The Atlantic - Latest Comments in The Axe

Re: The Axe

BB-Mystic — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:58:58 -0000

But this is a perfect example of how bloggers always pretend that they delete posts for reasons that have nothing to do with content, when that isn't true at all. This is deletion not based on unfair dialogue but based on disagreement.

Even if it is, so what? This is Mr. Coates' blog, after all. He has a perfect right to delete comments and ban commenters for any reason he so chooses. No one has a constitutional right to post here; you are here only at the blog owner's sufferance.

If you don't like it, why don't you start your own? There are plenty of free services out there, and you can blather on to your heart's content.

Re: The Axe

stonetools — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:24:32 -0000

Hey, I like the comments section as is. I think that you are just too sensitive to these things, TNC. Be like your predecessor, Matthew Yglesias. He affected a lordly disdain for grammar police and trolls alike, and it worked pretty well, despite having professional tormentors like Petey on his his case.

The free marketplace of ideas means freedom for fools and bigots, too, unfortunately. Its part of the price you pay for having a vigorous comments section, but I am willing to pay that price.

I find blogs without comment sections pretty sterile, and don't read them. Monologues are just boring to me.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Re: The Axe

editorbob — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:51:15 -0000

(yeah, frankly it's almost painful how white the blogosphere is at the most visible upper tip, but I also find blogs whose raison d'etre is "blackness" a bit tedious. So I'm looking for voices that are comfortable being "black" within a larger context - more than those blogs trying to channel the large context within a distinctly "black" frame. Don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but it's my perception of your "voice.")

This comment is one of the reasons I like your Comments section. We're having a continuous American multicultural conversation here, and anyone who isn't learning from it every day simply isn't paying attention.

My biggest hope for an Obama candidacy was that it would open up the interethnic dialogue in this country. Sadly, the MSM seems to almost completely view it as an opportunity for white commentators to tell white viewers what & how black people think (ha!), but here on your blog and a few others my hope seems to be alive, if in its infancy.

Trolls beware, all you do is annoy the rest of us. My praise goes to your regular and occasional commenters who liven up my mornings. Thanks, TNC, for all the work.

Re: The Axe

PhillyG — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:17:01 -0000

I was struck that from the perspective of a hardcore disenchanted Clinton voter, Wolfson was able to articulate a thoughtful message that now, to borrow a line from Obama's speech that night, "he gets it."

I thought it was very gracious of him seeing as how the lib-labs on MSNBC trashed him in their coverage during the convention for being a FauxNews hack (ironically).

I liked it.

Re: The Axe

Freddie — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:15:55 -0000

Freddie, I don't see how discussing criminal pasts of football players is on topic in any of the recent posts.

Second, a blogroll is a listing of other blogs on your blog. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Wrong on both counts. First, Ray Lewis came up in the discussion of Ronnie Lott. He pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice in the murders of two men, and testified that his friends fought the two murdered men at the time that they were murdered. His own lawyer did not dispute that he was involved.

Second, a magazine can also have a blog roll. See that line of blogger names on the top?

I just personally think it's incredibly weak that Ta-Nehisi feels no particular reason to defend his elimination of a post with no swearing, no personal attacks, no threats, no heated language whatsoever. All I said was that it wasn't fair for Coates to scold someone for mentioning the murders in connection with Ray Lewis, when he pleaded guilty to a charge connected to their murder and testified under oath that he was involved in the attack that killed them. In fact, that's exactly what I said-- Ray Lewis was involved in the murder of two men. Not disputed by anyone, but subject to deletion, I guess.

Dollars to donuts he drops comments altogether soon. And I'm sure many will be (silently) cheerleading. But this is a perfect example of how bloggers always pretend that they delete posts for reasons that have nothing to do with content, when that isn't true at all. This is deletion not based on unfair dialogue but based on disagreement.

Re: The Axe

renegademom — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:20:38 -0000

see, even this comments section was interesting and entertaining to read.

Re: The Axe

ae — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:03:57 -0000

language question.

"The trolling is getting off the hook" seems an incorrect use of "off the hook." It has been my experience that something is "off the hook" when its positive i.e. "that party was off the hook!" (which later became "off the heezy!" Trolling is not a good therefore not "off the hook."

Perhaps the white, "the trolling is getting out of control" or "the trolls are gonna get chumped" would be more appropriate.

Your thoughts, guru.

Re: The Axe

Breukelyne — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:44:49 -0000

PS. You could think about just hiring a bouncer.

Re: The Axe

ae — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:44:18 -0000

i enjoy the comments section here.

