The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Anuncie — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:13:26 -0000

Thanks for this article, very interesting, i like this.
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Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Bequm Solgul — Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:17:52 -0000

Thank you for the article was very useful article facebook video

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

gillian — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:50:19 -0000

Plus, on a complete but enjoyable tangent, here's one of my favorite music videos by the Idan Raichel Project starring Ethiopian Jewish singer Kabra Kasai. Bonus Indian vocals at the start.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

gillian — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:42:33 -0000

tried to comment earlier but I'm not seeing my comment so here goes again with a condensed version:

Ehav Ever, who describes himself as an Israeli of mixed ancestry (Sephardic Jewish-Spanish, African American, Senegalese, French) makes some very interesting points about "how people who are, or consider themselves, black or African American are viewed here in Israel and in the Middle East" on this video clip. Well worth watching.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

leonardhatred — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:15:39 -0000

I'm still not sure that I follow. What exactly is the criteria for being black back then? Yes, Obama is biracial, but I would think that most people, without knowledge of his ancestry, would just see a black man. Is it just a matter of coloring?

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

zacksback — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:44:03 -0000

From the early 20th century onward, Jews married other Jews, or they married Gentiles who were more like them socially than the average person. That is too say: a member of another minority.

My great-aunt and her husband would concur. They married a few years after Abie's Irish Rose ran for over 2,000 performances and right about the time you could hear Burns & Allen on the radio at least once a week.

Of course, George & Gracie were followed by Stiller & Meara, Brooks & Bancroft, the entire premise of Billy Joel's song "Only The Good Die Young" and the sitcoms "Bridget Loves Bernie" and "Brooklyn Bridge."

So I gotta ask, who are these WASP marriage partners the Jews desire? Are there roving groups of boychicks on the prowl for -- hot Lutheran babes, I guess? -- and I am just unaware? :)

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

boldface — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:25:07 -0000

TNC, I think this survey was poorly formulated, but of course you know that, too. Just so you know where I'm coming from on this, I'm a pretty traditional Jewish guy, I go to a modern Orthodox synagogue and sent my daughter to Hebrew Day School. The main factor you would find that is overlooked in this survey, besides the religion factor that others mentioned, is age. I remember once my mother commenting (probably 30 years ago, maybe more) that she really wouldn't be happy if one of her kids married a black person even if he was Jewish -- whereas my view on the matter is, I want my kid's spouse to be Jewish (as well as meeting the normal criteria of what parents, or at least most Jewish parents, want in a child-in-law: well-raised, good prospects, educated, etc.) but I couldn't care less what race he is. And I can only imagine what my grandmother's attitude would have been - she used to mutter imprecations in Yiddish about pretty much any group that wasn't Jewish, never mind black.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:19:21 -0000

I have repeatedly emphasized the limits of this kind of data. It's true that that last comment may fall into the margin of error. I really have no idea. That said my contention, from the beginning, has been very simple--that oppositions to interracial marriage is likely a mixture of two factors, racism and religion.

I have no real way of knowing which plays a larger factor, nor am I very interested. Jews are people. People are prejudice. I tend to believe that, all things being equal, prejudice is equally distributed across the spectrum.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Kylopod — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:35:39 -0000

What I believe (and have experienced) is that a small percentage of Jews hold antiblack views, but it indeed is probably more common than anti-Asian or anti-Hispanic (though not anti-Arab). What I aim to make clear is that the religious opposition to Jewish/Gentile marriages is fundamentally a different phenomenon. I wasn't accusing you of equating the two, I was just addressing those who do.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Kylopod — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:22:01 -0000

Egyptians? No, I was referring to this verse:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0412.htm#1

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Daphne — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 03:33:26 -0000

A European perspective. We've got Jews, blacks and other people of colour here too, but the social structures are different. So with many caveats that you cannot compare one historical situation with the other, here goes:

If Jews tended to marry 'out', historically, it was to drop the stigma of being jewish and to enter civilized gentile society. It was an decision based upon economics, and not open to most. It was an elitist thing.

From the early 20th century onward, Jews married other Jews, or they married Gentiles who were more like them socially than the average person. That is too say: a member of another minority. Jews married non-jewish refugees, or married displaced mixed-race people from the former colonies who were coming to Europe after independence, or muslims, or buddhists. Or, as the case may be, European Jews married American blacks.

I'm not talking about huge numbers, but this is certainly a trend. One outsider marrying another.

What does this mean for American Jews? Probably nothing at all, since our dynamic is so different here in Europe. But Jews all over the planet do not automatically go for the 'white' person.

One more thing about the survey. I'm sure the researchers did a wonderful job. But 'blackness' is a complicated cultural construct in present day Judaism. We have many kinds of 'blacks' amongst ourselves. The Jews of the Middle-East and North Africa are considered 'black' by some people, and some of their more strident cultural leaders call themselves blacks.

Also, the ultra-orthodox are called black, in Israeli and Yiddish slang, the 'sh'chorim', or the 'shwartzen'. In Jewish Dutch there exists a adjective, 'vershwartzt', which means as much as 'gone completely off the deep end'. This derives from the black garb of the ultra-orthodox, and is not connected to their skin colour.

I could just imagine that some of this spilled over into the survey, be it subconsciously.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Hugo Pottisch — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 03:12:37 -0000

In this case you mean Egyptians and not Ethiopians?

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

shurufu — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:41:48 -0000

So Jewish people are not racists against blacks but racists against everybody?

Shurufu

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

crimfan — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 00:58:21 -0000

Our good host wrote:

Opposition to marriage to Asians, Hispanics and blacks is 29, 30 and 38 percent. I'm pretty sure that all three of these groups would likely be subject to the same variable of religious discrimination. And yet the number for blacks is the highest.

