The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The best candidate for RNC chair...

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Doc Haitien — Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:15:50 -0000

holy shit the comment section gets heated in these mean streets.

ML&J: I understand and agree with most of what you're saying in response to TR, but come on with that Jindal stuff. No one wants to run in 2012 because it's unlikely that Obama will mess up that badly and the power of incumbency is strong. Jindal's still young and can continue as governor while the GOP desperately looks for a flagbearer. Jindal's just playing smart politics.

TR: I also like a lot of what you're saying. A value an opposition party. However, as much as you try and backtrack from your previous comments, when you say outlandish stuff like the things charles and ML&J have you on record for saying in this vary post, you're not going to be taken seriously. In general, the majority can be as belligerent as it wishes, but if the minority wants to be taken seriously and respected, he has to respect the majority; for quite some time you were acting like an asshole to many, and you continue to be an apologist for the Republicans. That said, I think you are a valued comments on this blog.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

MoeLarryAndJesus — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:43:38 -0000

Tommy R again: "I said the song was racist or racially insensitive. I basically said he should be silenced. How is that apologizing or excusing?

The idea that Republicans are somehow uniquely bad or bigoted people was just not something I agree with, that's all. "

Oh PUH-LEEZE, Tommy. You didn't stop there. You had to add that the most racist people you know are Democrats. A claim no one here can confirm, of course, and one which is ENTIRELY self and party-serving.

You're trying to pull off the same "maverick" act McCain tried to sell, but that doesn't work when you're behaving as a party apparatchik, and that's what you've been doing here. Like tomtom said, peddle those wares elsewhere.

By design, action and rhetoric the GOP is the party of racism in the US today. I see no reason to think that will change tomorrow, and neither does Bobby Jindal, which is why he's already announced he won't run in 2012.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

B-Rob — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:18:41 -0000

charles, I'm not sure I would agree that the GOP is the "party of racism." It is not enshrined as policy like calling it the "party of tax cuts" or calling the Dems the "party of universal health care." And I think we cannot ignore the fact that in 2006, the GOP was running serious Black candidates for statewide office in Maryland, Penn., and Ohio, too. i don't buy the whole "you have to be a self-hating Black person" to be in the GOP anymore than I buy the idea that you have to be a lily-livered White person to be a Dem.

That said, there is one fundamental difference between the conservative miscreants and the liberal a-holes: the conservatives in many cases are high party officers, like Saltsman. The liberals who do the same kind of thing typically are not party leaders.

Another thing that the GOP needs to come to grip with: the great unwashed that showed up on YouTube during the campaign and basically drove many a White moderate to Obama. I mean, seriously, that Palin rally in Strongsville, Ohio? (I used to live there -- a nice town, really.) How could you watch the unmitigated ignorance and racism and act like it meant nothing? How many Asians saw the California GOP group's "Obama Bucks" and wondered "gee, what would they call me if I ran for office?"? GOPers NEVER ask that question, or consider the ramifications. Instead, all you hear from the GOPer side is the cop-out phrase "isolated incident." Only when it happens over and over again, in state after state after state, it doesn't look so isolated, does it? And when I see video of racist behavior at a GOP rally, but only hear rumors of intemperate conduct at an Obama rally, it doesn't have nearly the juice, does it?

So here we are: the GOP is now the party that stormfront.com rallies to and Hannity is boosting something called "the resistence" . . . nice, cons, nice!

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

charles — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:50:52 -0000

TR: Sigh, I forgot to respond to one thing.

Charles:"Saltzman spout their racist crap, and other Republicans like Thomas R come in and excuse and support it"

TR: This is just a lie. I never excused or supported Saltzman's actions. My first post said "Party strategists are scum", who do you think I meant by that? Saltzman was Huckabee's strategist. I said the song was racist or racially insensitive. I basically said he should be silenced. How is that apologizing or excusing?

