The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Some thoughts on identity

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Ninja Zombie — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:39:43 -0000

Rikyrah: "Name me ONE LIE that Obama told as repeatedly as Palin did on The Bridge to Nowhere and was allowed to get away with it. "

'I will cut taxes for 95% of taxpayers.'

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Izabella — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:32:54 -0000

Rosali - I've had enough of being asked where I'm from, too. I'm white, but I speak with an European accent, so I only need to open my mouth in a public place and, bang, there we go.

I work in academia where pretty much everybody is from somewhere else and has made several long-distance moves to get from there to here. We have a very matter-of-fact approach to it. I'm from here, you're from there. Fine. Now let's move on to the real subject of the conversation.

But when I'm being introduced to "local" white people who speak without accents, it's a whole different conversation. So where are you from? Wow, how amazing. Is your family still there? Do you visit them often? Are your parents still alive? What about your siblings? Have they visited you here? Are they planning to move here to join you?

The thing about that is, I would consider it impolite to just start questioning someone I don't know about their close family, unless they had first signaled a willingness to discuss the subject. Families are complicated and you don't just push the conversation in that direction without giving the other person an out. Besides, would your adult siblings and their families follow you if you were to move to a different state? Didn't think so. Immigrants are normal people just like everyone else, with complicated private lives that we don't always want to discuss casually. It's not all Big Fat Greek Wedding, all the time.

But ducking questions can be hard for those of us who are "not from here." If my response to "but where are you originally from" is "originally, I guess we all descend from African monkeys," my interlocutor will not necessarily get it that I would prefer to change the subject. More often, they rephrase the question again, making it even more difficult for me to find an out. I don't always know whether it's because they assume that I didn't understand the question, or because they think that they're actually entitled to an answer. In the end, what tends to work best is "I don't want to go into that right now, if you don't mind," Obama-style.

I don't mind talking about my background when it's relevant to the context. I also understand that people are curious, they may be looking for a commonality, and they generally mean well. But I'm tired of having the same conversation over and over again every time I leave the house - especially when this prevents or distracts us from having another conversation that I do actually want to have.

Hope that this explains a part of the problem. It's one thing to ask casually where I'm from; it's another to not accept the answer I offer ("I'm from here") and insist on keeping the conversation on the subject, against my wishes, long past the point where I would rather talk about something else.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

CitizenE — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:53:56 -0000

What a great thread. Thanks to one and all.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

taricha — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:25:20 -0000

I just had this Nerd Love moment in response to this picture.

http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/obama_11_05/obama09_16602245.jpg

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Bruce — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:50:53 -0000

@rikyrah

I guess what i'm saying is that your'e not wrong, but i personally see them as more than just representatives of the black middle class...

to me personally (and alot of other immigrants), Barack is a big example of immigrants percevering. To women, Michelle is a great rolemodel and a soon to be icon. To black people, their both a reassurance that shit has changed a little bit (just a little bit) since the last time a black person ran for prez, and a great example of the big black middle-class that been there for a while now.

I'm saying, they're all that, and a bag of chips!

@Fred

rikyrah might have overreached on the whole ho-issue...but my slut-o-meter goes of the chart when ever i see her on TV. Point is, Cindy Mccain is NOT Michelle Obama....

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Whitey — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:46:07 -0000

TNC, you're already a great writer. Don't sell yourself short.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Colin Bartlett — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:09:23 -0000

Man, I really sound like that? I'm sorry, guys.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Colin Bartlett — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:07:03 -0000

The town I grew up in in northern suburban Chicagoland exists as a separate entity from the rich(er) North Shore towns to the east of it because of Catholic Latinos and Eastern Europeans from Chicago. Growing up, literally all but three of my friends were first or second generation immigrants, largely from Britain, Germany, South Asia, and Korea. My neighbors were old Mexican retirees who lived in nice houses on our lake. The popular kids at my school were overachieving Filipino honor student/theater kids.

I'm not saying this to get my White Guy with "Diverse" Friends Cookie. I lived a profoundly privileged life. I knew exactly two black people before I graduated from high school: the family lawyer and my grandpa's sailing buddy Chuck.

I called people F.O.B.s up until my freshman year of college without understanding that it was considered a slur and not a point of quasi-ironic pride. Asking where someone was from was an assumed; immigration stories were social currency we all traded in. Growing up hearing these diasporic stories is what has driven me to study biogeography and genetic/cultural evolution in college. I owe a great debt to my friends and town for being able to be a part of those stories.

I didn't realize until recently the potentially isolating nature of asking someone where they're from. Growing up with families that shifted citizenships with each job transfer, it didn't occur to me that being considered American was an especially big whoop (another indicator of the extent of my privilege).

I don't ask anymore, because I have no intention of adding to the emotional burden of having people constantly imply that you somehow don't belong. Maybe it's white guilt, maybe it's growing up so close to the immigrant identity epicenter of Chicago, but I never understood why someone wouldn't jump at the opportunity to tell their proclaim their ethnic heritage and tell their family's migration story. Heck, I tell mine, even though being a generic colonial-era Euro-mutt manages be provide a tale that is dull while giving the air of condescension ("oh, you're people came over AFTER the Revolutionary War? How positively charming!"). I think we're losing something in this reticence to ask or share these stories. As a nation derived from the blending of African and Eurasian ingenuity with First Nations political savvy, we depend on this interchange to drive our culture.

