The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

cxs — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:44:56 -0000

I've yet to see the comparison,but this situation really reminds me of when the black guy finally won The Apprentice. Not only did he have to be a total superstar, but then when it got to the end,he was asked to share his win with the white woman who was runner up.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

One Drop — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:07:52 -0000

Well, I said it over on Too Sense already, but I'll repeat myself a bit here. The shorter version of Bill Clinton's demands to Obama is this:

"All you have to do is blow me on national television Wednesday, and I'll be happy to support you."

I'm so tired of the Clintons and all of their egotistical melodrama.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

latts — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:44:25 -0000

Could it be that the nominations of Senators Obama and McCain will actually be the catalyst for substantive party splits/changes just as the '48 DNC was the beginning of the GOP's four decade grip on the South?

Dunno, and I'm not at all certain it'd be a good thing if that did happen, but it's seemed to me for some time that party realignments are long past due. Nearly a century without a truly significant shakeup (aside from the race-issues exchanges) is way too long, and I wonder if television is to blame for basically fossilizing each party's political philosophy.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Sheila — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:21:37 -0000

One learns with the Clintons that no matter what you do for them, how you do it, where you do it, when and with whom - it's never enough. $20 says that if Barack did everthing - everything Wolfson said is necessary to make nice to Bill, there would still be something lacking, some other gesture Barack would be 'required' to make to appease Mr. Bill...

You can never win with the Clintons. They just suck you dry.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

DougEFresh — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:06:23 -0000

When you quote Hitchens and Sullivan, in your dudish lingo commenting on Bill Clinton it tells me you are incredibly stupid. You choose two Clinton haters as a frame of reference. It says more about you than it says about Bill. The attempt at jive talk does not illuminate what you have to say.

I probably shouldn't feed into this but I have always thought dude talk and jive talk were two seperate styles. But then again, I never knew it was a fact that use of the term "dude" signified anything about intelligence.(that may be self-serving on my behalf, or ignorance on your behalf)

I wonder what it says about Clinton supporters when they state that "jive talk" is a sign of inferiority? Maybe this is how Clinton and his supporters got tagged with the charges of racism.

And not to be picky, but TNC never "quoted" Hitchens and Sullivan, he referenced their work. He quoted Wolfson. Then again, as someone who uses "dude" a lot, perhaps I am not smart enought to know the meaning of the word "quote". Afterall, I needed Bill Clinton to explain to me what the mean of "is" is.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Josh R. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:39:43 -0000

His anger is clearly more important to him than the fate of his country

Ding, ding, ding, ding!

This is, after all, the guy who stood on the sidelines while President Bush wiped his butt with the nation (I guess he learned about sitting on the sidlines while the Hutu were butchering the Tutsis) but who sprang into furious action when someone dared challenge his wife for the job of Presidential candidate. He revealed his priorities there. [To prevent confusion, it is not the defense of his wife that I am criticizing, but his tepid response the previous eight years to the Bush administration. There is a large difference between Al Gore and Bill Clinton.)

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

shani-o — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:13:54 -0000

Chris: "The attempt at jive talk does not illuminate what you have to say."

That, right there, shall be the thesis statement for my life.

The funniest thing I've read all morning.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Aubrey Maturin — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0000

Why the hate Ta-Nehisi? Our guy Barack won the nomination. How pumped am I?!?! But now you want Bill to tell you that you're the greatest? I used to do that to my little brother after I beat him at a video game while I had him in a headlock: "say that I'm the best tecmo bowl player ever and that you're a piece of sh*t! admit it!" Of course I was 12 years old at the time.

Bill's wife lost in a very close, spirited race filled with regrets and bone-headed moves that must keep him tossing and turning every night. You want Bill, who has known mostly success during his life, to just suddenly hand over the keys to Barack and pat him on the back? Are you kidding? Bill WAS the Democratic Party. He brought them back from Carter and Dukakis. Give the guy a break.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

zacksback — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:44:04 -0000

I hope Hillary remains in non-executive jobs (e.g. Senator) where there is no First-Spousish role for Bill to overfill and overflow.

Exactly. If Hillary succeeds Ted Kennedy as the next "lion of the Senate" and becomes the linchpin to the same kind of far-reaching significant legislation as he was, Bill will have as much influence on the day-to-day governing of the country as Vickie Kennedy or any other senatorial spouse. Which is to say: Nada.

