The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Sex and Harry Potter

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

SS — Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:44:56 -0000

I had a good time with Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. It is actually the West's perfect answer to Kama Sutra.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Michelle268 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:21:28 -0000

Well said Kmb!

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

kmb487 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:52:16 -0000

I find this entry ridiculous for a number of reasons. First of all, HP & friends are, for the most part 17 and under (Ginny is just 16 in the last book). And there are a lot of healthy, socially normal, seventeen year olds who haven't had sex. yes even in this day in age and yes, even outside of the bible belt. JK captures the awkwardness of adolescent 'romance', first kisses, crushes, jealousies, etc. quite well. Second, the point about the Weasley's marriage is just stupid - the Weasleys are a middle aged couple with seven teenage & adult children, they show affection very realistically for such a couple. Third, to attempt to explain Bill & Fleur's "marital life" would be a total departure from the plot - both are fairly peripheral characters - and their makeout sessions and pda in front of the weasleys are more than enough to get that they're quite into eachother. Would you have preferred harry walking in on them in bed? As far as every character ending up with their 'first love' - given specter of war that looms in the last two books, its not that hard to imagine - how many WWII generation marriages were born out of first love? a lot. Molly Weasley makes this point when she complains about bill & fleur's wedding and how everyone is running off to get married because they are afraid for their lives. And lastly, part of the charm of JKR's writing in general is her ability to paint a picture while still leaving plenty to the imagination - and I, for one, don't feel the need to know the details of what goes on behind Molly & arthur weasley's bedroom door...

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Michelle268 — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:02:15 -0000

Well the fact remains (and whether you find this a problem or not, is beside the point I think) that the books from the first page were only ever from Harry's perspective. We only ever see things from his POV/opinion, nothing happens in the book without Harry being present. I mean aside from the conversation between Dumbledore and Mcgonagall in Chapter 1 (and Harry was there, just not a participant) we never see so much as a conversation occur between 2 characters without Harry being present to hear it.

We are forced as readers to take the information that Harry alone gives us (we learn our lesson after book 1, I think, not to place so much trust in him again). Classic example: Harry Hates Snape, so through 6 and a half books all we see is evidence or opinion that Snape can't be trusted. Another one is Ginny remains strictly a background character until Harry starts to notice her for more than that. This can be said for many characters we meet briefly throughout, just like we will never truly know the number of students at Hogwarts, simply because Harry doesn't know them or he never introduces them.

To the topic at hand:

We don't see the finer details of 'Adult' relationships in the books then, because Harry isn't in the room to view this. And frankly he's like any teenager where adults are purely viewed as asexual and he would rather not see it as anything else (I can recall the reaction he had in the 'Mollywobbles' scene of HBP). So it's not like he's gonna sit with Mrs Weasley over a cuppa and talk about herself and Mr. Weasley. Same can be said for Lupin and Tonks, as well as Fleur and Bill (besides in the case of the latter two couples, they are under unusual circumstances, that are probably making good work of killing that particular mood newlywed or not).

Harry and Co. are not adults, even though they are thrust into situations that are beyond their experience and maturity. They are still teenagers in the most basic of senses: they think a lot about the opposite sex, having fun, skipping class, homework etc. But they have no where near the maturity (despite what they might otherwise think) to carry on of all things, an Adult relationship, or all that it entails. At 17, frankly all they should be getting into is their first kiss. Rosenburg complains that Ron and Hermione's first kiss, was tame at best, what did she expect then? that they should have dropped to the floor and went at it? Give me a break!

On a final note, Rosenberg was also of the opinion was that the Epilogue was poorly written and skipped way too far in the future. Her words suggested that we never see them as young couples (ie having sex, yes, there is a theme here, and no your not imagining it lol) just as wise, all knowing parents, but never how they got to that point (see what I mean lol).

I think she missed the boat here. The purpose of the epilogue (and I'm sure there are quotes from JKR that can back me up here) was to show that what everyone fought for, ultimately, was family

(both present and future). And that Harry got his most deepest desire - a family of his own - in the end. Tell me otherwise, but in a fantasy novel I can't see anything wrong with that picture.