I dunno. I guess I want to learn a way we can share these stories multilaterally, without either risking the stagnation of shutting down this dialog out of politeness or forcing someone to be a spokesman or woman Their People.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:22:25 -0000

ok Fred, just for you. I'll clean it up.

So, what will be?

'Piece-on-the-side'?

'Man stealer?'

an oldie, but goodie - THE OTHER WOMAN?

You decide.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:19:13 -0000

Yet doesn't it give you some satisfaction that such a large amount of people were able to recognize this? 60% of the people were able to admit that she was terribly unprepared. The only ones that weren't were the 40% that are voting Republican every election. Most of them were even lying to themselves. And they know it.

I'll only say this..

Thank goodness for women.

Women saved us from Sarah Palin.

Women were onto her from the word GO.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Fred — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:03:17 -0000

What's with the commenters calling Cindy McCain a "ho"? I'm guessing if someone called Michelle Obama that he'd be deleted forthwith. Keep it civil, people. Calling any woman a "ho" is misogynist and classless. It says less about the woman, and more about you.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Stacy — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:13:19 -0000

"Her obvious mediocrity- THAT is the rub that scrubs raw for me."

I think your last paragraph nails it. Even now, they can't admit how ridiculous her selection was. It would make it too obvious that August-November was a charade.

More than anything, I think most mainstream media outlets are invested in keeping the race close.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:06:17 -0000

KevDog,

We will agree to disagree. If just a third of the MSM had taken the approach of Sullivan, I'll say it again: the race would have been over October 1st.

Above all else, it was the pretense that Palin was qualified - THAT was the most insulting of all of this. It's one thing to know about White Privilege. It's quite another to have it shoved in your face in the personage of Sarah Palin. Her obvious mediocrity- THAT is the rub that scrubs raw for me.

And even post-election, the MSM won't fully admit how patently unqualified she was, because to do so would be to invite the question: if she IS this bad, then why the hell didn't you tell us clearly during the campaign? And, they don't want to be held responsible for their malpractice.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

KevDog — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:44:09 -0000

Rikyah,

I get the feeling that you haven't read what I've written very carefully. Try again.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Sporcupine — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:31:56 -0000

There's a version of white liberalism that says "welcome to a seat at the table." It's better than "go eat in the kitchen," but still a mess.

The problem (of course) is that white Americans never owned the table.

The conscious intent is generous. The unconscious assumptions are ridiculously self-centered.

It's a shared house, built by shared effort, and the white people at the party have to get over acting like they're the hosts.

The next eight years should help a lot with that (though human folly, including the distinctly vanilla versions, can be astonishingly resistant even to the most vivid of evidence).

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Thomas R — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:28:12 -0000

I don't know if the following possibilities have been mentioned, but I'll mention them anyway.

I have a congenital disability that renders me dwarfish in height and unable to walk. When I was described as "the disabled kid who won X academic contest", "the disabled young man who graduated magna cum laude", etc it bothered me a bit. I felt like an unspoken assumption was that disabled people are almost inherently losers, or stupid, and goodie for me I wasn't either thing. Although that concern doesn't really apply to your usage. If someone with my condition said they were inspired by something I did and I would feel different about that. However seeing white journalists say "so-and-so black person did something great" does make me feel squicky. Maybe as a white person I have no right to feel that way, but it does give me that "Isn't it remarkable, one of them is actually a success" feeling.

Still as that one doesn't apply to you I guess the other concern might be possession. Many whites who voted for Obama I think also want to feel connected to him. Mentioning his blackness, or *Michelle's I guess, could be seen as saying "he's for everyone, but he's a bit more for us."

*I find this weaker because you don't really vote for First Lady and both of Michelle's parents are black.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:17:26 -0000

My fear is that when Obama or one of his African-American cabinet officers makes his/her first mistake, (and there will be many), it will somehow tied to their Blackness. If Eric Holder makes a mistake, he's doing so in the service of the Black President, so therefore, it's a Black thing. It'll take a whole different aspect from all the shady shit that Alberto Gonzalez did for Bush.

Yep, but the thing is, they all know it. They are under no illusions, which I guess is a good thing.

We will truly have 'overcome' as a country when a Black Sarah Palin can be nominated for Vice-President. Until then, deal with the rules as they are.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

jrc — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:04:33 -0000

Rosali, my (white) cousin and I once laughed about how people in new york would always ask where we were from. if we'd say alabama, they'd usually say, 'but where are you FROM from.' like that changed the question somehow and we were going to launch into some dissertation about the great migration to appalachia. but our answer stayed the same.

we just figured it's something people do in some parts of the country. it was certainly new to us, though.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Rosali — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:58:38 -0000

As I said, I welcome talking about my background if I think that it's approached in a friendly way and someone wants to genuinely talk about different cultures, backgrounds, etc. Assuming that I'm not American is not friendly to me. If that's the first question, we've gotten off on the wrong foot and that person needs to try a different approach.