Charles: mea culpa, my line should have been:

people like Saltzman spout their racist crap, and other Republicans like Thomas R come in and tell us that the Dems are the "real" racists, and the problem in the GOP is not racism, but "communication" problems, thus acting as lapdogs for the racists.

(TR: "The most racist people I know are Democrats, but Democrats are better liars and more skillfull evaders. Republicans right now suck at communication. All their base hatreds just come out rather than being masked the way a good Democrat would.")

so my point, proven by TR's words, is that he represents the GOP's attempt at writing off open racism and hostility to minority groups as "bad communication" while claiming that despite an obvious reord that proves otherwise, the Dems are the real racists. that is completely non-serious and laughable, and in my book, is a textbook case of apologizing for the PARTY of racism. and that makes him a lapdog for racist Republicans, IMO.

the GOP is the PARTY of racism, that doesn't mean all Repubs are racists, and it certainly doesn't men all Dems are non-racist. but it does mean when you support the GOP you support racism, simple and plain. and in that case, obfuscation is the only path for those who want to support the GOP and claim not to support racism, thus we get responses like Thomas R's.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

tomtom — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:42:29 -0000

I hope TR sticks around too. He has interesting ideas, and if the Republicans have any sense they will start listening to folks like him.

I think a main disconnect in this thread is that TR made a lot of points about how the Republicans can improve their game on a board where most readers don't want the Republicans to improve their game. They want the Republicans to go down in flames.

If you think (as I do) that Republican rule has been catastrophic for our nation you want the Republicans as far away from power as long as possible. But all good things must end. TR, like Ross Douthat, Reihan Salam, David Frum, Jim Pinkerton and a few others know the Republican Party is in real trouble and they are looking for solutions. Democrats are smart to pay attention to these people even if we do not approve of their mission. It is always smart politics to listen to the smart people on the other side. A big reason Rove failed so badly is that he did not appreciate how the Democrats were successfully chiseling in on his narrow margins.

We can take comfort that there are so few smart people on the other side. Most of the leadership seems to be stuck in the '80s when all you had to do to gather a crowd is mention Jimmy Carter or welfare or taxes. A few understand America has moved on, that the Democratic Party has cleaned up their act and shed a lot of liabilities. They are the conservatives to watch, because eventually they will lead their party out of the wilderness. If we have listened we too can adapt too and delay the eventual Republican ascendence.

America is a two-party nation which tilts in cycles. The turn-of-the-century Republican ascendence lasted up to the Depression. The New Deal Democratic ascendence lasted about up to Nixon, its death was artificially delayed by Watergate. The last Republican ascendence lasted 30-40 years. A good run, but it is now over.

We need to watch the Republicans and stay flexible to stretch out our day in the sun. Listening to people like TR doesn't men agreeing with them, but there is no point being uncivil. They will be the ones to tell us things we don't want to hear but need to consider.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Triumvere — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:46:11 -0000

"It's time for liberals to be tough, yes. Assholes, no."

Yes. The "angry left" can be retired now (preferably a mercy killing). The Democrats have won, it it wasn't by riding a wave of Kossac bile: it was Obama's hope, change and unity message. I know being a culture warrior feels good, but that bullshit does nothing but hurt the party. It certainky doesn't get the independants (ie me) on your side.

"That is his analysis of what will WIN HIM HIS PARTY. So rather than castigate Chip-ster, maybe we should ask:

what about eh GOP makes him think that was a winning idea? It certainly would not win the OTHER PARTY'S LEADERSHIP. So why is his party so different?"

This, this, this. I'll say it again, the party leadership needs to go. Republicans need a generational shift, and a new movement lead by a charasmatic and capable leader. The big tent has collapsed. Now there needs to be knock-down, drag-out fight between the thecons and social conservatives on one side and the libertarians and fiscal conservatives on the other. I know who I'm rooting for.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

zacksback — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:27:18 -0000

It's time for liberals to be tough, yes. Assholes, no.