If you've gotten this far thank you! This was something I had written earlier in a separate discussion about this article, hence the 'Rosenburg' references.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

CitizenE — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:37:32 -0000

One last ps for anyone still tripping onto this thread: Octavia Butler's final novel, albeit not her best, Fledgling, which uses the vampire motif to explore some of these issues.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Darkrose — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:35:20 -0000

The central theme of the Harry Potter series was that being a parent is the most important and valuable thing a person--especially a woman--can do. Harry's saved by his mother's sacrifice. Tom Riddle turns to evil in part because he's raised without a mother's love. Molly Weasley is the Ubermom, showing her true power when her children are threatened. Even Narcissa Malfoy, stuck-up racist that she is, loves her son enough to defy Voldemort for his sake.

In that context, the ending of Deathly Hallows makes perfect sense. JKR doesn't give details about what the characters are doing except to assure us that they have lots and lots of children. Nothing else is really that important.

JKR's issues: she showed us them.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Darkrose — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:30:32 -0000

A lot of us in HP fandom, including those who didn't necessarily buy that Remus/Sirius was canon, felt like the Tonks thing was an attempt by JKR to "het up" Lupin. I was totally taken aback by Tonks' moping in HBP, because absolutely nothing in OotP had indicated that she had a thing for Remus.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

sv — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:47:58 -0000

my dad got me a 'books on tape' version of 'The Magic of Xanth' and 'Lord of the Flies' when I was around 10 or so. I was too young; I remember listening to parts of them only - and both of them sort of scared the crap out of me. Maybe I should check out Piers Anthony now.

Also - other than 'The Silver Metal Lover' (thanks Citizen E), any Tanith Lee fantasy/horror suggestions, or something similar? One of her stories had quite an effect on me when I was young. (It was in the "Xanadu" anthology, but I don't remember its title.)

There are a lot of sci-fi/fantasy universes out there which are really compelling, where authors have taken care to craft something that really holds together in an interesting way and then hosts a whole series. We should have some topics here some time specifically about these universes. (I wouldn't be able to contribute all that much since I haven't read that deeply in sci-fi/fantasy, but I'd love to read what people have to say.)

I love Gardner Dozois' annual "Year's Best Science Fiction" collection. I happen to have 2003's edition here with me, and two examples of worlds I'd like to read more about (and in which I know that plenty more stories have been written) are Michael Swanwick's universe in the "King Dragon" story and David C. Wright's terrifying vision in "Awake in the Night".

So much reading...

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Juba — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:09:27 -0000

A post on sexual tension, fantasy literature and young adults, and no one brings up my beloved Piers Anthony and the Xanth series? Blasphemy!!

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Juba — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:05:13 -0000

Super concentrated sugar-free win.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

CitizenE — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:37:20 -0000

Fantasy writing, even great fantasy writing, for one reason or another, has rarely been concerned with an accurate depiction of sexuality. For a long time this was presupposed to be a flaw of the men who wrote them. However, since the 1960s, there have been many excellent fantasy novel authors who are women. I haven't paid all that much attention for about twenty years, but names such as Ursula Le Guin, Patricia McKillip, Robin McKinley, Dianna Wynne Jones, and Joy Chant come to mind. And none of these very fine authors, save Le Guin, take on adult relationships in a realistic manner.

While sexuality may be raised (as people point out with the werewolf character) metaphorically through various types of enchanters-enchantresses and monsters, fantasy does not deal in realism. A few things characterize great fantasy: first and foremost, a sense of magic, enchantment; secondly, the world in which the tale is told has a compelling unity to it.