And Bill knows it. And he is in no way happy about it.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Chris — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:25:53 -0000

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Rich — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:30:55 -0000

Whatever, right back at you! I would say, however, that what drove Hitch insane about Bill was Bosnia, and admirably so. Sullivan, I'm not so sure, but keep in mind that he was and is a conservative, and therefore there was no initial silo full of affection. It's like wondering how and why I became disaffected from McCain.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:06:52 -0000

A bit of commentary from Malcolm Rivers on Obama and saddleback:

American Idiot

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

alan — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:06:48 -0000

Your shallow commentary is something to behold. Obama now leads the party and he has to provide direction. Blaming Bill is about as stupid as some of your other commentry. Get real. This about Obama winning an election; not about Bill. Don't look for enemies to blame. From Thursday on Obama will have to carry this Party and he does not need scribblers to make excuses for him.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Jon — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:20:31 -0000

I don't have much sympathy for Clinton's recent peevishness. I think his wife has far outclassed him, which (until recently, she's getting better) says a lot.

That said, he was the last Democratic POTUS, was re-elected by a large margin, and reigned over a time of peace, prosperity, and international respect that makes today's failings all the move galling. Whatever his faults, he is due a certain amount of respect for that.

And that said, his many and manifest failings, and the damage they inflicted on his party, should leave him a little more humble about his role in the current convention. His legacy, after all, was of little benefit to Democratic Congressmen, Al Gore, or John Kerry. Or Hillary. His is a mixed record, and its benefits apparently aren't portable.

It seems that, finally, the only way for a Democrat to get elected is to overcome the Clinton legacy, which is what Barack is attempting. Bill needs to reconcile himself to the idea that no one else is going to justify him and his legacy. He had his shot, and it is what it is, whatever "is" means. Time to move on.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

JT (Chicago) — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:54:41 -0000

As I read this blog and watch the first night of the convention, I wonder if we are finally on the cusp of a reorganization of our political party system.

Could it be that the nominations of Senators Obama and McCain will actually be the catalyst for substantive party splits/changes just as the '48 DNC was the beginning of the GOP's four decade grip on the South?

Could it be that 2012 will see three or four major party candidates for the presidency, each with a real base?

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Richard — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:52:44 -0000

Bill Clinton is a narcissist who has no capacity to subjugate his personal needs. I was an ardent Clinton supporter for all of his presidency, but the reality of his personal and emotional weaknesses is too obvious to ignore.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Jonna Mackin — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:42:47 -0000

I couldn't agree with you more.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Ed Marshall — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:16:24 -0000

Well, upon further reflection the country is not fucked.

Hard-core Clintonite's will not make up the ground needed to take both hard-core conservatives who are very ready to vote Obama just to stick a cross in McCain and indepenents who are breaking to Obama because they get the weathervane. McCain should be crushing the independent vote and he isn't which tells you something about the sort of commisar of the DLC revolution who would break the other way. It's a handful of total brainwashed party hacks who are making a last gasp at political importance.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Ed Marshall — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:49:13 -0000

This is a wierd dynamic we got going here in this thread. It's the people who felt sold out in the 90's vs. the people who think Clinton-era DLCism was the apex of American civilization.

What we are playing out is a species of the Nader-Gore wars pre-and-post 2000 election. The really sad part is Obama has given me, anyway, damn little reason to believe he is outside of the DLC mold lately. His heresy is that at some point in his campaign, he thought we could better than Clintonism and that's terrible and we'll vote for McCain over that sort of shit.

This country is fucked and maybe even democracy is a piss-poor idea here.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Pesto — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:03:59 -0000

Howard, I did read your comment about Cook, don't worry about it. In fact, I had originally planned to link to his stats, but found the Dr. Z article before I posted and it seemed much better than just the numbers.

As to Clinton's performance/legacy...yes, I absolutely agree that Clinton was dealing with a few decades of very effective rightwing organizing. And there wasn't anything on the other side. Except wait, there was. Jesse Jackson's 1984 and 1988 campaigns looked for a while like the start of some kind of reaction, populist and left wing, to what was still at that time called the New Right.

Now, the Rainbow Coalition fizzled for a lot of reasons, but one of the main ones was the emergence of the DLC, which was created specifically to keep the Democratic Party from falling into the hands of a bunch of leftists, black radicals, peaceniks, environmentalists, and rank-and-file workers. And who was the DLC poster boy in the early 1990s? Bill Clinton.

