The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Battle Flag

Re: The Battle Flag

john0874 — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:40:48 -0000

Would you ask a rape victim to empathize with her rapists' own abusive past? Would you ask a child who is a victim of molestation to break bread with the uncle who violated her or him? Are you of the opinion that the Civil Rights movement and Feminist movement could have been shortened had blacks and women empathized more with their oppressors?

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Re: The Battle Flag

joypog — Fri, 01 May 2009 09:02:00 -0000

I think you nailed it. We all have our hobby [whipping] horses and everyone is intolerant of certain things. And I'm quite sure that each person has their justifications that sounds good to them.

Of course I reserve the right to say they are absolutely wrong, but I think it never hurts to try to understand why someone thinks in one way or the other.

BTW the 2001-2003 Georgia Flag is as ugly as the 1956-2001 is reprehensible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state)

Re: The Battle Flag

WAKnight — Fri, 01 May 2009 00:21:39 -0000

I'm a white kid from Virginia, and I've had different views of the Battle Fla myself. When I was younger I was firmly in the 'heritage not hate' crowd, and for many of the reasons articulated above. I didn't want to see my ancestors and my native state tarred simply as the (unsuccessful) defenders of an indefensible institution. I wanted to be proud of my roots, and people telling me that they were based on white supremacy and chattel slavery offended my pride, so instead I chose to believe a rather selective reading of American history that at least partially exonerated the South (Beard's economic determinism, the supposed equivalence of slavery and northern capitalism, the racism of northerners, whatever). Defending the battle-flag was part of the worldview. Since then I've read things like WEB DuBois and Eric Foner and I think a bit differently.

That being said, my family never flew it or displayed it. My father was from Richmond, and like Sporcupine's grandfather my father's family (and their parents etc.) would never consider flying the battle flag--my grandfather was a lawyer, his wife's father a doctor, etc. But I still wanted to defend it, even if it wasn't part of -my- life it seemed to symbolize at least some of the anxiety mentioned in Sporcupine's post, though not the class element.

I went to high school in Fairfax County, one of the richest counties in the country, and nonetheless my school had a crowd of wanna-be rednecks that did things like try to display the battle flag in our class portrait. They weren't of the class that originally rallied around the flag, but they had adopted the culture--guns, loose living, off-roading, that kind of thing, and near as I can tell they identified with the militant lack of sophistication that the flag represented. The thing about the South and class is that the planter class's influence has disappeared, the rednecks have won. Now, both classes stood (almost, things are always more complicated) shoulder to shoulder for slavery, white supremacy and all the horrible accompaniments, so the decline of the planters (the stars and bars class, in Sporcupine's words) isn't a moral tragedy, but it is a social shift-mint juleps replaced by budweiser, the Byrd machine of Virginia replaced by politicians like Mike Huckabee etc. Where the south used to see itself as more aristocratic and hiarchical, it's now one of the most culturally populist portions of America.

But the redneck ethos, or at least the resentments against sophistication, urban life etc. that come with it, have really gone national--one finds the battle flag flying even in places like Vermont, if you go far out enough into the sticks. There I imagine it stands for a similar bundle of resentments and insecurities that it does in dixie--a disdain for one's supposed betters, for 'political correctness' (the interests of minorities in general), an assumption that one belongs to 'real America.' Thus it seems to me that the battle flag is a pretty potent symbol of the sort of class resentment that lies at the root of a lot of right-wing populism today.

Re: The Battle Flag

orionxl — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:24:43 -0000

Lest we forget this little mind bender:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/10/30/1225381689264/tmpphpH007C9.jpg

Re: The Battle Flag

orionxl — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:00:10 -0000

Wonderful, thoughtful article. Being from Kentucky by way of Tennessee the original article was especially resonant in regards to why people would willfully display something that is obviously offensive to many. I've read quite a few of the comments but admittedly not all so if this was mentioned previously forgive me for repeating. This is ressentiment. In fact, it's almost classic ressentiment.

"Ressentiment is a reassignment of the pain that accompanies a sense of one's own inferiority/failure onto an external scapegoat. The ego creates the illusion of an enemy, a cause that can be "blamed" for one's own inferiority/failure. Thus, one was thwarted not by a failure in oneself, but rather by an external "evil."

Ressentiment comes from reactiveness: the weaker a man is, the less his capability for adiaphoria, i.e. to suppress reaction."

I'm not suggesting anyone is weak here but it's the perception of weakness (at least in 2009) that is at issue, the siege mentality that some of my fellow Southerners and Appalachians display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment

Again, wonderful open discussion.

Re: The Battle Flag

CitizenE — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:32:56 -0000

"That flag is a "fuck you" to African Americans..."

That's really the core issue, is it not? I'm not from the south, so although I am white, I don't see what gives with giving the whole flag thing over, seeing that it is so viscerally insulting, intimidating even, in a way that can have no justification.