Given the relatively small number of Jewish respondents, this could be only a few people shifting their responses. In short, I suspect that if one were to run an appropriate statistical test, these percentages would be considered within sampling error of each other.

In fact, this could be done easily enough with access to the GSS....

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

chaunceydevega — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 00:04:50 -0000

Clarifying question. Why categorize "Jews" as a "racial" group in the U.S. context? Of course, they were racialized, but how does historical contingency and circumstance play out in this narrative?

At present, part of the story of Jewish assimilation (and thus the acceptance--if not a clear desire and preference for Whites/WASPs as marriage partners) is earning one's whiteness and moving from being a racial group to an ethnicized White group. Could it be that "Jewish" identity has to be "activated" by circumstance, scenario, or contingency and thus it becomes salient at the moment? Likewise, it would be interesting to see how Jews of other races (and national/cultural backgrounds) experience religion as primary, secondary, or contingent?

There are some great takes on this. See the books: Roots Too; Whiteness of a Different Color; The Price of Whiteness: Jews, Race, and American Identity, and How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America.

Some shameless self promotion: see the Chitlins and Gefilte Fish Project

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:50:48 -0000

From the original quote:

That said, that Jewish disapproval of interracial marriage with blacks would be higher than the reverse, doesn't really surprise. Religion is likely a factor--but so is being white. I don't think Jews or anyone else is immune to history.

Religion as a differentiating factor is very clearly, and explicitly mentioned. As is racism. The numbers, to the extent they tell us anything, basically bear this out. Opposition to marriage to Asians, Hispanics and blacks is 29, 30 and 38 percent. I'm pretty sure that all three of these groups would likely be subject to the same variable of religious discrimination. And yet the number for blacks is the highest.

I don't say this out of nefarious aims. (For my money, the real question is how Jews compare to other whites.)I point this out to demonstrate why I argue for religion and racism.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Kylopod — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:49:22 -0000

I don't know where this idea of the Israelites being like Ethiopians comes from. When Miriam criticizes Moses for his Ethiopian wife, I think that is a pretty solid indication the Israelites were different from Ethiopians.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Kylopod — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:45:52 -0000

I wasn't talking about you specifically, but I didn't think your post made clear that the traditional Jewish opposition to intermarriage is a fundamentally different phenomenon than conventional antiblack racism.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

jafnhar — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:12:43 -0000

Did anyone think to ask them what they think of marrying black Jews?

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Hugo Pottisch — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:56:02 -0000

It's irony from my side but the official claim is that Ethiopians were not "that" dark back then. Back then they were more like Obama, you know, not really "black".

PS: I am absolutely pro intermarriage in all respects. I would not almost enforce it like Alexander but it should be voluntary?

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

leonardhatred — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:45:41 -0000

"It is funny that the Hebrew Israelites were referred to as Black Israelites? In the end - they were not "really" black but more like the Ethiopian brown where they originated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Israel#Hebrew_Israelites"

I'm not trying to be facetious, but are you saying that Ethiopians aren't black?

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:20:43 -0000

What I object to is the attempt to conflate this prejudice with the traditional Jewish opposition to intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles. Non-Jews who view the latter as some kind of rationalization for opposing interracial marriages are ignorant about the nature of this Jewish taboo.

I don't quite understand this. Who's making this argument? I've repeatedly warned about drawing absolutes from opinion polls. I don't know how much more nuanced I can be. Given that you quoted me, I'm assuming that there's something in that quote that gave you the idea that I was in the category you cite. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why.

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Hugo Pottisch — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:09:58 -0000

Thanks for the link. Here is what the book states:

According to the Torah, Jews should not intermarry because their children will turn to other religions. "You shall not intermarry with them: do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. For you will turn your children away from Me to worship other gods..." (Deuteronomy 7:1-3).

There is an ongoing debate about interfaith marriage in the Jewish community today.

...

All branches of Orthodox Judaism, both Haredi and non-Haredi, view intermarriage as wrong and refer to intermarriage as a "Second Silent Holocaust..."

Now I know that Andrew will tell me that religion is "evolving" and "adopting" and "moving towards tolerance" and "benevolent" and "also" brings a lot of good. But I say - social and ethical progress happens despite religion - not because of it. And then and only then does religion adopt for the better. What does that tell us? (By the way, by "religion" I mean the "supernatural" and nothing else.)

It is funny that the Hebrew Israelites were referred to as Black Israelites? In the end - they were not "really" black but more like the Ethiopian brown where they originated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Israel#Hebrew_Israelites

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Kylopod — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:47:23 -0000

That said, that Jewish disapproval of interracial marriage with blacks would be higher than the reverse, doesn't really surprise. Religion is likely a factor--but so is being white. I don't think Jews or anyone else is immune to history.

I know firsthand there is still antiblack prejudice among some Jews. There is even a version of brown paper bag.

What I object to is the attempt to conflate this prejudice with the traditional Jewish opposition to intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles. Non-Jews who view the latter as some kind of rationalization for opposing interracial marriages are ignorant about the nature of this Jewish taboo. It is partly a prohibition in traditional Judaism itself, partly a measure against demographic suicide. For more on the issue, go here:

http://judaism.about.com/od/interfaithfamilies/a/intermarr_jew.htm

Re: Some Clarification On The Black-Jewish Stats

Do They Like Me — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:11:51 -0000

I put up more surveys on the blog. This time the respondents were asked to what degree different ethnic groups have contributed positively to the country. This question allowed blacks and Jews to rate other white ethnic groups. Unfortunately, it's the only question allowing them to do so. If I find more relevant data, I'll post it.

Hugo Pottisch:

This is how many Chinese dig Catholics.