Clinton signed up for the task of kneecapping the Democratic left -- he actively campaigned on "The 3rd Way" and on "reinventing government" both of which were euphemisms for "pro-corporate Democrats". He pushed NAFTA through a generally suspicious Congress -- his first priority as President. That's not on the GOP or Pat Robertson -- that stuff is on him. He's not a poor, sad progressive who just wishes he could be Tom Hayden but had to deal with Newt instead. He's a center-right, pro-corporate Dem.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Jim — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:58:55 -0000

Bottom line is that Clinton supporters need to get onboard or risk being irrelevant starting in November. If you want her to have any future in the party hop on board now.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

DougEFresh — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:55:54 -0000

A lot of people in the Democratic party probably led Bill Clinton to believe that they would forever follow him blindly. His people were willing to put up with almost everything when the fight was Clinton Vs. Gingrich or Clinton Vs. Dole. Plus, after 12 years of Republican rule, Clinton was seen as the Golden Boy, the Comeback Kid who was literally touched by Kennedy as a teen and was elected to finish the job JFK started.

He was once the darling of the beautiful people in Hollywood, but then the former bootlickers like Moveon.org and David Geffen grew tired of the Clinton lies and sellouts. Then the tactics that they once applauded when employed against republicans were used against other democrats, and that was a step too far.

So I can see how Clinton could be stunned and would feel slighted by his fall from grace in the eyes of many Democrats. They led him to believe that he could get away with just about anything. But none of that ultimately absolves Clinton of his pathological egotism. He has often been accused of obsessing about his place in history; his latest bit of acting this out has been quite embarrassing.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Marc Adin — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:23:51 -0000

"As I've said, I don't doubt that Obama's people pushed this idea that Bill Clinton was race-baiting in the primaries. Frankly, I don't care if he was or wasn't."

>>I do. I never saw evidence that Obama's campaign pushed the notion of 'race baiting.' As far as I could discern, both Clintons used many forms of disinformation and misinformation to go after Obama based upon race, ethnicity, religion, and patriotism. They panicked after Iowa, and were bouncing off the walls, until HRC appeared to be a different person every day. Her 'shame on you BHO', 'McCain passed the test to be CinC, I have, and you'll have to ask BHO', not a Moslem 'as far as I know', and the 'hard working white people' comments showed her to be a lousy person, lousy presidential Democratic Party nominee, and without a moral compass. Billy-Bong's moral compass was never an issue in my mind, because he demonstrated time and time again that he had none.

As you noted, he broke off his first presidential campaign to sign off on the death penalty by torture of a guy who had effectively lobotomized himself by shooting himself in the head after he murdered one man, and then shot and killed a policeman. I guess Clinton had to prove his cajones by knowingly killing a black man who didn't know he was about to be executed. Rector said 'he'd be back' to finish his pecan pie when he came back from down the hall.

Bill went on to oversee the loss of congress to the nimrod Republicans and Newton Ginko, get a blowjob in the Oval Office while talking on the phone about Kosovo, and then lied to everyone, everyone, about it. His NAFTA and 'welfare reform' were Republican ideas hatched during the Bush I years, and they were cruel to the struggling working class and the poor. Clinton is a fool, a creep and a narcissist. He opened the door wide for Bush ll.

So I do care what he was doing, because it gives me insight to what he may do now and in the future. Now the Clintons seem to want to extort something from Obama. If Obama agrees, the Republicans will paint him as weak, just as they will use hours of lying attacks on BHO by HRC during the primary. HRC will be the 'star' of a multitude of lowlife Republican ads. Obama: weak, wimpy, arrogant, elitist, out of touch with the American people, unsubstantial, and a black, fist bumping wise ass who gives a great speech from a teleprompter. That's what is ahead. Obama will meet the attacks and turn it against his and our mortal enemies. I am sure of that.

Every American who has grown up here has some degree of racism. The key is to understand ourselves, our biases, and not act upon them, but do the right thing, and struggle against the panoply of forces that attempt to turn our moral compasses into a malformed and mutated guide to the future.

McCain is worse than Bush. Bush is a mindless puppet. McCain is a bellicose, irrational, and stupid man. That's his life story from day one. There is more at stake than 'four more years of Bush.'

Adin

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Brien — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:20:54 -0000

I just think it's worth pointing out that there have been reports of Bill Clinton not getting along with all 3 of the people the Democrats have nominated since 2000. Just saying.

Re: The incredible arrogance of Bill Clinton

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:03:12 -0000

Obama has already given tribute to the Clinton administration's success in a number of speeches. People like Wolfson waste my (our) time when they suggest this is what is yet to be done.