The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

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Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Juba — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:01:06 -0000

This quote is,(and thank you so much for publishing it - the entire address is "classic" Robert) certainly from the days of Dr. Benjamin Mays, Dr. Hugh Gloster, and Drs. Keith and Massey (which takes you from about 1940 to the present),the first time on a public scale that the college PRESIDENT addressed ANYTHING at all re: homosexuality

Bruh, this is not true. I remember Massey addressing homosexuality and tolerance on at least a couple of occasions. I also remember the administration overruling the SGA while I was there in the 90s and allowing Adodi, a gay Black fraternity, to exist on campus.

Morehouse has been grappling with Black homosexuality since the notorious 40% essay was published (morehouse grads should get the reference), so this idea that Morehouse finally found the courage to tackle the topic in the last couple years is not at all the way I remember it, and I graduated a decade ago.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Juba — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:56:27 -0000

Yep, they've been having this conversation at Morehouse for at least the last 20 years. So much for the Black community being afraid to confront their homophobia.

Im still really annoyed at prominent gay critics like Sullivan and Savage just talking out the side of their necks.

Whatever.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 May 2009 07:40:31 -0000

Understood. I think he deserves props. I guess I just didn't see him as any better than Clinton or Edwards on gay rights, so I'm not sure why people are especially disappointed in him.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 May 2009 07:38:19 -0000

Hope your man started actin right. Dudes can be tricky.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

pollack — Fri, 15 May 2009 01:42:28 -0000

I agree with your reply, Ta-Nehisi. Maybe I wasn't being very clear, but I said, "totally irrespective of the fact that [...]" and, "at a popular rally in Mississippi" in order to say that I was NOT especially appreciative that someone black was saying it, but that I WAS especially appreciative that someone was saying it at a popular rally in Mississippi. And the person who did just happened to be Barack Obama, for which I totally give him credit.

I didn't think it was especially unusual for someone black to say such a thing. I thought it was unusual for a politician to say such a thing in front of thousands of people at a rally in Mississippi, where, as you may or may not know, gays might enjoy somewhat less popular acceptance than they do in D.C. or Harlem.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Jennifer D. — Thu, 14 May 2009 14:10:10 -0000

You know I re-read all my posts from yesterday and I can clearly see that they were influenced by a fight with my boyfriend. Time for an attitude refresh and a reconciliation!

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

SR — Thu, 14 May 2009 13:32:45 -0000

deva, I just created my account here at THC's blog so I could reply to your comment. Really spot on. Like marta, I would be a devoted reader if you decide to put up a blog somewhere.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Acromion — Thu, 14 May 2009 11:34:03 -0000

Blacks, being human and all, are just as capable of "monolithising" other minority groups.

Case in point - Many times I have heard blacks say something like this: "Gay rights are not civil rights." Or, as D.L. Hughley so eloquently stated: "Picking cotton and taking dick are not the same struggles." Who is making that comparison? How many gays actually see their struggle as exactly the same as the struggle of blacks? I don't, and I don't know any other gay people that do.

Just because gays are asking for their civil rights automatically means we are trying to copy off blacks? That's very narcissistic. There have been countless civil rights movements throughout the world that have nothing to do with Black People. Native Americans, women, Jews, Armenians, Palestinians, Christians in Rome . . . . all had civil rights movements and they weren't about black people.

And really, DL, When was the last time you were forced to pick cotton?

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Ilya Lozovsky — Thu, 14 May 2009 11:23:36 -0000

I don't really get it.

You say:

Because Black folks are the only people in this country not allowed to be taken - INDIVIDUALLY - and - IN CONTEXT.

and then you end your post with:

This is why I'm not in the game of educating White folks. I'm not some Black Ambassador. It's as if they revel in their ignorance, then you're just supposed to ' understand' that they're ignorant. Um, no.

What about the individuality of white folks, and taking them in context?

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Galleymac — Thu, 14 May 2009 11:15:36 -0000

1) I don't think TNC was complaining about "prefacing." He was mocking himself for doing it too.

2) You seem to be looking for an easier, more pleasant solution than actually exists. Am I reading you wrong?

