The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Speaking Of Which...

Re: Speaking Of Which...

GregSanders — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:52:22 -0000

Nice critique. Well, if you want a bit less fantastical, you can always cut a deal with whichever power brokers are willing to sell the thing. Both easier and cheaper than sending in avatars, although as you say with the resource curse example it tends to end up with the power brokers handling the oppression.

The worst of the trailers I've seen of late is Surrogate. Oddly enough, I've also seen a subtle trailer for Avatar, it even played down the protagonist being in a wheel chair aspect.

Regardless, movie that most angered me for failing to understand basic economics: Robots. Evil corporation stops selling spare parts for poor robots. Obviously the only solution is to take over the corporation to make it benign again. One couldn't, say, start producing those parts and take over the market, that would be crazy.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Tom — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:01:45 -0000

Regarding finding storytelling in a MMORPG environment, you're unlikely to

find much quality stuff. But it can certainly can be found as an internet underground niche thing, perhaps primarily in privately run NWN 1 servers where role-playing and characterization is strictly enforced and where administrators spin elaborate plots and can easily change the world to reflect player wrought changes. Maybe the best example is Escaped from the Underdark: Archipelago, www.escapedfromunderdark.com

Certainly video games are just another potential form of story telling though, and as the genre matures there will be some interesting stuff. Difficult to imagine that a playerbase of millions can

be devoted to cooperative storytelling though as opposed to a few hundred. Or that a for profit enterprise would enforce such a thing - after all, any decent story will have some characters that die... and stay dead.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

miss modal — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:59:52 -0000

Dang;

I thought this movie was going to be about space or something - like spaceships and weird supernatural things; you know, kind of mystical/creepy. this looks like a rich man's 'battlefield earth' but without travolta and forest whitaker absurd acting performances. ugh.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Rainy — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:06:16 -0000

CG is ruining a lot of films. I can't stand the CG in this movie. It looks like it belongs in a video game. I know doing the old way costs a lot of money but they need to start making that investment if they want to have a long standing franchise like Star Wars or LOTR. District 9 has some fantastic CG. It looked real. I don't know who does it but they great at it.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

C. — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:55:20 -0000

Yeah, I should clarify that sport related comment. I don't mean to suggest that the emotions evoked by sports are false or lesser; indeed, sports can provoke some of the most intense emotional engagement we're capable of. But when I think of watching a really good game --- or playing one --- it's that's sort of in-the-moment intensity that I think of, almost physical, a feeling that makes you jump off the couch when your guys score or half-heave your body to the left when your guy is trying to jump from cliff top to cliff top. Some books and films can have this --- pager-turners, suspense, thrillers. But usually, when I think of a book that rocked my world, I think of something that made me reflect, of a passages I want to savor, of mood that lingers even when you put it down. A flavor almost; personally speaking, lately I've been feeling a kind of desire for fall coziness that makes me reach for Jane Austen. Games can sometimes create a mood that lingers in your brain, if you play for a long time. But even then it seems connected to the body, to action, in the way that a book hangover doesn't. Peep this metafilter thread to see what I mean.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Justin — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:41:55 -0000

Agree on Bioshock, and haven't played Fallout, but Shadow of the Colossus?!? Had a storyline? Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic game (I'm on the 16th colossus right now, first time through) but there's no narrative, barely a plot, which is really just a premise to get you into these super boss-fights. Maybe there's a ton of story piled on after the last foe is defeated, but I just don't see a legitimate story here.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

farmgirl — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:05:42 -0000

Zuko reminded me so much of Miss Parker from The Pretender -- tormented but unreasonably loyal to her [his] horrible family, on a quest to capture Jarod [Avatar] solely in order to remain in good standing.

And if that series hadn't been cancelled before they wrapped up the story, I would have put money on Miss Parker switching sides too.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:46:12 -0000

Conversation is more fluid in ME, mainly due to the fact that you can select the response before the other person has finished talking. DA has a more fleshed out backstory and I've personally been enjoying the party characters more than ME, mainly due to some terrific voice work (Alistair, Morrigan and the Dog are excellent).

Basically, don't pay attention to the awful trailers and marketing. This game is the real deal. The world and plot are great (though it does use familiar fantasy tropes).

Re: Speaking Of Which...