But nonetheless, it does no good to overlook the possibility for complexity. When listening to all this, I can't help hearing in my head the song written and performed by The Band in the 1960s, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down," which without speaking to the issue of race, speaks about defeat in war, the sorrows of a working class soldier, his family, and the love of the place he comes from. Le Von Helm, who wrote the song, would I imagine not be considered racist by the people who know him.

As a Jew, when growing up I heard stories about the holocaust endlessly, so much so that I had a visceral response to someone even speaking in a German accent. Then in college, I had a history professor who had been part of the German army in WW2--not SS or anything, just a foot soldier. He was the best, most compassionate teacher I had during my five years at UC Berkeley, albeit he never apologized for the Nazi regime, and expressed when questioned complete remorse.

People of good will can be persuaded, educated out of ignorance; the rest, well, why stand for them.

Re: The Battle Flag

Improbable — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:24:34 -0000

You are right - the original comment by Sporcupine on the Confederate battle flag is sympathetic, complex and insightful. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Re: The Battle Flag

RS22 — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:12:15 -0000

I don't have much to add regarding the substance of the very thoughtful comment that is featured here. I only want to note that it is mildly disappointing, if understandable, that many of my liberal brethren seem unable or unwilling to extend the same sensitive approach to understanding the complex interplay of race, culture, class, and human experience when considering white southerners with reactionary political views as they do when considering, say, Arab Muslims with reactionary political views. In some of the posts I read in the previous thread on this topic, I noticed the same moralistic black-and-whitism (no pun intended) that I often see from conservatives in their attitudes towards "Islamic fascists."

It shouldn't surprise us that group cultural ties are strong and enduring, both in conscious and subconscious ways. And that, as a result, people will often embrace, apologize for, rationalize, or otherwise spin the sad realities of their communal history. They will do this especially where they see members from outside the group criticizing that history relentlessly and without qualification, even if - and perhaps especially if - those criticisms are objectively sound. Born into a Hindu family, I see this sometimes from otherwise progressive Hindus attempting to rationalize, at least on some level, the caste system. Sometimes this owes itself to a genuinely more nuanced understanding that comes with greater physical and psychological proximity to the group. And sometimes it's just raw defensiveness. But in either case, it's understandably human, and we ought to make room for that in our discussion of these issues. Fortunately, it is nice to see, in this comment thread at least, a lot of people thinking in that vein.

I should also add that this same sense of empathy leads us to understand why some folks, on account of their own group affiliations, are not as likely to offer a particularly sensitive response to reactionary views or conduct. It's not hard to understand why our Jewish friends are prone to taking a harder line on Islamist militancy, why our African-American friends are prone to taking a harder line on the flag-wavers in question, and why I, as the son of immigrants, am prone to taking a harder line on anti-immigrant xenophobia.

Re: The Battle Flag

Jay — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:56:05 -0000

The only unique thing it reps is treason and hate.

Re: The Battle Flag

BreakerBaker — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:04:58 -0000

I think the meaning of sporc's question was directed at the fact that the current flag of the State of Georgia is a replica of the less polarizing, but nonetheless official flag of the Confederacy--generally known as the 'Stars and Bars.' I mean, save for the seal of Georgia being placed in the center of the circle of stars, the thing is a genuine replica of the Confederate Flag.

I think Sporc is wondering whether you're offended or appeased by the symbolic choice to lose the Battle Flag but continue to embrace the Confederacy by adopting the flag's more gentile, less polarizing brother.

Re: The Battle Flag

Tadatsune — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:00:28 -0000

I'm really glad you picked that post out, TNC. It seemed impotant but kinda got ignored in the other thread.

Re: The Battle Flag

irishpirate — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:25:00 -0000

The shoulders of giants comment.

Re: The Battle Flag

irishpirate — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:19:15 -0000

Well since I destroyed the bandwidth for that site I found a similar photo and posted it to Flickr.

Do an internet search and there are a number of sites that sell it.

I personally like to do the "rebel yell" as I prepare to utilize it.

Re: The Battle Flag

Jordan — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:52:18 -0000

I think you've managed to singlehandedly destroy their bandwidth.

Re: The Battle Flag

GAPeach7 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:46:40 -0000

hilarious, I can always count on you IrishPirate. I still giggle over the "standing on the shoulders of giants" from inauguration season or was it the roland burris debacle?

Re: The Battle Flag

GAPeach7 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:33:25 -0000

Lmao!! You're a shit stirrer :-) I'm in a relationship with a devil's advocate and it is a true test of patience, which has never been one of my virtues. He is determined to make me a saint even if it is the death of me.