Re: The Axe

Breukelyne — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:43:48 -0000

Ta-Nehisi, this is not a democracy. This is your blog. And this is the internet. Things get chaotic very fast on the internet.

From what I observe on other blogs + boards, things flow along best when moderation is STRICT.

I would state the rules, but note that it still remains AT YOUR DISCRETION to delete or modify. You are the bartender, and it is your prerogative to cut people's drinks off when you think they've had enough. Period.

There will be situations that are unclear, when you are sniffing out disingenousness or you think a post is getting personal but there's no curse words. It's a gut call, you're a professional, and if people don't like it they should post somewhere else. They're not obligated to post on here, and they're not entitled to post on here if they're not able to follow the rules.

If you are worried about stifling conversation, don't. You know you are acting in good faith when you moderate. There will be those who disagree with your viewpoints that are not trolling. Over time it will even out, I think.

Re: The Axe

fimo — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 08:17:11 -0000

When I first started really getting into political blogs with this election cycle, I would get mildly annoyed by those who did not allow comments, because I'd love to read/participate in the resulting discussion.

Unfortunately as the cycle wore on, I saw how the comments section for so many sites had become such dreck that I don't even bother to read the comments, and fully understood the decision not allow comments.

Welcome to the big time, Coates! And let me just say I've really enjoyed your addition to the Atlantic team, hope you can find a way to keep this blog comments allowed, but fully understand if you make the switch.

Re: The Axe

SeanH — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 07:10:08 -0000

Glad to see it. That garbage the other day was annoying. Do what you gotta do.

Re: The Axe

First Comedy, Then Tragedy — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 06:57:45 -0000

Well,

I guess you've really become an Atlantic blogger now.

Re: The Axe

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 06:37:19 -0000

If you've missed it, it's probably because it didn't get through, or I rooted it out in time. As always, no disrespect, but frankly I've lately come to the realization that while the internet is a democracy, this individual blog isn't. In other words, if the deleted comments/moderation bother you, there are a few solutions. 1.) E-mail me in any particular case. I'll gladly discuss things. 2.) Failing that, there are plenty of other blogs out there with freer standards and comment policies. 3.) Start your own blog and let everyone go for their's.

Re: The Axe

Anthony Damiani — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 05:57:25 -0000

I don't read blogs without comments sections.

It's not really a matter of principle-- I've started and tried for a while, but eventually I just stop going.

Trolls, by contrast, are annoying in the individual case, but seldom undermine my experience with a blog sufficiently that it impacts my impression of it.

Re: The Axe

brucds — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 05:40:29 -0000

Sheeesh....this is a BLOG ! The notion that - certainly in the context of what I've read here to date - there's some virtue in deleting comments strikes me as bizarre. You deleted one of mine that made an informed point with specific references that were relevant with "cleaner please." (Literally that was for "f-ing idiot" in reference to the rather ridiculous Maria Bartaromo and whoever might consider a fawning conversation with her as evidence that someone wasn't "dumb", at least in the sense of having been vetted as serious on any relevant issues - and, I believe, "this s-t".)

That level of language policing coming from someone who extols the virtues of rap is weird IMHO. If you want to appear high-end, 'cuz , you know, this is on the venerable and a tad boring Atlantic's dime, don't have any commments at all. If you want to appear high-minded and serious - in the sense that you've actually got real work to do, aside from blogging - both of which you obviously are, and you recognize that your readership will grow if this is a fairly free and interactive space, let the comments roll within the limits of contemporary mixed-company vernacular and at least a bit of rock-and-roll/free-style battling with/among your readers.

I read Andrew Sullivan a bit because of his rather odd journey in recent years. Had totally quit reading him when he was in the tank after 9/11 and the early stages of Iraq. Had he an interesting comments section, I might have stuck with him to watch how it all got mixed up. As it was - and now to a great extent still is in another direction - it's just watching one guy's mouth move and 90% of the time I know what he's gonna say 'cuz bloggers move their mouths an awful lot. He's still kind of a self-righteous jerk and he's not such a genius that his blog is a must-read for the kind of stuff that Josh Marshall consistently digs up with his crew, so he's really little more than a curiousity. Ross D is beyond boring and his perspective is so consistently lame there's nothing useful there. Ditto Megan, who operates off of a world-view that most intelligent people abandoned shortly after their sophomore year in college. My guess is that having a comments section is essential to keeping traffic going.