I'm gonna go hang out in the green room with Carrington Ward, Augustine, and KevDog. As I like to say: This situation is now a dick-measuring contest, and God did not give me the prerequisite equipment to compete. I'm happy to hand MoeLarryAndJesus a ruler before I leave, though.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

KevDog — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:46:06 -0000

Boy, go away for an afternoon and look at all the fun I miss.

TR, I hope you stick around.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Thomas R — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:35:29 -0000

Sigh, I forgot to respond to one thing.

"Saltzman spout their racist crap, and other Republicans like Thomas R come in and excuse and support it" charles

The idea that Republicans are somehow uniquely bad or bigoted people was just not something I agree with, that's all.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Thomas R — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:24:35 -0000

"What do you make of Colin Powell's remarks concerning the direction of the GOP?" Augustine

TR: I think he's pointing out an area of legitimate concern and like most people who do that he might be exaggerating a bit for greater effect.

However I think I stated that the Republicans of today do encourage Islamophobia and homophobia. This is part of what I found so loathsome about Giuliani's campaign. His pro-choice stance meant he basically "doubled down" on appealing to the pro-torture/Anti-Islam crowd. A black gay Giuliani supporter named Deroy Murdock even did "hurray for waterboarding" or some such crud. And then you had the Tancredo/Hunter/Malkin wing encouraging hostility to Mexicans.

However to condemn these elements is not the same as saying the Republican Party is racist as such or in some fundamental way. I think part of where I went wrong is I was also treating Republicans in monolithic terms. I was fairly consistent that 15-25% of them are racist and a larger percent might be accepting of racism to get what they want. However the Republicans aren't all one thing. My hope is that this wing will realize they screwed up everything. The Limbaughs and Coulters made McCain damaged goods who felt forced to move Right when he should've moved to the center. His losing was inevitable, but he could've done better.

However many of you seemed to believe the racist element will loom larger, which to me makes no sense. The homophobic element may loom larger, in hopes of getting more Latino church-goers, but the racist element is clearly a losing proposition. Even just on a pragmatic level. If it were otherwise Tancredo or Hunter would've done well rather than tanking horribly. (For all I'm picking on him Tancredo is not precisely 100% bad, who is, he was really involved on issues concerning genocide in Sudan when long before it was on the radar screen)

"Wrong. It's unfair and not useful for you," Tyro

TR: Wrong, it's unfair and unuseful for democracy. The Republicans are not going to be replaced by the Green Party or the New Bullmoose Party or something. So you're left in a position where its total Democratic rule or rule by racists for you.

True I said equally harsh things about the Democratic Party, but I was fairly clear even then that there are other wings to the Party. Besides which I backed off a bit. The Democrats are not intentionally a party that enculcates disdain for my life or my family, it's more like a weird byproduct. Likewise many Republican policies that hurt blacks or Hispanics I think are not intended to that, they just kind of do.

"Didn't Obama win because he found a mature way to deal with opposition? Isn't that his deal?" tomtom

TR: Mostly yes. I think you shouldn't mix up me criticizing the Democratic Party, or online activist groups, with criticizing every Democratic politician in America. Obama is a person I have strong political disagreements with, but I have a good deal of respect toward. If I'd been voting for "guy I'd like on my University's faculty" I likely would have voted for him. There are others too. I have a good deal of respect for Russ Feingold as well. I haven't followed them too closely but the Democratic governors of Montana and West Virginia also seem to have many good qualities.

"but you aren't going to make a sale here. Too much bad blood. Why should Democrats listen to you?" tomtom

TR: I'm aware of this, at least I'm aware of this now.

Also I have no interest in making anyone a Republican. I mean gag. I'm registered as an independent and I was going to give to the "Democrats for Life of America" this year, but decided my finances couldn't justify it. However I think Republicans have more ideas I agree with than Democrats and that one-party rule is bad.