Although there are always target age groups, the great fantasies, like the Potter books, seem to have huge followings among all age groups. Like any genre fiction, fantasy has certain flaws built into it; The Lord of the Rings is generally considered the heavyweight champ, but it is riddled with thin characterizations, and the women in it rarely strike a realistic chord. But to put fantasy down for its core flaws is like critiquing Portuguese fado for its lack of hard dance beats. People generally do not read fantasy for a hard look at erotic relationships (except perhaps metaphorically with vampires and the like), but to be transported, and for that Rowling brought it. She had the unique power of getting people to turn hundreds of pages without much of anything going on. The finale was really about a camping trip that ran into bad weather, but managed to be a satisfying close to an opus thousands of pages long. Sheer wizardry if you think about it.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

CitizenE — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:18:23 -0000

The Silver Metal Lover is a good one to start with.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Joshua Lyle — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:44:51 -0000

I would say that not going into any particular detail is the particular detail. Sexuality in is notable JS&MN by it's conspicuous absence.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

dragonflyingash — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:27:05 -0000

Ummm trust me I wasn't suggesting she was good at anything. I never used Twilight as a shimmering example, just as an example of a book clearly written to appeal to young adults.

I'm NOT a fan of Twilight, never read it and judging by my friends' varying reactions to it, will probably never want to. My sister made it throught the first book and couldn't even finish the second because she was so pissed off. Your critiques are no different than what Stephen King said about Meyer a few months ago (he completely dissed her series in general). But don't misread my use of that book as an example as a glowing endorsement of the series, quite the contrary.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

??? — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 05:12:40 -0000

Oh please, don't try to bring Twilight into this. For starters, of course that series is going to bring up sexuality, it's a kitschy romance series aimed at teen girls. But more importantly, just because Stephanie Meyer writes about relationships and sexuality doesn't mean she's good at it: The sexual dynamics in the series are completely fucked up when they aren't "traditional" in the Mormon context (let's face it: She writes from a Mormon perspective), and clearly there are hints that she can't fucking write from a broad perspective. She writes kitschy pop lit, don't try to compare that to Rowling's overwrought pop lit.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Bill L. — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:05:59 -0000

But again, this comes down to a choice of genre, not reading level. Really, including sexual development or sexual activity puts an author out of Kids Lit and into the Young Adult category no matter how easy the book is to read. For Kids Lit, you just can't go there.

Look at Tamora Pierce's first two books (Alanna: The First Adventure and In the Hand of the Goddess). Scholastic's website for teachers gives them a reading level (i.e. "grade-level equivalent") of 5.9 and an interest level of grades 6-8.

Oddly enough, according to Scholastic's website Harry Potter books 2-5 also have the exact same reading level of 5.9. But the Harry Potter books have an interest level of grades 4-8. Would a 4th or 5th grader not be interested in the story of a girl who pretends to be her brother in order to undergo knighthood training so she can be the first female knight in 200 years? As she befriends a thief, becomes the prince's squire, gets trained in magic and fighting, defeats a bully, fights in battle, and fights against a man who plots to kill the royal family? It sounds great!

Of course, during the course of those first two Tamora Pierce books, Alanna also goes from 10 to 18 years old, her body develops, she falls in love, and she has sex. What happened to Harry Potter?

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

klg19 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:30:39 -0000

Oh, that is beautifully put! I read the first four books all in one summer, and found them unbelievably frustrating and formulaic. Harry learns something troubling--Harry acts on his knowledge--Harry's actions have dire consequences from which he is saved at the last minute--Harry fesses up to Dumbledore, who says, "Next time, come talk to me,"....and then the whole thing happens exactly the same way in the next book. Not a single iota of character growth in any of the four.

There was no way I was going to put myself through a fifth!

And yet everyone I know, no matter how discerning a reader, loves the damn things. I can't stand them.

And, as a medievalist, I really HATE her fake Latin incantations.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

russd — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:45:54 -0000

Exactly.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Josh Jasper — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:38:07 -0000

Now I'm wanting to write fic that details Tonk's queer past, and her hooking up with Lupin as a beard.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Josh Jasper — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:33:09 -0000

Pierce is clearly writing for teens, while Rowling is writing for pre-teens and young teens. I wouldn't recommend Pierce for pre-teens specifically because of the sexual elements.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

DRW — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:41:47 -0000

I agree with this only up to a point. In JS&MN (a wonderful book), the relationship between Strange and Arabella has some emotional, if not sexually-graphic, complexity. (It's been several years since I last read it, so I can't go into any particular detail, I'm sorry to say.)