I followed you over here from your other blog because you're a good soul (no pun intended), you're fresh (in a "blogospheric" environment that's gotten pretty stale and predictable, frankly) and you talk about some stuff that's hard to find anywhere else (yeah, frankly it's almost painful how white the blogosphere is at the most visible upper tip, but I also find blogs whose raison d'etre is "blackness" a bit tedious. So I'm looking for voices that are comfortable being "black" within a larger context - more than those blogs trying to channel the large context within a distinctly "black" frame. Don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but it's my perception of your "voice." )

But the interactive thing - especially if it's allowed to be a bit edgy and "freestyle" rather than "nannified" - makes your blog stand out in the environs of The Atlantic (which I read, but often find takes itself more than a bit too seriously - I mean some of the stuff they publish is so old-school it's absurd. In any event, given that this is turf once edited by Michael Kelly, that specialist in punk hit-jobs, generally on his betters - ex. check out the serially dishonest and venomous stuff he penned against Al Gore back in the day - The Atlantic is not exactly hallowed literary ground where over-the-top personalities who built their rep engaging in hostile, bare-knuckled discourse are verboten. You're not that type of guy, not even in a more noble cause than Kelly ever found for himself, but I'm just saying...) Leave the comments section as open as possible. Maybe I've been missing some stuff, but this has been lively on balance. The only wat to keep it lively is to leave it fairly free.

Re: The Axe

jaswant — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 03:34:46 -0000

Well, as yet the more egregious trolls from Swampland (jamesryan, PAIndependent, jimmyjamz, texte etc) have yet to infest these threads. Long may it be so, because they take racism, homophobia and dishonesty to depths that might even cause Gauleiter Rove to take a slight backwards step. If that happens, you can either ban without mercy, or close comments, which would be a great shame. I hope this area of the civilized web community lasts, with intelligent comments and reasonable debate.

Re: The Axe

dbt — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:14:58 -0000

Freddie, I don't see how discussing criminal pasts of football players is on topic in any of the recent posts.

Second, a blogroll is a listing of other blogs on your blog. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Re: The Axe

Asher — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:07:30 -0000

I've never really gotten the trolling concept. Like what do you have to do to fit the trolling definition - be factually inaccurate, bigoted, say things that don't respond to the original post or comments below? I feel by that standard, everyone on some blogs qualifies as a troll.

Re: The Axe

Shine — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:02:29 -0000

TNC:

As an unmoderated blog, the trolls in the comment section aren't that bad. It's not really any different than when Matt lived here, and it's better than TPM's, Washington Monthly's. It's also not the echo chamber such as Kos, Artios or the Free Republic, and it hasn't sunk to the levels of ridiculous found at Politico, the HuffPo, AOL Fanhouse, any of the MSM dailies . . .

I missed what went down earlier, I was out ENJOYING MY LABOR DAY WEEKEND. Come on folks, walk away from the computer.

Anyway, what does Ray Lewis have to do with anything?

Perhaps you should post a commenters code of conduct. Try to spell out what will be tolerated, and will not be. It's hard, because other than profanities, there aren't really any hard and fast rules for trolls.

Can't one of the whipper-snapper Atlantic interns be appointed as a moderated. I've seen at the Curbed site when two people really get into it and go way off topic, a moderator steps in, seperated the two, bans them if they don't behave.

I've also seen other sites where after a certain point of ridiculousness, comments, for that post, are simply cut off.

Re: The Axe

Matthew Struhar — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:01:54 -0000

A blogger assumes the risk of trolls by allowing comments. It's the price of an open forum. Sometimes really intriguing discussions evolve on-line, so I don't think the risk of trolling is too high of a price. But it is a price, and I'm not so sure how any regulation, short of not having comments, can be both fair and effective.

Re: The Axe

Freddie — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:17:38 -0000

I'm sorry, but why do people seem to think trolling around here is "bad"? It's been no worse than when Yglesias was here, IMHO, and I rarely found it to be a problem

Sensitivity to the problem, I think, has spiked since Douthat shut down the comments.

Re: The Axe

Jack — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:14:14 -0000

I'm sorry, but why do people seem to think trolling around here is "bad"? It's been no worse than when Yglesias was here, IMHO, and I rarely found it to be a problem

Re: The Axe

Freddie — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:07:31 -0000

So stating the bare fact that Ray Lewis was involved in the murder of two men-- not even questioned by Ray Lewis's lawyers-- is enough to get a comment axed, huh?

Boy, this blogroll has fallen off. Let me educate you: you are eliminating people based on the fact that you disagree with them. You're justifying it with an appeal to "axing trolls". Tried and true, but sad, man.

And to think I've been held up as a model commenter on this very blogroll....

Re: The Axe

Watson — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:06:13 -0000

Well, interactivity is certainly a plus, and it’s nice to find a place where one feels moved to comment, but if moderation detracts from the time and energy necessary to produce the blog, shut down the comments.