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

nolo93 — Thu, 14 May 2009 10:30:47 -0000

Beautifully put. thank you.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

shurufu — Thu, 14 May 2009 02:20:40 -0000

I find it really funny that TNC attacks white writers for dehumanizing blacks and then proceeds to write an entire post that dehumanizes 'white writers'. Come on, brother. Straw men, anyone?

shurufu anasema

http://africanbambataa.blogspot.com

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Bluestatewatchdog — Thu, 14 May 2009 01:03:56 -0000

I couldn't imagine this being put better than you have deva, kudos for this. This is what makes reading comments on the internet worth all of the sifting through filler, ad hominem, and personal attacks.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

rikyrah — Thu, 14 May 2009 00:37:35 -0000

I think I've read this 4 times. Gets better with each read.

Thank you.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

kerouax — Wed, 13 May 2009 22:16:23 -0000

To be fair, TNC has misquoted Andrew's original post. Somehow, "black church congregations" has become "the Black Church."

I don't think these are equivalent phrases, and while TNC has a fair point to make, perhaps his leap to get there has been less than fair.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Dwood — Wed, 13 May 2009 22:00:37 -0000

I'm curious, then, TNC...

What would you have the POTUS, regarding this matter, say and do? And, jusssst so you know.....

It's quite weird to understand that I am now older than the current president of my alma mater. I finished Morehouse two years before Robert (Dr. Franklin) and remember the boy well runnin' 'round the campus - as was I.

This quote is,(and thank you so much for publishing it - the entire address is "classic" Robert) certainly from the days of Dr. Benjamin Mays, Dr. Hugh Gloster, and Drs. Keith and Massey (which takes you from about 1940 to the present),the first time on a public scale that the college PRESIDENT addressed ANYTHING at all re: homosexuality. Hell, Dr. Gloster wouldn't even let Spike film "School Days" ON the Morehouse campus(he had to film it around it) because he got the yips over the dark skin/light skin thang and how Morehouse would "appear" therein.

Homosexuality at Morehouse has always been an open "secret". Much like being lesbian at Spelman. I mean, REALLY...What are we talking about here? An ALL male and, as I put them in, an ALL female institution of higher learning. If ever there was a time for the term: "duh". We, there, ALL knew and have known. I could go on and on regarding what the interactions were actually like. But a DIRECT ACKNOWLEGEMENT of and POSITIVE address and CHALLENGE to the straight 'House brothas to positively regard their gay breheren??? By a MOREHOUSE PRESIDENT?????????

Brotha T, I'm afraid what you used as your example pretty much means that the earth has shifted sigNIficantly on Westview Drive,SW. And, it's taken QUITE a while for this to occur. This is FRESH, TNC. This is VERY new.

Robert is quite serious, I see, in his, and this is HIS, vision of Morehouse Men being Renaissance Men.

Robert's also been there two years. The current guy runnin' the country???? Not two hundred days yet. Shall he yet be as bold in this area as Robert has now become?

Time, indeed, will tell.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

marta — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:28:15 -0000

I think most of Andrew's critics in this comment thread are responding to more than the one line TNC noted in his post. My own critique of Andrew on race stems largely from my reading of The Conservative Soul, an otherwise thoughtful, nuanced, *gorgeous* book, but which shockingly -- I would say laughably, because I did laugh out loud a couple of times, except it's not really funny -- ignores race. He doesn't confront it and get it wrong, he just apparently thinks that race is irrelevant in constructing an American philosophy of conservatism.

