The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:40:24 -0000

Says you. I dont believe you. You need more people.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:33 -0000

Caught with my pants down how?

I dont care how many Blacks they have on their board of directors. It has nothing at all to do with their financial responsibility for underwriting slavery. Nothing at all. Im sure you felt very proud of yourself playing "gotcha" but you did nothing to advance your argument.

In how many cases have Blacks with negligible Indian ancestry benefitted from casino rights? Can you provide any actual examples, sources, statistics or should I just take your word for it? Maybe you can step out of abstract unsubstantiated claims and actually post some facts to prove your argument. You havent yet, but there's still hope I suppose.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:36:46 -0000

You've completely ignored the broader implications of this, which doesn't surprise me.

I havent ignored anything. Maybe Im not following you, and maybe you can just clarify what it is Im not understanding or fail to get.

And given your ignorance of Aetna, on what basis are you claiming that Williams, and the two other African Americans on Aetna's board, are tokens?

Strawman. Weak. What is tokenism is your suggestion that Aetna having three Black men in executive positions. They could fire every non-Black employee and replace them with Black employees and it wouldnt do a thing to absolve them of financial responsibility for underwriting slavery. So Im trying to understand how their current CEO is at all relevant.

Maybe cause it isnt. Swing and a miss, Dave. Swing and a miss.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

DaveinHackensack — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:13:28 -0000

I assumed the point was to advocate policies that would have a beneficial impact on most African Americans. A focus on higher education won't do that.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

DaveinHackensack — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:10:26 -0000

I realize after getting caught with your pants down on your Aetna example, you're a little desperate here, but surely you are aware that Indian tribes other than the Cherokee and Seminoles have established casinos, and that, in some cases, the beneficiaries of these casinos have been blacks with negligible Indian ancestry.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

DaveinHackensack — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:07:25 -0000

Juba,

You've completely ignored the broader implications of this, which doesn't surprise me. And given your ignorance of Aetna, on what basis are you claiming that Williams, and the two other African Americans on Aetna's board, are tokens?

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

sv — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:53:38 -0000

bigotry against lefties!!!

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:24:15 -0000

I dont think anyone is looking for a panacea.

Thats not the point at all.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:23:26 -0000

Except for the part where the Cherokee and Seminoles are refusing to recognize valid claims by African-Americans with Native blood to those casino rights. Dude, no disrespect but you gotta start doing a little homework before you make these ideologically-driven assumptions about the facts on the ground. This one in particular was showed glaring indifference to them.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:21:39 -0000

Do you really think that there are a lot of talented African American students who are bereft of educational options because of money?

Do you really think there aren't?

Clearly you do. And clearly I dont agree.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Juba — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:20:18 -0000

1. No I wasnt aware and it makes zero difference to me Dave. Im not sure why you thought that was the Atom Bomb to shut the whole argument down but its kind of funny to me that you did.

2. I agree completely with Josh. Unless you're a great fan of tokenism, it makes zero difference to me that Aetna named a Black CEO. In fact it makes me suspicious that they're trying to win some PR battle preemptively.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

dicooper — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:24:46 -0000

This was fitting to be done on or about Juneteenth.

Both seem to be left-handed attempts at civility.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 09:02:58 -0000

And yet here you are. Participating...

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Sime — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:16:46 -0000

A variety of differing opinions have been presented just in this thread, Spartee. Try it. I'm sure you will be treated respectfully.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Spartee — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:25:08 -0000

Reviewing the comments to this, I remember why I stopped reading articles written by people who typically comment on race. They exist in an intellectually segregated (yes, intentional word choice) zone that they make hostile to other viewpoints.

To even enter the conversation is to lose it, due to the near-fanatical energy of the commentators and the uncompromising, vicious slant given to the terms of the debate. See e.g., above, where white people who don't agree are kiddingly said to be inviting blacks "back to the farm". You cannot discuss race with people who "kid" that their opponents are seeking to reimpose slavery, any more than you could discuss Israel with people who half-jokingly claim their opponents seek to gas Jews. Jokes like that leave the other person too shocked and offended to continue discussing the matter in a removed way. Of course, that is the joke's point--to shut the other person up, not elicit further conversation about their views.

And the result is that we are left with a "debate" on race where sober people smartly withdraw from the conversation, rather than face that sort of treatment. (No thanks, Mr. Holder, but I am busy for the next 50 years, so find someone else to talk to.) It is better to simply ignore the race commentariat. I understand this is frustrating for them, as they avoid discussing this stuff among themselves; their tactics are only satisfying when they leap upon some unsuspecting moderate who wanders by and makes a reasonable observation about their kooky views. Only when talking to moderates does the emotional bullying, harsh rhetoric and playing to their snickering, knowing mob make for a satisfying "debate."

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Josh Hueco — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:29:52 -0000

Dave...To me it doesn't make a difference how many minorities sit on Aetna's board of directors today. It doesn't change Aetna's historical misdeeds. Something else that doesn't change is the excuses that racist whites use for their beliefs and words: "Why can't we call them n****r if they call themselves that too?" "They can't be oppressed, don't Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey count?" and "Why should Aetna pay reparations? They dunn got themselves a cuppla black people on their board!"

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

sv — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:08:38 -0000

PS - non-black non-white naturalized immigrant, hetero-male, under-30, etc. speaking here, if anybody cares.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

sv — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:06:06 -0000

okay. but couldn't we say the same thing about this nation as a whole, that it was built on the backs of african and african-descended slaves whose ancestors continue to face some institutionalized disadvantages today? does that make me, as an American who isn't descended from any of those slaves, liable to those who are?

