The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Burden Of Ebonics

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Jane — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:12:58 -0000

From a non-linguist:

Accent is the surface of spoken language. Its significance is in how it identifies where we came from, or maybe our social class. The same sentence can be said in any of dozens of accents.

Differences in vocabulary and phraeseology go deeper; there's now a chance for misunderstanding even if the accent is mild and most words are understood, because of the presence of unfamiliar words or words used with unfamiliar meanings.

Differences in grammar are deeper still. As long as the differences are consistent, there's still a way for standard English and variant English speakers (or speakers of two different variants) to come to understand each other -- happens all the time -- my husband's Finnish-descended relatives, especially the elderly, sound different in accent, vocabulary, and some aspects of grammar, to me.

When a dialect (variant) carries a big load of boundary-making, however, there's the danger that the dialect will start to be more useful as a solidarity-producer or social glue (for its users) than as a way of communicating practical thoughts and carrying out tasks. I think this is part of what bothers some people about Ebonics (even more so than BSE, which is not really the same dialect). For some, (definitely not all) young people who use Ebonics and who at the same time don't speak Standard English, you worry that solidarity is trumping functionality in their use of language. Our history of racism sure does make it clear why that might happen, but you still worry.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

buskertype — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:16:26 -0000

I heard the interview on the radio and was very impressed, although I found your accent to be unremarkable, though your speaking style was refreshingly easy, unselfconscious and free of affect. (honestly I though that while listening to the interview)

It seems to me that perhaps our German friend doesn't have quite the understanding of American language and culture that he thinks he does. Although if your accent makes him feel a certain way he is entitled to his feelings.

You hit the nail on the head when you say that you take offense to his lack of curiosity. An aversion to distinctive accents is more of a problem for a child's development in this country than the possession of such an accent would be. In my opinion.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

sadatay — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:59:10 -0000

gbear writes: "The younger Mr. Coates's essay on Michelle Obama in The Atlantic had seemed quite sophisticated to me, but when I heard him speak I thought, unfortunately, that an editor had probably done a lot of re-writing for him."

What's especially ironic about this comment is that it's in response to TNC's original post here: "Therein lies the irony--the desire to patrol someone else's accent strikes me as deeply incurious. It is intelligence as artifice..."

gbear, what's up? Are you serious? How much of TNC's stuff did you read before making such a lame and ignorant comment (on TNC's blog no less)?

Mason writes: "I have a certain initial prejudice against the semi-incoherence of "street" mannerisms, as I do against a strong redneck drawl, but demonstrated knowledge and thoughtfulness will win me over fairly quickly. One example -- the smart kid with cornrows (Wallace, I believe) from "The Wire".

Kudos for being honest. I think most people are guilty of this same "prejudice", as you call it. I just hope that you're not looking to TV shows for examples that confound the stereotypes.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

PatricktheRogue — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:31:18 -0000

Alot of this debate has to do with nonverbal behavior. Having recently finished a master's seminar on the topic, this discussion seems very familiar. As many here have picked up on, accent and dialect can be used as nonverbal signals by those intelligent/skillful enough to do so, such as President Obama. (Yes, they are "vocal" cues but still "nonverbal.") Some people are stuck in one accent and either do not have the intellignce or inclination to master other ways of speaking. Either way they are sending a message. Some other elements pertaining to nonverbal communication noted here:

re: "I tend to pick up bits of accent and dialect from whomever I'm talking with after more than a couple of minutes' conversation..." - it's not pretentious, it's called mirroring and you are undoubtedly sending an array of nonverbal cues as well that tell this person you are accepting them and that you can be trusted, such as standing the way they stand, using their eye contact rhythms, observing their social distance, etc.

re: "a kind of second voice, a rather nonthreatening, standardized style of speak. It's key to remove about a third of all bass...", and

"Ah, how race and gender rule our world! Scaling back on the lower register and speaking in a higher, more breathy tone so you're not seen as a ball-busting threat..."

-This has not so much to do with race and gender as it does with our status as primate mammals. Almost universally across human cultures, the superior person speaks in a more direct, lower voice, even females do this when they are in charge. The subordinate inflects their voice in a higher pitch so as to signal their nonthreatening status to their boss. It's true of chimps, dogs, and us. Deal with it, and get that chip off your shoulder, you human animal. Accent falls squarely in the nonverbal communication patterns. Dialect can cross over into this arena depending on the situation; whether a signal, conscious or unconscious, is being sent. For instance, the dialect used by Phil Gramm and George Bush was an affectation and purposely employed.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Mason — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:05:08 -0000

gbear, I noticed the discrepancy as well. I wonder where TNC's dad was raised -- growing up in working class Baltimore quite different from moving there as an adult, as far as speech pattern are concerned. (And let's not ignore the influence of hip-hop slang on some men of more recent generations.)

I have a certain initial prejudice against the semi-incoherence of "street" mannerisms, as I do against a strong redneck drawl, but demonstrated knowledge and thoughtfulness will win me over fairly quickly. One example -- the smart kid with cornrows (Wallace, I believe) from "The Wire".