Anyway thanks to TNC even if it turns out he was being sarcastic. Still I admit I made mistakes and got vicious in my own right. I did focus too much on what's bad about Democrats rather than Republicans being against racism. Possibly because I dislike the Democratic Party much more than I like the Republican Party, but still it did look weak. Anyway sorry if I was pain, etc.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Rob — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:12:49 -0000

why is his party so different? As the Prez-elect said during the campaign- "they just don't get it". I prefer to think they are just bunch of dumb-assess.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

B-Rob — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:37:19 -0000

No, Rob, as I mentioned above, Chip-ster is simply doing what he thinks will help him win the chairmanship of the RNC. In the face of a half-Black inner city dwelling man with a Muslim middle name getting 69 million votes, winning 68% of the electoral votes, and raising $750 million dollars, Chip-ster thinks that he will win the leadership of HIS party by playing a parody song that calls that same man a "magic Negro."

That is his analysis of what will WIN HIM HIS PARTY. So rather than castigate Chip-ster, maybe we should ask:

what about eh GOP makes him think that was a winning idea? It certainly would not win the OTHER PARTY'S LEADERSHIP. So why is his party so different?

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Rob — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:21:52 -0000

Bottom line is Barack Obama is not a "magic Negro". He got over 50 million votes in a twenty-first century American presidential election. That's not magic-that is discipline, strategic, smart political maneuvering. That's what makes this "parody" so offensive, Repubs cannot even give the man credit. He won-he beat you, get over it. btw- I have a project for the Repubs- find out who is in charge of the spell check on all computer systems so that it will recognize Barack Obama, that will get you some points....

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Bruce — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:19:16 -0000

@Tyro...i always thought they barked alot harder than they bite...but your analogy is fine as well!

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Tyro — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:14:22 -0000

Limbaugh has 10-20 million listeners. They're American citizens. They're voters. They deserve representation. Now, I, and most people with any kind of moral sense, are going to condemn and run away from the party that takes them in. But Thomas R. deludes himself into thinking that he can advocate for the republican party while expecting us not to associate him with their base and the people running to be head of the RNC. Sorry, no sale. It's not even unfair for anyone to point this out to Thomas R. You lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas, and people say, "I don't want to be associated with you. You have fleas and you aren't that distinguishable from a dog."

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

charles — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:08:38 -0000

QUOTE "Not exactly the kind of open-minded debate which this board is usually known for. Seriously, the name calling is ugly and childish. Not everyone who reads TNC is a "progressive"; don't hang the dude because he happened to pull the R lever. Believe it or not, "Republican" isn't actually an anagram for "Evil"." ENDQUOTE

yeah, what kind of liberals are y'all?!? when Republicans like Saltzman spout their racist crap, and other Republicans like Thomas R come in and excuse and support it, real liberals are supposed to roll over and play nice.

the right answer to racism is respect for racists, right? hah-hah. no freaking way.

the era of liberals taking this racist shit lying down is OVER. these days we FIGHT THESE RACIST BASTARDS, and their lapdog apologists like Thomas.

(TNC, i love you, so i hope you're being sarcastic when you give props to this apologist for racism moron Thomas.)

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

tomtom — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:50:34 -0000

"you can find a mature way to deal with opposition in a free society. It's your choice." - Thomas R.

Didn't Obama win because he found a mature way to deal with opposition? Isn't that his deal?

Thomas R. is right about a lot of what he says, but asking the other side to be fair as he does is a loser's gambit. Ask the Democrats. He is right that the Republicans really do need to distance themselves from idiots like Limbaugh. The Republicans have been running scorched campaigns for a while now, and the gas has run out. They will now reap the wind, and that is the price a party pays for a red meat to the base strategy. It can win for a while but the other party adjusts picking up a percent or two on the margins. The red-meat party has no goodwill or trust developed with the public as a whole so they double down and toss even bloodier red meat (read Palin). Then it is wilderness time so long as the Dems are reasonably competetent.

After a while, finally, reluctantly, they will listen to more sensible folks like Thomas R.

