The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Teachable Moments

Re: Teachable Moments

speekup — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:18:17 -0000

Anything that is put through the mill of modern publicity and press relations is going to turn into phony, disillusioning clap trap: our charismatic President can run his mouth off at times--as he does enjoy the spotlight. And, as TNC says (I think), you can't orchestrate anyone else's "teachable moment." But I think he was sorry he seemed to have called a public servant "stupid," knew he couldn't apologize without making it worse, also knew that racial profiling in police arrests is an inescapable reality for black men that can't be just ignored, and that he had to do something. I think it meant a lot to him. Maybe each of our individual reactions to the whole confused and confusing affair was the teachable moment (a phrase Obama tried to disown). Anyway, I'm glad we have a president who continues to be a real person dealing with real issues as much as he can (even if I do disagree with his decisions about half of the time) and I do think there was some true communication achieved in spite of the silly spinning of the whole incident .

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:22:17 -0000

no it isn't, "best" doesn't equal a guaranty just the best possibility. Now that's debatable but so far you haven't.

Re: Teachable Moments

StinkBoy — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:36:40 -0000

You got it: "We need more listening, more watching, more reflection, and more time alone."

Too often "conversations" about race focus on the other, so to speak, when it's really about you. How you react/behave differently around people who are different from you, how to recognize your unconscious behavior and what you bring to the table are what's really important for this kind of "conversation" to flourish.

Re: Teachable Moments

Lisa J — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:58:33 -0000

I don't think the teaching the person more will always work but sometimes it does. I think of a few cases I've heard of where individuals who were very religious who upon studing the Bible, the Apocryapha, and other primary sources from Bibilical times who begin to learn more about the true meaning of their faith and sometimes change their views radically. I think of a man who was on Fresh Air with Terry Gross once who was raised Fundamentalist, went to Thelogy school and was really adamant about Southern Fundalentalism and how right it was. Then after he passed the Masters level he went to some different schools, learned Hebrew, Ancient Greek and Latin and read some of the sources in the original and after years of absorbing and careful thinking grew away from the fundamentalist mindset and actually became and agnostic. I also saw a documentary once with a British Catholic Priest who after going to Seminary decided to learn more deeply about other religions and how they fit in with Chrisitanity and after years of study, though maintaining his religion, began to feel that all religions have value and reflect aspects of the same things thus overcoming his upbringing that people who weren't Catholics, let alone Christian were bound to hell. So sometimes, learning more, being exposed to different things and studying things you think you understand, especially if they were indoctrinated into yo uas a child, can change your attitudes and give you a broader different perspective.

Re: Teachable Moments

silentbeep — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:03:44 -0000

I have to agree with you there ellaesther. These big so-called national conversations don't do much on a mass scale, true. However, we cannot know how perhaps the gates incident has maybe added a different perspective to someone's thinking about a myriad of issues such as: police conduct, professionalism, race, class, constitutional rights etc. Perhaps a news article about the gates incident, has become a starting point for some people to enter into a dialogue with their friends, their colleagues, their spouses, who knows?

Even on this blog, people on previous posts and comments stated several times, that they found the discussion on here to be illuminating and insightful, even on posts where the comments seemed to be quite contentious. No it doesn't mean we are going to solve all our problems with just comments, blog posts or talking a lot. But we got to start somewhere, and honest, respectful discourse is a good place to start, it seems.

As far as the need for more reflection and less talk, sure I couldn't agree with you more. But talk in itself can be quite helfpul, it's the attitude and energy behind the conversation that matters. Active listening, pausing without just thinking about what you are going to say next, and mindful rumination, in my opinion, can create real insight.

Re: Teachable Moments

R.oB. — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:54:19 -0000

Not to be a nitpicker, but I think we are conflating talking at one another instead of with one another. The TV talks at you. Talking with someone requires listening, watching, and reflection if indeed you are listening to understand rather than listening to talk back.

Some of my most profound moments were when someone said (or wrote) exactly the right thing that either touched me or opened my eyes in some radical way. Like a black female rabbi commenting on heterosexism saying that it was not her place to tell people whom God tells them to love. Word. That crystalized my objection to heterosexism in my church and in my race right there. It was people telling other people what their love was or was not. It can even happen on TV. "The Wire" Nuff said.

Just saying you can't learn tacitly for everything. We don't live 1000 years.

Re: Teachable Moments

dreiner — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:25:51 -0000

It's inherent in his suggested solution:

The best thing you can do for the Southerner brainwashed by the Lost Cause isn't send him to Harlem--it's point him toward a more rigorous understanding of his own history.