Look, Andrew is incredibly smart, he's got a tender heart, and a beautiful soul -- these are all the reasons I love him (and I do; I read his blog faithfully). But that just makes his willful ignorance of the history and complexity of race in America all the more frustrating. It's not like this is a man who is incapable of getting it.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

sansouci — Wed, 13 May 2009 20:59:21 -0000

Damn! I am with you on ALL of it. Ironically I AM in the business of educating white folks (I teach Africana Studies at a predominately white college). But you are right I see the up close and personal the way many whites seem to enjoy their lack of knowledge about 13% of their fellow citizens and any group of people with a relatively high degree of melanin. And it's not just the students it's the professor class as well.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

sansouci — Wed, 13 May 2009 20:52:42 -0000

Coates,

Thank you. The real deal is that Andrew Sullivan, whom I read and have respect for, has a problem with race and clearly, like most whites, has not taken time to learn anything about the complexities of race, history and racial consciousness in the US. No doubt he has the same blind spots about race in the UK as well. Every time he talks or writes about race in the US in any fashion that needs a nuanced and subtle comprehension, I cringe. Thank you for your comments.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Josh Jasper — Wed, 13 May 2009 20:21:36 -0000

Obama most probably got informed on queer issues by none other than Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who (as you know, because you blogged about it too) ran an outreach program for AIDS victims, and openly ministered to gay and lesbian parishioners. The man was out in the trenches *helping* my tribe with his hands, and his voice. What Wright said about AIDS was wrong, and stupid, but I've never doubted his status as an ally.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

ctp — Wed, 13 May 2009 19:43:35 -0000

okay. i have very mixed feelings about all of this but your comment kind of pushes it over the edge for me.

i am a long time reader of both you and andrew. i agree, andrew does have a blind spot. but i feel this single sentence has been flogged to death. and this comment about other black leaders is smart but it is not fair in the context of andrew's overall post. i think it is all too easy for writers to bolster their arguments with thinly considered afterthoughts but it is also easy for readers to extract those thoughts and build cases against them - thereby overlooking the thrust of the writers larger point.

andrew was talking about obama as a presidential candidate - one who appeared to walk the walk and talk the tough talk. before obama we NEVER had a CANDIDATE challenge the black community about homophobia. who would have done that? you want mccain, an old white dude, telling black folks to be cool about the queers? you want bush to walk into a black church and say what, exactly?

andrew has a long history of talking about gay issues. thats his thing. he's good at it. while he doesn't talk at the same speed with regard to issues of race (and yes, he has a soft focus on minority issues), the guy is far from thoughtless or uneducated (or ignorant, as some have implied in these comments). nevertheless, he wasn't talking about civil rights leaders or college presidents - HE WAS TALKING ABOUT STRAIGHT UP POLITICIANS. THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE USUALLY WAY TO SCARED TO UTTER A SINGLE WORD IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME ABOUT ANYTHING THAT MIGHT COST THEM A VOTE. yes, he took on the black church and maybe andrew's credit was not fully due. but, as a CANDIDATE, it took balls.

gays (and blacks) for that matter, have a long history of being used by candidates to get votes. the point of andrew's post was: did the gays get played again? not: obama is the single greatest and bravest civil rights leader since malcolm. if anything, this particular sentence was building the guy up before tearing him apart? what happened to that guy on the campaign trail? the one who wasn't afraid to say what he thought?

i think andrew pointed to that moment because it was something you don't usually hear in the context of a campaign and it caught his ear because he is a gay white guy, not because he had never heard a black dude say it before.

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

RobM — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:03:14 -0000

I keep trying to understand how you can anything about Andrew's thinking. His fundamental cause celebrat about himself is built on a false notiion. False notions that rikyrah correctly dismissed

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Bruce — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:16:11 -0000

that's quite a "shocking" fact...a black muslim man having a gay friend...u must jest sir??!

Re: The Fierce Politics Of Expedience

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:10:58 -0000

That's not something you see (or hear) every day, and I was appreciative.

You should be appreciative any time any politician says as much. But the notion that you should be especially appreciative when someone black says it is based on, frankly, ignorance.

To wit. Here's the president of Morehouse talking to a student body at a historially black university, in a majority black school, with a majority black audience:

"Straight men," Franklin said, "should learn more about the outlooks and contributions of gay men. Read a book by a gay author. Have an intelligent conversation with a gay neighbor." Franklin reminded the Morehouse students: "At a time when it was truly scandalous to have homosexual friends or associates, Dr. King looked to Bayard Rustin, a black gay man, as a trusted adviser. And, Malcolm X regarded James Baldwin, a black gay man, as a brilliant chronicler of the black experience."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/01/AR2009050103164_pf.html