RIRedinPA — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:36:54 -0000

I also called Zuko, though a little later in the series and I think it was obvious at that point...however, the little ones thought I was genius for doing so, so let's keep that our secret.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

PixelFish — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:27:03 -0000

I think they've been pushing the story telling a little with WoW, re: cinematics in Icecrown sort of thing. But I think it would be a very bad idea to make the levels and experience thing more invisible. It frustrates many players not to see how far they have to go. (Imagine a boss battle without a meter to let you know how far the boss is. You've been whaling on him for five minutes. Is anything you are doing having an effect? How long do you have to beat on him for?) For another thing, a lot of people enjoy little markers to let them know they've achieved something, but again, they like to see the results of their progress. By taking out the meters and HUD, you are risking cutting off a large potential audience. (I am one of those players. I also enjoy story, but I tend to RP a bit when I feel that need.)

Re: Speaking Of Which...

black yank — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:23:59 -0000

Better than Mass Effect and KOTOR? For storytelling? If that's true, then Dragon Age is one serious accomplishment but I'm very skeptical. We'll see. Dragon Age's RPG elements probably are superior to Mass Effect's, which is RPG-lite for hardcore types, but Mass Effect's storytelling would be extremely difficult to beat, IMO.

I'm excited about Dragon Age but, at the same time, I have some nagging doubts. Its graphics engine looks a bit dated and the gameplay in the samples released so far looks a lot like the stilted exchanges in neverwinter nights 2. NWN2 is great as a video version of dungeons and dragons but the gameplay/melee mechanics aren't that good.

On the other hand, the elements of choice and consequence in Dragon Age look to be extensive. And none of the visual/mechanics stuff I'm worried about would necessarily preclude a great narrative.

I'll be getting Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 no matter what the reviews say for either, though, so Bioware will make plenty on me in 2010.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

black yank — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:13:08 -0000

Bioware's next sequel to Knights of the old Republic is going to be an MMORPG. It's called The Old Republic and is set to launch some time next year.

KOTOR, IMO, is the greatest example of storytelling ever in an RPG. When I completed it for the first time, I felt like I was immersed in a totally new and unfamiliar Star Wars movie for about 3 months. If you stripped all gaming elements out of it and made it a novel or film, i think it would be a huge success. Bioware has always let story drive its RPG titles and this MMO promises more of the same, offering choices that have lasting consequences, etc. So there is good reason to hope that there is an MMO with powerful narrative elements on the way.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

jenawesome — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:09:32 -0000

Your comment just now made me realize that Avatar =/= The Last Airbender. I've been so baffled by the previews. I was just about to point people to what Racialicious and Angry Asian Men have been saying about the casting surrounding The Last Airbender.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

emeiji — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:54:44 -0000

Oh yes. They went to so much trouble to carefully appropriate the culture, but when it came to time to represent the people who created it, it was the same-old same-old. What a rip-off.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:53:16 -0000

Yeah, I'm up on DA. I'm away at the moment. Will cop when I get back in town.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:52:03 -0000

This deserves a longer post and I'll offer one. I'm mostly a CRPG guy, so it will be bias. I do love Bioware--the two Baldur's Gate titles, as well as Icewind Dale, even though IWD was less plotting. I'll offer some more tomorrow.

Re: Your point about sports. Football grabs me as much as any narrative. I saw Emmitt Smith play with a separated shoulder. It was opera.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

K_Commenter — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:44:09 -0000

My husband and I played all the MGS games together last year (because I'd been a PC-only gamer rather than a console gamer from the mid-80s up through 2005, so I missed them on their first pass). They work great for the MST3K treatment, and they really are fun as hell and well made, but at the end of MGS4, you put Snake in a microwave and then watch a movie. Then you trigger the end credits and watch another movie. From the "end" of the game to the ACTUAL END of the game was, what, four hours? And an ex-boyfriend and I couldn't even get started playing Kingdom Hearts 2 because after several hours of cut-scenes, neither one of us gave a damn about the gameplay.

I will echo the recommendations for those games, though. Fallout 3 completely ensnared me -- the husband said, "hey, come play this intro, I think you'll like it," and for the next 3 months he had to fight to get his PC back from me, because I was determined to explore every pixel of that map. (Although I also live in DC now, so part of it was the, "Hey, that's my street!" factor.) And Bioshock is so highly acclaimed for a reason.

A game doesn't have to be an epic graphic masterpiece to be narratively compelling, though. See also: "Braid," "World of Goo," and, everyone's favorite, "Portal."