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Tom — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:40:27 -0000

It is good to be able to communicate with others...

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Scott P. — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:33:42 -0000

One of my professors told me a story that when he was at Harvard in the 1950s, the students in one of his classes complained because they couldn't understand the instructor's accent. The instructor was from Missouri.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Peter Farrell-Vinay — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 04:07:40 -0000

The accent is only a problem when it becomes incomprehensible (go to Aberdeen and you'll hear what I mean). The problem with dialect is that if you don't have that base of standard received English to work from you'll have difficulty in understanding other dialects.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

gbear — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 03:22:32 -0000

When I heard Mr. Coates in a video discussing subjects with his father I was struck by the difference in their accents and wondered how that had come about. Mr. Coates senior spoke standard English but his son pronounced his "t's" as "d's," among other differences. The younger Mr. Coates's essay on Michelle Obama in The Atlantic had seemed quite sophisticated to me, but when I heard him speak I thought, unfortunately, that an editor had probably done a lot of re-writing for him. My estimation of his abilities was diminished by his non-standard English pronunciation, alas. Is this the impression he really wants to create with his non-standard spoken English?

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

astralislux — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:48:47 -0000

The black dialect in America is partly affected through insecurity, which is what I see among our young black men who exhibit the strongest accents. But when two African-Americans who know each other and speak to each other without surrounding peers, they neutralize their accents.

I don't know if anyone has studied this, but I think someone should.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Reginald Avery Wilkins, Ph.D. — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:18:58 -0000

First things first: this is a great discussion and a great blog. I can't imagine getting such rich thoughts from any other medium especially on such a topic.

This said, I've always felt sort of ambiguous on TNC's street slang. Since I don't know him at all aside from his writing, it seemed kind of clumsy mixing the highbrow thoughts and the street speak - sort of like playing Kind of Blue on a kazoo or an empty box of Boston Baked Beans.

The question that means the most to me right now as a parent of two young boys is what will improve their odds of making having as good or better life outcomes of their parents? Taking racism as a given and given their multiracial makeup, taking away one more excuse for discrimination is a good tactic - especially against those upstanding bigots who are unaware of said status. It may be unprincipled or selling out but if it gets you a good house on a good street then maybe it's a good strategy.

Coming from a military family, nothing was romanticized in our household - especially not language. The teachers said X, the parents said Y and our role was to learn X+Y. Nothing was fair but it was unfair for everyone regardless of race: we were the sons and daughters of war, and what's fair about that?

At school, of course, things were not so clean or ordered. Speaking "white" and showing some success with books was a sure road to harassment from very authentic black kids demonstrably tougher than the bookish sap, I. Of course, one got it from the tough white boys, too. Hard to be a dweeb, always.

So, the street slang doesn't do much for me (I associate it with an impending kick in the butt) but the gems of the content are marvelous. He's getting paid and having fun. If more people had that combo, I really wouldn't care at all what came out of their mouths...or their pens.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Badger — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:06:58 -0000

Aural prejudice is not restricted to Southerners.

I learned to speak Awfully Educated Eastern in self-defense, because my native Wisconsin accent, deployed in zip codes 08540 and 10021, so clearly made tristate provincials take me for an idiot. But after thirty years in exile, New York cab drivers still ask, "So, how long have you been in the States? Enjoying your visit?"

Oh, ja, sure, you betcha.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Broadnax — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:54:48 -0000

English speakers are very tolerant of linguistic diversity compared to speakers of most other languages, and Americans are among the most tolerant among English speakers.

Generally, we accept almost any accent that we can understand. But we do need a common understanding and people make assumptions based on what they hear. As much as we hate to admit it, those assumptions are generalizations based on experience. They may not be fair, but they are purvasic because they work.

Now consider that I misspelled that word pervasive. That mistake lowered your opinion about what you were reading. You couldn’t help it.

A person learns to do what works in various situations. Some behaviors work better than others in particular situations. I recently served with the Marines in Iraq. The language and speech patterns I used there was different from the language I use back in the office. Neither type of speech, BTW, is my native dialect. I had to give that up when I went to college so that people would listen to WHAT I said and not how I said it.

Finally, don’t give me that BS crying about having to put on a “non-threatening “accent. All of us have second and third voices. We all have to do that and if you talk to me I will demand that of you as you will of me. Being non-threatening is a price we all pay for civilization. If you have avoided doing that all this time, good for you and we probably won’t be talking to each other very long.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Eskimo — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:32:23 -0000

Sorry, Stoiber wasn't the candidate in the most recent election. He was in the one before that.

And it was weird, I put his name into Google and the "autocomplete" engine gave one search option as:

"edmund stoiber antichrist".

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Eskimo — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:19:51 -0000

Martin,

My Bavarian wife (I'm from Southern California) says that when she hears an acquaintance from the northern city of Kiel speak, she thinks "fish."

The effect is similar to hearing someone with a strong blue-collar Boston or Long Island accent, she says.

Bavarians have their own special words for just about everything and even saying hello. Swabians and Saxonians have their own distinctive accents.