Here is a different topic that I'm sure will be addressed many times in the future and will provide much fodder for TNC posts. Condi Rice and Alberto Gonzalez are widely perceived as failures by the leftist community and by others in the mainstream. It is understood that their disastruous policies were in furtherance of the Cheney/Bush agenda and that they were loyal soldiers. No one has said that Condi/Alberto acted in such a way because they are African/American or Latino. Because their mistakes are tied to Bush, they are "white-washed".

Re: Some thoughts on identity

sv — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:29:47 -0000

in HS a female friend of mine, blond, told me, "you and [chinese kid] are my best ethnic friends." i dont know how much she was joking, it seemed like she sort of meant it, as a compliment. but that always confused me. white people, you have ethnicity too! even if you're all mutt-ed up, you can trace it and probably know it. be proud of it!

sorry, that was kind of dopey in its obviousness, you guys aren't kids on this here blog.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:17:15 -0000

KevDog,

1. She was in line to possibly be President of the United States...and wouldn't do a PRESS CONFERENCE. She wanted to possibly be Leader of the Free World, but couldn't answer questions from the Press?

2. The whole 'mystery' surrounding the Down's Syndrome Baby. Barack Obama had to produce his BIRTH CERTIFICATE, but this woman, whose story surrounding the birth of this kid- that she pimped harder than Tyrone did his best $10 HO, was fishy as hell. She couldn't produce her MEDICAL RECORDS?

3. The entire ' I have foreign policy experience because I can see Russia from Alaska.' This is Hillary Clinton's Tuzla x100.

4. Michelle Obama has her patriotism questioned and raked over the coals, because she said the simple truth about being 'really proud of our country for the first time in her adult life', but nobody questioned Sarah Palin's patriotism, even though she's married to man WHO BELONGED TO A SECESSIONIST GROUP FOR SEVEN YEARS.

SEVEN YEARS.

5. Barack Obama has his patriotism questioned because he won't wear a frigging flag pin, but nobody questions Sarah Palin's patriotism for GIVING AN ADDRESS AS GOVERNOR TO SAID SECESSIONIST GROUP IN #4. And didn't challenge the possibility of her membership in said SECESSIONIST GROUP.

Maybe you know a lot of folks that belong to SECESSIONIST GROUPS. I don't, and don't believe that membership in one of these groups is ' accidential'...that you don't know what the group is REALLY about.

6. I saw those same frigging clips of Rev. Wright in continuous loop for weeks. I saw the media harass and harangue Trinity United Church of Christ.

This woman belongs to a church whose teachings would be seen as FRINGE even among evangelicals.

That welcomed, as a preacher, one that is considered an Anti-Semite, and they had it on tape.

Then, we have the Witch Hunter preacher, and all his shadiness.

I just didn't see the same 'attention' given to THEM, that I saw given to Wright and Trinity UCC.

7. Name me ONE LIE that Obama told as repeatedly as Palin did on The Bridge to Nowhere and was allowed to get away with it.

8. The continued pretense that this woman, under any circumstances, was qualified. I said it before, and I'll say it again: Nobody Black who was that inept, who was that absurd as a candidate, would even be given the pretense that they were. Just doesn't happen.

9. Look up the Lies of Sarah Palin over at Sullivan's. He's one of the true media heroes during this election season. And, where she is concerned, they can almost be counted on one hand.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Marc — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:15:44 -0000

@ Rosali

My favorite response that I have heard:

'My mama says I come from heaven'

@KT

Good points on 1 and 2. Personally, I think that placing a descriptive adjective like 'black' or 'white' or 'female' or 'male' trivializes the accomplishments of the person being described. It really doesn't relate all that much to the accomplishment. Obama worked hard to become president. He didn't do any work to become black. But maybe I'm all mixed up.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

KevDog — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:53:27 -0000

On that, we agree. If Obama had been married to Snowflake, he never would have gotten into the United States Senate, so the whole Presidential thing would be moot.

All too true, and the fire would have been coming from everywhere on that one.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

Choi — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:52:36 -0000

"Also, I cut some slack and respond differently if the questioner is Latino, Asian, Arab because I assume that they get the question too and they're just trying to establish some commonality."

Well that seems kind of messed up. Some people are just curious and looking to get to know you. Don't assume every white person is making an assumption about you just because you've dealt with a number of assholes in your day.

"Stop asking us where we're from..."

You should probably be careful talking on behalf of all non-whites. It seems to me that maybe the Latinos, Asians, and Arabs that ask you that question might not mind when the same question is asked of them.

Re: Some thoughts on identity

rikyrah — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:46:57 -0000

I don't think that ANY politician could have survived what happened to Jack(?) Ryan. Although I suppose its possible that a 70 year old Barack Obama might have been able to afford being on his second marriage.

As long as that second marriage wasn't with a white woman!!

On that, we agree. If Obama had been married to Snowflake, he never would have gotten into the United States Senate, so the whole Presidential thing would be moot.