The perpetrators of slavery owed the victims and the victims' descendants far more than they ever paid; but I suspect we may be past the point where it's possible for those who profited or continue to profit from the suffering induced by slavery to make monetary remuneration or any other legal-type concessions to those who suffered from it or to their descendants, who continue to suffer from it in some ways. I feel like, not only are we all too mixed up and mixed together now, not just racially but culturally and otherwise, that re-drawing these old racial lines which are based on lies to begin with would simply be a significant step backward.

So how can we make things right? I'm sure that it ISN'T by having some people write checks and some people receive them, and saying "now let's never complain about or even speak of slavery again" - and you all know that's what would be said. We've got to find other ways to strive towards that Dr. King vision of a truly merit-based society, of a real wipe-out of the all the old lies and stereotypes that make us fear each other, of the million little built-in biases in our society that are based purely upon racial perception and therefore upon foolishness, including within the black community itself. It's got to be a multi-pronged approach which includes real education reform, as people debated below, gradual eradication of biased policing, and a whole host of other things, but mostly the gradual erasure of this extremely damaging black-white victim-oppressor mentality that seems to linger in our subconscious even though we're all too smart to actually believe it consciously. DaveinHackensack points out that blacks are part of the power structure in this country, downthread; this is true and, while it remains disproportionately uncommon, it is when all of us think of this as being normal - when it ISN'T disproportionately uncommon - that we've made things right.

I feel like I've been long on platitudes (and wind) and short on solutions here. I personally try to just treat people with respect, to work against unfounded biases i find in my own mind (race-based and otherwise) and try to counteract that sort of bias in others when i see it, especially as a citizen, i.e. when i see it in laws or the way government is run (or lack thereof), government officials, etc. I'm not sure what else to do.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

DaveinHackensack — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:03:27 -0000

Longer Josh Hueco:

I have no cogent response to the facts Dave brought up, of which Juba was almost certainly unaware, so I'll just talk out of my hat. That's certainly easier than grappling with the implications of the facts Dave brought up, which is probably why Juba, so far, has not attempted to do so.

Things appear simpler when you view them in black and white: evil corporations with ties to slavery versus black people who are the descendants of slaves. Then when you find out that blacks are disproportionately represented on the board of directors of one of these evil companies, you realize the real world has shades of gray. Whether or not Aetna should pay reparations for whatever connections it had to slavery, I don't know, but I do know that if it does pay reparations, some of that money is going to be coming out of the pockets of black men such as Ron Williams, the CEO (and, no doubt, a shareholder as well) of Aetna.

By the way, the words you put in my mouth miss a point somewhat spectacularly: I'm not the one who thinks that successful African Americans are limited to figures in sports and entertainment such as Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey; on the contrary, I'm the one who just let you and Juba know that the guy who runs Aetna is black. This ain't 1865 anymore. Successful black people are part of the power structure in business, and have been for sometime.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Josh Hueco — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:31:48 -0000

Shorter Dave: You've already got Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey, why are you still complaining?

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Dredd — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:57:14 -0000

Slavery was a terrible attack on fathers; now we still have the mission of fathers to lead families in the larger mission of peace.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Galleymac — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:10:00 -0000

They could forgive my student loans. That would be cool, I think. :-D

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

DaveinHackensack — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:38:26 -0000

"Education, Education, Education. Adequately funded public schools and pre-care programs in poor, black neighborhoods and a free college education for all black students for the next 50 years would be a great place to start."

Education isn't a panacea, and your proposed solution of throwing money at poor black schools has already been tried, with little to show for it. New Jersey, for example, due to a state supreme court decision, has been spending more than the state per-pupil average in poor black districts for years (Look up "Abbott districts"). See also the experiment that was done in Kansas City. Ta-Nehisi's former Blogging Heads sparring partner John McWhorter has talked about that one.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

OGWiseman — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:53:56 -0000

TNC - A lot of people on this thread have pointed out that this doesn't mean much. That's true, but I don't think it gets very deep at the question of why you don't have much to say. The questions are in what sense doesn't it mean much, and more importantly, WHY? It's not just 'doesn't mean much' in the sense of not doing much for poor black people. It 'doesn't mean much' also in the sense of 'not a meaningful English statement. Our public discourse has become so fragmented and unintelligible that it's now possible, after The Civil War and over a century of social struggle, to say in all seriousness and with a straight face: "White People are sorry to Black People for slavery." The only things that are allowed in our public discourse are things that are obvious to the point of banality, and those few things are taken for the whole of reality. That statement of apology is so simplistic and inadequate that it should be a joke, but it's not. What it is, is a constructed narrative. And that, in the end, is why you don't have much to say. This statement isn't directed at you, both you personally and you in the sense of Black People. The statement is directed at White People. It's an apology to Black People directed at White People, so that the average suburban or rural white constituent can feel good about it and then go back to never, ever thinking about the problems of poor blacks or how those people got into their current situation.

BTW, I'm a white male in favor or reparations--But not in the form of cash payments. Education, Education, Education. Adequately funded public schools and pre-care programs in poor, black neighborhoods and a free college education for all black students for the next 50 years would be a great place to start. And there's not a single one of these calculating, insincere assholes in congress who would ever consider bringing that up.

Re: Senate Apologizes For Slavery

Liza — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:18:10 -0000

They would have to apologize for all of our elected representatives in Congress funding their war chests with money from special interests such as drug companies and insurance companies. Then they would have to apologize for allowing the lobbyists to write legislation. After that they would have to apologize for ignoring what the citizens want in health care reform by saying "it would never get passed by Congress" when they are, in fact, the Congress.

An apology like that is just too complex which is probably why they are apologizing for slavery as they apparently see no way they can be blamed for it.

The apology for health care will be around 2150.