Edmund Stoiber, who was governor of Bavaria and the conservative chancellor candidate in the most recent election, had an obvious Bavarian accent. This was a handicap for him in the most recent election, just as it was for Franz Josef Strauss in the 1970s.

Apparently enough of the rest of the country was not ready to accept a Bavarian.

Contrast this with Americans' ability to accept presidents with various regional accents.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

quix0te — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:01:38 -0000

To me this is the same discussion as "I speak X language. Should my children be forced to learn grammatical english when they speak X perfectly well.", its simply to a lesser degree.

I'm from the south. And I am lucky enough to have little or no southern accent. I say lucky enough because there is a very real stereotype of the dumb southerner, that many people buy into. The reason I have little accent is because my parents were very vigorous in policing my language so that I used proper grammar. Knowing full well about the stereotype.

The ability to blend into work environments and to move between social strata is a gatekeeper for advancement in many situations. Humanity likes homegeneity. Its in the hardware. Get over it.

One of the things employers ask from schools is to turn out employable citizens. Part of that is someone who can move from Baltimore to Seattle without sounding completely wierd.

Up to a certain point, accents are colorful (with a little stigma attached if its an 'uncool' one). After that point, they become handicaps.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Btesh — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:00:11 -0000

Deleted. Think before you write.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

typewriter keypress — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:44:44 -0000

An interesting piece, and I agree for the most part. However, there are problems where accent DOES negatively affect one's ability to effectively communicate.

An example: Fifty. Many pronounce the word as "fitty", and I don't really have a problem with that, as I understand it to be related to accent. On the counter, because it has become commonly acceptable to be pronounced "fitty", many younger people do write it as "fity" or "fitty" instead of the proper way, "fifty."

I agree that it is intellectual school-yard bullying to look down at someone with an accent as intellectually inferior. Just so, it is ludicrous to presume someone sans-accent is naturally highly intelligent.

The previously mentioned "fifty" vs "fity" is just merely one example. The high amount of slang, double-negatives, and bizarre sentence structures are often reflective of how that individual's accent shapes their speech. That speech then tarnishes their written ability, which completely minimizes their credibility and perception to others.

As other commentators have noted, an accent is one thing, an inability to speak properly is another. When the former begins to negatively affect the latter, I would suggest that the individual think about trying to tone down their accent.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Taxpayer — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:32:22 -0000

Deleted. Think before you write.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

J. Bandego — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:21:46 -0000

Deleted. Read the piece before you write.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

David James — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:13:55 -0000

Ta-Nehisi, I heard you on Fresh Air yesterday. I thought it was wonderful. I grew up in the '60s and as a white "old leftist" had many contacts with the Chicago and Indianapolis Panthers. I thought them to be articulate, honest, and friendly because they were secure in their worldview and, if you get me, had nothing to fear. I've ordered your book.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

judy — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:33:40 -0000

We constantly hear that if children speak a dialect they will be unsuccessful. Yet I wonder about this. English speakers from the Caribbean are some of the most successful immigrants to the U.S. Yet you only have to hang out with them in Brooklyn to know that their every day speech is hardly standard English.

A similar phenomena can be seen in Scotland. Your average Scot uses so many non-standard English words that it can sometimes be hard to understand what they are saying. Yet the Scots do just fine when they emigrate to England, Australia and other English speaking countries.

So is the problem using the vernacular or is the problem discrimination.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Martin — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:16:50 -0000

TNC - Ignore the email. He's German. They have rules for fucking everything. I'm surprised they allow idioms and accents at all in German.

Jack - Palin's accent is annoying because it is fake. She's a female Inspector Clousou in so many ways...

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Mike — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:48:31 -0000

I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but having to alter one's dialect in formal settings is not unique to African Americans. Believe me, I don't use words like "synergy" when I'm bullshitting with my friends at the bar. Everyone has to "talk the talk" at work or when trying to impress.

Re: The Burden Of Ebonics

Jack — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:04:10 -0000

CitizenE:

Regarding Palin's voice, I think (and I have no empirical evidence to back this up) that a sharp, nasally northern Palin accent grates on more people in the US than a casual, drawling, southern Bush accent.

Look at movies: The Southerner is always the nice guy, or gal, the folksy, down-home draw-up-a-chair-ah-got-biscuits-on-the-griddle friend, or sometimes the persuasive lawyer, or whatever. Southern accents show up EVERYWHERE, from war movies set in all periods to dramas and comedies of all types.

Northerners in movies? WIth accents like Palin? I just think Fargo. That's all I can think of. Wonderful. Oh - and Bobby's mom from Bobby's World (dontcha know). I've been conditioned to react to Southern voices in a certain way--to expect a certain type of person (trustworthy, or at someone you can talk to) when I hear that voice.

All of which is a long way of saying that I don't think the Bush/Palin accent reaction discrepancy is because she's "a woman and lacked the Yale bonafides." At least, I think the main reason is that most Americans automatically react differently to their two different types of accents. I couldn't care less about her lack of Yale education (I sure don't have one), and I have absolutely no complaints about her womanhood. But her accent! Agh, my ears, they bleed.