I think this new version is aesthetically more pleasant than the previous. The 13 stars is interesting. I want to appreciate that we are "looking forward" and want to celebrate a more decent version of our history - being one of the original 13 colonies to found the nation. However, the cynic in me can't help but be critical of that same point. I will not look a gift horse in the mouth, this version is a 100% better than previous and hopefully a sign of progress for us.

Re: The Battle Flag

sporcupine — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:26:37 -0000

Any takers on a bumper sticker that says "What part of APPOMATOX don't you understand?"

Re: The Battle Flag

GAPeach7 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:15:26 -0000

I have offended you with my frank speech. Along with waving the Confederate Flag, we tend to be pretty blunt down here.

Empathy for which side? I don't know that Civil Rights activists were empathetic to Segregationists and Klansmen, so much as they did not want their church's burned down, people killed, and to be treated as second class citizens. Progress was made because in the face of unspeakable hatred and gleeful ignorance right won the day.

I see the logic and reasoning, I find it faulty, at the very least insensitive. Would you ask a rape victim to empathize with her rapists' own abusive past? Would you ask a child who is a victim of molestation to break bread with the uncle who violated her or him? Are you of the opinion that the Civil Rights movement and Feminist movement could have been shortened had blacks and women empathized more with their oppressors? So Stockholm Syndrome is your solution?

Fine, forget everything I just wrote. I understand your point, it is one that my boyfriend preaches to me, tolerance, go over to their side first, get them comfortable, get them talking, see where "their head is," and then change their mind. I am able to hold two opposing ideas in my mind at the same time. You're asking me to do the same thing my boyfriend asks me, "Be the bigger person." Which itself is a statement that the opposing side is wrong. Being right is a coldbedfellow, but sometimes principle is all we have left.

Re: The Battle Flag

BreakerBaker — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:48:18 -0000

I don't think anybody really took you as an apologist. I think it's a topic that people have difficulty (for obvious reasons) recognizing nuance without feeling the need to reject it. This is just one of those issues where it's too tempting for either side to be cynical about the motives of those with differing opinions. It doesn't help that a lot of those guys are, in fact, racists.

Re: The Battle Flag

BreakerBaker — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:43:45 -0000

Hell. T-shirts. Yeah. I remember a kid in high school (this was actually in NC, not GA) who once wore a shirt. It was a cartoon shirt in the style of those hick "Big Johnson" shirts people used to get at Myrtle Beach or Panama City or wherever, and it had a dude with the Confederate Battle flag on it that said "You wear your X, I'll wear mine." Or some such shit. It was in the mid-1990s, during the period when Malcolm X was being resurrected as a marketable brand, and it was obviously in reference to all of the X hats and shirts that were everywhere back then.

I don't think the shirt had a Klan feel to it, but it was all I could think of when I saw it. I just remember being totally shocked by the audacity of this dude wearing it. I couldn't imagine how he could get away with wearing it in school.

But yeah, I totally remember shirts and bumper stickers. I even went to a guys house once, by accident, who had one tacked to the wall of the living room. But he wasn't really middle class, as it were. All I was really saying is that I don't remember ever driving through a neighborhood and seeing the flag off anybody's porch.

Re: The Battle Flag

leonardhatred — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:22:40 -0000

we had this debate in my history class. i'll never forget having a class full of my white peers (i was the only black kid) tell me why the flag isn't racist and why i shouldn't be offended.

Re: The Battle Flag

Juba — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:07:14 -0000

I'll never forget a t-shirt I saw in Northlake Mall...on the front, a confederate flag with lightning bolts running down the bars that accompanied the stars.

On the back?

"You got your X, and I got mine."

Hilarious and troubling at once.

Re: The Battle Flag

sporcupine — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:56:30 -0000

I do hope no one thinks I was apologizing for either Confederate flag. They're both horrible in multiple ways. My ancestors were wrong from beginning to end, with only occasional flickers of being marginally better than some of their appalling neighbors.

Re: The Battle Flag

Todd — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:49:33 -0000

Brilliant point, and it's one I've been trying to articulate to people ever since I've started really doing the knowledge on the Civil War and Reconstruction. However, I'd go one further and mention that the bad stock isn't about the Civil War, but much deeper than that. Simply put, poor White America is the invisible category in this country, and a lot of foolishness has been aimed at raising their standing and self-esteem. Any effort to put this stuff to bed that doesn't try to think of a way for this class to make something of themselves is ultimately doomed to failure. I don't know of a single group of people anywhere that wants to think of themselves as losers. That said, since the dawn of the Republic, that's what a lot of poor Whites have heard, and it's one of the Original Sins (though not the worst one) of this country.

Re: The Battle Flag

sporcupine — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:49:06 -0000

GaPeach7,

The flag bullshit is indeed complete bullshit. Understanding the bull is a way of figuring out how to get it to stop leaving piles of the stuff in front of all our houses.

I can't resist asking, though, how you assess the newest version of the Georgia flag?