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

dragonflyingash — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:02:24 -0000

Exactly. Harry and his friends are roughly the same ages as any number of major characters in several young adult series. I won't go embarrassingly on here about those that I read growing up (seriously I won't), but the glaring differene is that in those books, even at 12 and 13, the girls and boys were dealing with hormones and complex feelings about sex, love and relationships. It was even reflected back towards difficulties they had with their parents and THEIR relationships. Young adult books for the most part speak to young adult angst.

Though Harry, Hermione and Ron are teens for most of the series, they never go THERE. These relationships for the most part stay at simplistic "fairy tale" levels. You ever wander how people fall in love so fast in Disney movies and fairy tales and stay together forever? I remember wondering when I saw Aladdin as a child, how they had only spent a night together and knew they wanted to get married (yes this perplexed me even then). But all's fair in the world of fairy tales and while Harry Potter does have some serious and complex things to say, the depth on relationships stays pretty heavily in fairy tale territory.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

dragonflyingash — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:57:37 -0000

I agree about it being a fair analogy, that was just a preemptive apology for all of the insane Narnia and LOTR fans out there that never want anyone to ever dare compare anything to their beloved series. (Essentially all of my more bougie LOTR and Narnia fans).

I grew up reading the Narnia series and Lord of the Rings and only came to Harry in adulthood , so my view on the series is skewed because of that. Reading Narnia and LOTR as a child I never cared enough for the "greater" details, reading Harry as an adult I never thought that they should necessarily be included. Not sure if that makes sense but it's all to say that I agree that it may have been a stylistic decision on her part. When you write a book that is several hundreds of pages, things are bound to be left out, though I think she did a fantastic job of continuing the mythology from Year 1 on, but yes some more "realistic" aspect about human nature or young adult nature in this instance were casualties.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Alyssa Rosenberg — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:55:32 -0000

And Teddy's just a device, not a person, used to increase the emotional impact of Tonks and Lupin's deaths, because Rowling didn't have the stones to kill someone really central to the plot in Deathly Hallows.

Re: Sex and Harry Potter

Adolphus — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:54:25 -0000

I too loved the Harry Potter series from start to finish but think some people very much miss the mark expecting adult relationships. As so many others have noted before these are books targeted at young adults and older children, about middle school age here in the US. This is a very uncertain time full of anxiety as the once simplistic world of childhood is replaced by the confusing and subtle world of adulthood. Everything about this world only makes sense if viewed through the eyes of pre-adolescents. Teachers are mean because they really don't like you, not because they sincerely care about your future and think you should learn something even if it is against your will. And speaking of learning, there are no provisional, nuanced truths of the historian or scientist, but rote memorization of established and unchallenged facts for seven years and problems are solved with the flick of a wrist and a memorized spell. There are no lessons in logic, or reasoning, or research. No colleges, no universities. You chose a career at Hogwarts, or have one chosen for you, and you live with it for life. This difficult decision is taken out of your hands by strong teachers and a battery of tests. Evil can easily be discerned by a tattoo on the arm and good people are bad, not because good and evil are so difficult define in the adult world and often depends on perspective, but because they are under the imperious curse. No messy democracies in the Wizarding World or inconvenient civil rights, but appointed leaders who either solve problems because they are wise dictators or they don't because they are *gasp* politicians and trials with quickly reached verdicts with miscarriages of justice only when plotted as such by evil and needed by the plot.

For the target age group sexuality is a dark mystery with more questions than answers. Wrestling with surging hormones, social expectations, peer pressure, and the pretty girl next to you in English can make a young boy physically ill. (I can only speak for the boy's perspective, sorry) To go through everything it takes for a person in the target age group to go through in order to work up the gumption to approach a young classmate for a measly dance only for a relationship that will last two months? Are you effing kidding me???? The trials and tribulations at this age are such that only prince or princess charming are worth it or appears worth it when you are 12.

That Rowling knows what it's like to be the age of this age group and wrote to it so effectively is a feature not a bug, and it has made her fantastically successful and wealthy and gotten kids to read. Good for her. That adults expected more from her explains why so many were dissappointed by the final book, but that's on them not Rowling.