That's the funny thing. Most of what Thomas R. says is sound advice for Republicans. More power to ya pal, but you aren't going to make a sale here. Too much bad blood. Why should Democrats listen to you? You have no advice for us besides 'be nicer'. Sell your wares down the street.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Ninja Zombie — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:17:03 -0000

sgwhiteinfla: "Now Thomas R or Ninja Zombie or whichever other Republican can come on this thread and say that everything is A OK with their party and to me thats fine."

Reading comprehension FAIL.

Thomas: "The parties suck. I vote Republican because my experience of Democrats is they suck just a little more. "

Me: "Both parties support torture and rendition."

"Why should we believe Obama's "humble foreign policy" any more than we believed in Bush's?"

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Persia — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:38:02 -0000

Nicely put, Nikolai. I think that's all, in the end, that really needs to be said.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

sgwhiteinfla — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:32:43 -0000

Carrington Ward

Maybe you missed it but this discussion didn't have anything to do with weaknesses of either party. It was ALL about racist Republicans who run their party. I am sure its hard to follow since Thomas R was scrambling all over the place to support his "Republicans aren't racist" meme but that was the genesis of the conversation and most people but not all kept pointing out to him that his blather had nothing to do with the racists who are leading the party he votes for (since he says he isn't really a Republican) Go back to the original post by Coates. It didn't have anything to do with Republicans view on climate change or their anti union stance or how they oppose gay marriage. It talked about their racist tendencies.

Now Thomas R or Ninja Zombie or whichever other Republican can come on this thread and say that everything is A OK with their party and to me thats fine. It just means that they still haven't woken up to realize that the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs in the world are going to help ensure their party never takes power again. I salute them for their willful blindness and hope they keep up their good work.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Carrington Ward — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:53:12 -0000

The sad thing is how partisan this discussion has become.

I think Thomas is making some good points about the weaknesses of both Democratic and Republican parties. The Democrats just look good because the Republican's 'dog whistle' has fallen out of tune.

Nevertheless, the Democratic establishment is also rotten with fealty to industry: defense, security, and pharma, particularly. Liberals and thinkers have just been given the convenient excuse to remain loyal by the abysmal stupidity and overt racism of the Republican party.

Obama, and -- to a far lesser extent -- Ron Paul, is a good reminder that insurgency can succeed. Thank God.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Ninja Zombie — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:29:45 -0000

Mason: "Frankly given that the GOP has become the party of torture, rendition, anti-habeas corpus,"

Both parties support torture and rendition. Clinton introduced rendition, Bush just continued it. Obama's secretary of state also supports torture, and Biden is fairly fascist as well.

"pro-imperialism,"

Why should we believe Obama's "humble foreign policy" any more than we believed in Bush's?

"anti-science,"

Republicans suck on evolution and stem cells. Dems suck on nuclear energy (hint: it is safe and clean), science in the courts (trial lawyers hate it) and research into racial/sexual differences in mental properties.

"pro-nepotism,"

Hillary Clinton. Caroline Kennedy.

"...there is no way that McCain should have won 46% of the popular vote."

Most of your complaints are great reasons to stay home (they were part of my motivation in not voting). But they are not reasons to pick Dems over Reps.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Undercover Black Man — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:04:12 -0000

Turnabout being fair play, here's my light-hearted Ann Coulter parody... in her own words, even.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Nikolai — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:55:09 -0000

"Hail to the Chief" beats "Barack the magic negro" any day.

Re: The best candidate for RNC chair...

Tyro — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:09:07 -0000

I'm saying a demonization of them as racist jerks is unfair and also not useful for democracy.

Wrong. It's unfair and not useful for you, because you want to be able to continue voting Republican without having other people ask, "you mean that party full of racist jerks?"

Unlike most people, I don't call for the annihilation of the GOP or ever have any expectation that they're going to collapse. After all racist jerks driven by resentment deserve representation just like everyone else. People who listen to Rush Limbaugh are American citizens and they vote. They fully deserve a party which represents their interests and politicians who are going to pander to their needs. I'm not going to dress this up as anything other than what it is, though, just so you don't feel so bad about the group you've associated yourself with.