At this point, game studies and film studies have this huge overlap and it becomes really interesting to examine narrative choices.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

tom c — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:41:02 -0000

You get that too? It looks like a cross between that and the Final Fantasy movie that bombed early in the decade. What do you want to bet this thing ends up being way too long to boot?

Re: Speaking Of Which...

K_Commenter — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:37:45 -0000

My husband is 100% a story-based gamer (I'm probably a heavier gamer than he is, but different driving motivations) and he's been nearly wetting himself over Star Wars: The Old Republic pre-release materials. (And KOTOR is one of his all-time favorites, too.) I'm intrigued to see how they make it work.

Me, I'm a social gamer and a fun-things gamer and a take-it-apart-and-see-how-it-works gamer, so I tend to play in MMO beta releases but not linger long in the games. Except that I've been on EQ2's Test Server for 5 years this coming spring.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

stellar — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:34:02 -0000

"good white man saves the natives" - man that killed me.

How about white men and natives sit down to discuss the proper net present value of that little rock that goes for '20 million dollars an ounce' (or whatever). And the natives bargain and compromise as business people every bit as serious about getting paid and hopefully seeing some benefits flow to their communities while at the same time preserving and sustaining their resource as the white men would be in the 21st century. (Or so we would certainly like to think about ourselves. And when are we wrong? No nihilism and mindless 'profit above all' short term thinking here) Right - no drama in that, nor simplistic moralizing. Just prosaic economics where everybody gets a little bit dirty. And I'm sure in this movie their special planet gives the natives whatever they need and they don't want for anything.

Not to mention that this scenario I've outlined is probably just as fantastical anyway- what given the resource curse and all.

What I find most infuriating is that this preview - like most Hollywood previews - basically gives away the whole movie except for the results of that big third act shoot-em up and then whatever trite, sanctimonious messaging comes after. Its this formulaic plotting that I just can't stand, and I don't think I'm alone.

And no, I haven't seen District 9 yet.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

mpbruss — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:23:04 -0000

MMO Plotting: The problem is that in a real fantasy world, only one intrepid party of adventurers would be allowed to kill the big evil overlord and from that point on the overlord is dead and those adventurers are heroes to the realm. That wouldn't be fair to the vast majority of players, and good luck on getting them to shell out the 15 dollars a month. But the way to do plotting, I think, is to allow the world to be affected by players. If you introduce elements of a world that can be changed by individual players and allow other players to see the changes those individuals have made, plotting comes naturally. In other words, let the players make the plot. WoW has taken some preliminary steps towards this with phasing content in LK, but creating a dynamic world is still a ways off, just in terms of technology, I think.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Erik Vanderhoff — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:15:20 -0000

Story-telling is actually one of my long-standing beefs with MMOs.

Lord of the Rings Online, dude. Come and join us on the Brandywine server... Turbine does an amazing job of integrating characters into a larger narrative (though, granted, not one that is user-generated). The gameplay is fun, easy to pick up, and the quests are engrossing. They really do an excellent job of making you feel like a hero in a larger world.

This is apparently the driving force behind the upcoming Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO as well. I second recommendations of Bioware and Bethesda games. Elder Scrolls: Morrowind and ES: Oblivion are two of the most enthralling games I've ever played. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic remains one of my favorites to this day. I'm rolling out of work a tad early to pick up Dragon Age: Origins. All in all, there's some good stuff out there for the discerning RPG player.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Odoacer — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:01:08 -0000

I'll probably see it in 3D. If anyone can do 3D well it'll be James Cameron. He has the golden touch and he's pretty good with mixing great special effects (i.e. computer graphics) with films that have decent plots and characters.

On another note, I thought Star Craft had a good storyline in addition to fantastic gameplay.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

farmgirl — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:59:51 -0000

I loved how it challenged my kids with the notion that there is no such thing as all good or all bad and their reactions to characters "evolving".

The subtleties of the characters was great. I suspected from pretty early on that Prince Zuko would switch sides, so it was deeply satisfying when that actually happened near the end, and in a way that made sense.

I'll see how it's reviewed before I decide whether to watch. If I go to the theater, I'll buy one of those "aang ain't white" shirts for the occasion.

Re: Speaking Of Which...

Nine — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:46:00 -0000

Thirded on Bioware. I think Obsidian is also worth mentioning. Started up by the people behind Planescape: Torment and the first two Fallout games. They made Knights of the Old Republic 2 which might have been even better than the first one if not for Lucasarts cutting development time by six months.