this year, Revelations 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,

3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel,

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"

14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

shows in the fourth verse Jews being taken to heaven without the ostensible intervention of Christ. All of this does not require accepting the view that 'Pacelli was up to his elbows in Jewish blood' as a commenter on Volokh expressed the other day. Similarly however, the Muslim religion can be seen to have an influence in the murders at Fort Hood and 9/11.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:48:58 -0000

Muzzy: So you're strongly against hate crime laws?

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:45:29 -0000

Lieberman is on Fox News Sunday conjecturing about whether or not this was an act of terror, based on whether Hasan was motivated by "Islamism". In my opinion, any act of mass violence is terrorism. It doesn't matter if he's killing in the name of Allah or apple pie, he's killing masses of people. That is TERRORISM. Virgina Tech, DC snipers, Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph....ALL TERRORISTS!!! Why does he have to be Muslim to be a terrorist?

You might want to open a dictionary and discover what terrorism is and then pay attention to who is called a terrorist. Everyone agrees that McVeigh and the DC snipers were terrorists and most agree that Rudolph was, but no one who knows what "terrorism" is thinks that the VT guy was a terrorist. Nothing to do with Islam except that terrorists have to be motivated by something attempting to achieve some sort of political or social end.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Shane — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:08:05 -0000

I never understood the fascination with spectacular attacks. The Army loses far more soldiers to accidents than it does to war. And it loses far more to war than it does to ordinary murder, which it loses more soldiers to than spectacular attacks in garrison. I'd gladly trade a 10% decrease in vehicle deaths for a 100% increase in Islamic extremist murders within the military.

If we're worried about violent extremism within the military, we should first look to ordinary street gang affiliation (yes, it's a problem) and white supremacist groups. If we're worried about general damage to combat efficacy, we should REALLY start worrying about soldier's mental health, of which the Fort Hood shooting could be seen as an example of its importance.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

underceij — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:07:32 -0000

It seems as though Ann is though one who has nothing meaningful to contribute to the conversation. The country obviously decided a year ago that our president has a mind of his own and doesn't hold the same views as the pastor of the church he was a tangential member of while developing his political career in Chicago. That debate has been settled, grow up and move on.

To address the topic at hand, there is no need to discriminate against Muslims in order to prevent tragic events like what happened at Fort Hood last week. This was clearly a failure on the army's part that will not be repeated again, but it's as if some of you believe all Muslims serving in the military make statements similar to those made by Hasan, and are all secretly trying to make contact with Al Qaeda. Is that your stance? Because if it is, that would make it necessary for us to discriminate. It's note mine, and that's the point. A small minority of all religious groups hold severe and sometimes violent convictions that are untenable for sustaining peace throughout society, and by and large those minorities can easily snuffed out. The failure to do that has nothing to do with castigating the entire religion, but more to do with remaining vigilant about identifying the fringe. This case doesn't change that fact.

By the way, this whole debate about whether this act was one of terror or just horrible violence, seems inherently racist to me. Lieberman is on Fox News Sunday conjecturing about whether or not this was an act of terror, based on whether Hasan was motivated by "Islamism". In my opinion, any act of mass violence is terrorism. It doesn't matter if he's killing in the name of Allah or apple pie, he's killing masses of people. That is TERRORISM. Virgina Tech, DC snipers, Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph....ALL TERRORISTS!!! Why does he have to be Muslim to be a terrorist?

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

muzzybelly — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:02:59 -0000

Not a question of hating Hasan, but in the comments made about Islam.

Yes, we are "at war" with ideological extremists. In this case, so what? His actions weren't aimed at a target with any political, economic or military strategic value. He just went to his workplace and opened fire, like countless others.

He happens to be a Muslim, and for that reason, he shouted some jihadi things. Otherwise, I see nothing about this event to indicate it was anything other than a madman.

NOW, of course we should be trying to protect our people against crazy madmen. Especially on military bases, where they can cause a lot of trouble. And of course, we should be making sure that our military personnel are all loyal, and if there are any traitors, they should be found. But those things are no more true nor urgent now than they were last month.

The rampage of this Hasan guy tells us nothing of predictive value.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:29:31 -0000

Apparently it's only okay to jump to politically correct conclusions.

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book on that (Blink). But he doesn't think that's stupid, he was endorsing the idea.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:10:07 -0000

Almost? It was quite comical.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

MoReport — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:48:24 -0000

@ muzzybelly: Hate/perspective ?

Who here said they hate Hasan ?

I do not; I simply want him, and every

like-minded threat to me and mine, dead.

Let me give you some perspective;

Ordinary Mucker attacks are a random risk

to individuals, like cancer and lightning.

IslamoFascist Terrorists are an existential

threat to the nation; If allowed to continue

their attacks, some combination of luck,

planning, and advancing technology will

result in a death toll in the millions

of US citizens. Even one such terrorist

"Sleeper Agent" could be the key to

such an attack.

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

Careless — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:43:58 -0000

The only significant abortion-related story I can recall from this year had the *anti* abortionist getting killed, remember?

Seriously?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

derek — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:34:36 -0000

Sorry to remind you but the US is currently at war against a group that Hasan seems to have some affection for, or some at least ideological affiliation to.

I know it's inconvenient to your tidy little world view.

Derek

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

derek — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:27:16 -0000

The canadian Gun Registry came about after the montreal massacre. Definitely a political reaction to an event.

Derek

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

derek — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:21:18 -0000

There is a significant difference. The US (and Canada) is at war against a Muslim fundamentalist/political/military group. One of the main targets in Iraq was Al Queda.

From what I've read, the US isn't at war with Southern Baptists.

I suspect that in most bien pensant circles that is an inconvenient truth.

Derek

Re: The Lessons of Fort Hood

muzzybelly — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:54:47 -0000

Once again, so much hate and so little perspective.

Explain to me what makes Hasan's actions so much worse or so much different than Klebold & Harris at Columbine? They are pretty much the same. All lashed out in destructive rage against their primary institutions (Army or school), and all seemed motivated by an ideology of violence that they found in cultural messages. Whether it is Islam or Marilyn Manson, the point is the same: 99.9% of the audience is never moved to violence, and then there are crazy people who react horribly.

What makes you certain that if the guy wasn't exposed to Islam, he wouldn't have found something else? Remember the horrorcore rapper who killed that girl and her family a few weeks ago? Again, what motivated him? Did the hip-hop make him do it?

It seems to me that what happens is that mentally ill people in whom a destructive rage is growing tend to be fascinated by cultural expressions of violence. Those can be found anywhere. White Supremacist literature, right-wing paranoia, Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism.

What religion were the post office killers like Jennifer San Marco and Thomas Sherrill? The former was an unabashed racist who targeted minorities. The latter, who knows? He certainly wasn't a Muslim. What about Charles Whitman? He wasn't Muslim. By all accounts, he was a good Christian.