You can point somebody in the right direction, but unless they want to open their mind, you're not doing anybody any favors. If we agree that knowledge can't be forced on someone, then we also have to agree that people need to want to change or broaden their thinking in order to make alone time beneficial.

Re: Teachable Moments

frankie d — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:09:02 -0000

from the wikipedia page on negotiations:

"Negotiation is a dialogue intended to resolve disputes..."

which is pretty much what i expected to find.

i could go on and produce more examples of how wrong you are, but what is the point.

nuance? yea, right.

lol!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiation

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:43:46 -0000

ps glad to hear about the picnic and the light

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:41:20 -0000

"but only if we pick them up and move them forward. If we use them to change the way we look at and interact with the world, rather than say: Ok! That's fixt! And move on."

I think that was T's point here and if not it was mine.

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:37:54 -0000

Also, PS: Thank you for the kind words the other day! I actually took my lunch out to the front porch, to enjoy the sunshine.

Re: Teachable Moments

frankie d — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:35:33 -0000

lol!

the dictionary definitions you provided are laughable. i won't even waste my time, but i'm sure that i could find different definitions, one's that would support my view if i spent time searching websters.

obviously, you haven't spent a lot of time negotiating. i have.

negotiations get nowhere unless there is dialogue.

and in any dialogue, there is a certain type of negotiation that goes on, as individuals go back and forth and hopefully do something other than shout at each other. if a true dialogue occurs they must do more than just talk at each other. the attempt to split hairs and in a "nuanced" way, indicate that one is necessarily different from the other is hilarious.

you can "define" it however you wish, but to ignore the reality says more about you than it does the differences between the two terms.

and your quote reproduced below definitely shows that you know absolutely nothing about that period in history. i'd suggest that you do a bit more reading about the history of the civil rights movement and the relationship, not only between the two men, but between the movements that followed both. the two men conducted a very public dialogue for years, usually conducted via interviews and public statements by way of third parties, but it was a dialogue nonetheless. statements were made in very public ways, and each responded to the other. as i'm sure they expected.

i do also believe that there was actual correspondence between the men, though i don't have dates and reproductions.

talk about lack of nuance. are you so limited as to believe that public figures do not engage in public dialogues for whatever reasons may prevent them from actually sitting down at a table and dealing with each other in person?

again, some things are so self-evident, that it is silly to even address them. i guess you'll next ask me to explain how MLK's "i have a dream" speech actually mattered.

"How did the conversation between MX and MLK (as I remember it MX changed his mind about MLK, race relations first and then they talked but it's been a while) make any substantial change in the political, not intellectual, history of civil rights?"

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:32:09 -0000

Well, I guess the question is between whom? And, I guess, this is part of my sense of a "broader" understanding of the word. Dueling press releases don't serve as conversation unto themselves, but they are intended as an addition to a much larger conversation: the world is telling this story, and I have X to tell the world about that. One presumes that the world, or parts of it, will say Y in reply.

But my larger point is that all of these things, defined narrowly or broadly, can be useful and build toward substantial change, but only if we pick them up and move them forward. If we use them to change the way we look at and interact with the world, rather than say: Ok! That's fixt! And move on.

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:16:26 -0000

ee, dialogue, at minimum, seems to be centered on being an exchange, no?

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:14:05 -0000

and @ albatross: Oh, how I love xkcd! I think I would marry xkcd if I could. Can I tell you what? If Randall Munroe were to ever include me in one of his cartoons, Cory Doctrow or President Obama style, I could die a happy woman.

(Note to self: Go do something worthy of Randall Munroe's attention).

Also: I love the notion of the POTUS opening a cupboard and going "uh... we're out of beer."

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:13:51 -0000

"my whole problem with this idea of unguided alone time is that it's based on the assumption people want to change how they think"

where is this assumption in what TNC wrote?

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:11:09 -0000

I would submit that we have to look at the word "dialogue" both more broadly and more narrowly. Press releases are a part of the dialogue. Sitting around the patio table with Joe the Veep and having that picture flash across the world is part of the dialogue. The social dialogue that we have on issues that matter to us deeply goes well beyond sitting in a room and having official words.

But (as I've said in another comment, so I'll keep it brief), if "dialogue" is seen as an end to itself, it will be sound and fury signifying nothing (or, very little). No single exchange can bring about substantial changes, but if we allow each exchange to play a role in something larger, to contribute to a wider effort that goes beyond just talking, then dialogue/press releases can play a very important role.

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:04:24 -0000

Also: I have to respectfully disagree about the importance of symbols and figureheads and big men (and women).

These are not enough, in and of themselves -- absolutely. But they move the conversation, they move perception, they force things into our heads that we (perhaps) were not thinking about before. Again: To the extent that these things/people are used as tools, rather than a be-all-end-all, they are (to my mind) very important -- e.g.: the fact of President Barack Hussein Obama is not The End of Racism, but the symbolism inherent in his Presidency can help us address racism more openly and with greater courage than we could have even a year ago. It's up to us to do address it honestly.

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:04:18 -0000

your ideas aren't radical just not very nuanced. The difference between negotiations and dialogue can pretty much summed up in their dictionary defs, but one is an exchange of idea(l)s with the hope/promise of mutual understanding and the other is a contest of agendas. How did the conversation between MX and MLK (as I remember it MX changed his mind about MLK, race relations first and then they talked but it's been a while) make any substantial change in the political, not intellectual, history of civil rights? This isn't an attack on you just asking you to try and see/understand in a more detail oriented way.

Re: Teachable Moments

ellaesther — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:58:15 -0000

I think the problem is when we treat the talking as an end to itself. "Dialogue" only works if it is seen as a tool, a way to get someplace else. There is value to expressing oneself and to simply hearing the thoughts of the "other side" (whatever "side" that might be -- I will admit that my thoughts immediately go to Israeli/Palestinian coexistence efforts, because that's where I have my greatest experience), but in truth, that can only bring you so far. If you don't move ahead from the conversation into "more listening, more watching, more reflection, and more time alone" -- and, you didn't say this TNC but I think it's inherent to what you did say, more training (of the self, of society) to look for teachable moments -- then it's so much hot air.

I wrote once in the Christian Science Monitor about the hesitancy of white people like myself -- life-long liberals, lots of experience with the Black middle class -- to engage in the conversation, for fear of looking like a fool. It is easily the most shame-inducing thing I have ever written (and I've written about a lot of uncomfortable subjects), but I felt someone needed to say it. Since writing it, through conversations like this one here and at another site, I feel a little less ignorant, and much more willing to admit my ignorance, than I did when writing the piece in question, but the heart of it remains true. And so, though I am not proud of the side of me that this essay reflects, I feel like I've become a part of this little community and it would seem dishonest if I didn't bring it up -- so, here it is, if you're interested: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0713/p09s01-coop.html?page=1

Re: Teachable Moments

frankie d — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:49:02 -0000

what are "political negotiations" if they not examples of dialogue?

"negotiations" necessarily involve a dialogue of some sort. one doesn't sit in a room and have a monologue with oneself and have negotiations. it is a dynamic process. between parties. by definition.

and you even acknowledge that he was actually moved from "dragging" his feet to the action he ultimately took.

that is the perfect example of what i am writing about.

it happened. it is history. you cannot go back in time and change it in order to make a point.

easy.

the truce between malcolm x and MLK.

at one point, malcolm x had nothing but contempt for MLK, but through dialogue and personal interaction, he came to at least respect the man. which was extremely beneficial for the civil rights movement.

btw, i find it incredible that you would even argue against the idea the dialogue between leaders makes a differnce.

some things are pretty self-evident.

this idea is one of them. it's incredible that it's even "controversial" or contested.

i have ideas that are pretty radical in their own way, but this isn't one of them.

or so i thought.

Re: Teachable Moments

Carrington — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:46:42 -0000

When you put it this way, it does speak well of Crowley that he was able to check out and separate the personal from the professional -- sitting down with a fellow he'd arrested one week before (and who wasn't from his neighborhood by any means).

Re: Teachable Moments

Mavis Beacon — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:46:04 -0000

I was initially inclined to agree with you about "teachable moments" from on high, but NPR did a piece yesterday on how police departments are reacting to the incident and it was generally encouraging. Sure there are some chiefs who say the lesson to be learned is that you shouldn't talk back to cops, boy, but there are others who are using it as an opportunity to make sure their cops don't get called stupid on national tv.

Anyway, we can hope.

Re: Teachable Moments

Jennifer D. — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:41:13 -0000

My Dad's views about race changed some only after he started working with a black woman, the first black person he ever really knew personally. They ended up sitting next to each other for fifteen years in their small office, and she became a very dear friend. But I know for sure they never once had a "dialogue around race." Seems to me these personal relationships are what ultimately change perspective and behavior, but the pace is glacial. I do think what Obama did is a good model in general for adults resolving disputes, but the idea that it will somehow change anyone's mind, except possibly the guys around the table, is kind of silly.

Re: Teachable Moments

dmf — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:32:27 -0000

jfk always wanted civil-rights but was dragging his heels, had other priorities, and was forced through political tactics/negotiations to step it up. so any others?