The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Remembering The Time

Re: Remembering The Time

lebecka — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:47:25 -0000

Deborah-- you bring the wisdom again. My feelings exactly, but stated better than I ever could.

Re: Remembering The Time

lebecka — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:41:46 -0000

Tragic life, tragic events. But I can't help the way the music makes me feel -- it is my youth, when everything seemed possible, and nothing seemed beyond our reach. At forty, with my life set and moving forward at a fast pace, those feelings are very powerful.

I drove into work this morning belting out "i'll be there" with tears in my eyes.

Re: Remembering The Time

lebecka — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:25:04 -0000

Oooh, I had forgotten Smooth Criminal!! I'm there!

Re: Remembering The Time

lebecka — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:24:16 -0000

Youtube'd all the big Jackson 5 hits again and again last night-- felt teary-eyed and nostalgic for a couple of hours. Who he was and who he turned out to be-- i'm not going there right now. Soundtrack of my youth-- you'd better believe it.

Re: Remembering The Time

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:40:23 -0000

I didn't say there was anything wrong with his being probably the world's greatest pop act. But saying that's what he is - and not any competition for the classics of R&B or soul music, not even the best of Motown, which "poppified" R&B rather relentlessly - seems to have gotten a rise. And if you want to belief there's nothing there regarding the "hierarchy" of white vs. black features in Jackson's creepy plastic surgery, that's your business. I won't comment further, because it's a self-contained, hermetically sealed opinion that ignores the obvious. (Sorry - guess I did comment further. I'll stop.)

Incidentally, check out the number of superlatives in my longer comment. I'm not bitter in the least - not particularly moved one way or the other a this point, because the MJ "tragedy" is such old news and has already been mined by everyone from Oprah to Larry King. Just kind of annoyed that last night I flipped on MSNBC and instead of any discussion at all about health care debates from Ed Schultz or any updates on Iran from Rachel, it was wall-to-wall our "off the wall" pop star. Pretty sad commentary on the culture and what passes for "journalism." Also, the people commenting were generally moronic or banal. I mean, Larry King actually had Kenny Rogers on the phone. And I only coud stand a few minutes - god knows what the obsessives sat through.

Re: Remembering The Time

BreakerBaker — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:17:08 -0000

The only reason to doubt that he had vitiligo is because it fits better into the narrative you clearly (and if I may be so bold, bitterly) accepted a long time ago. But for those of us who have loved ones who have the disorder, it’s pretty clear that he had it too. Just look at images of him from Off the Wall through Bad (by which point, he had clearly undergone depigmentation). He became progressively more blotchy (which is clearly the result of him trying to cover up patches cosmetically) until he was finally white, and when he was white, he was albino white. The only reason that happens is if you undergo treatment to permanently remove all pigmentation from your skin. The only people who do this (remove ALL pigmentation) are people living with vitiligo. Not simply because it’s so aesthetically drastic and permanent, but because it comes with all kinds of complications, not the least of which being the skin’s inability to take prolonged exposure to the sun.

As for the plastic surgery: Let’s put it this way, that was fucking crazy. But, I’m not convinced that had anything to do with chasing some white ideal. Or necessarily wiping out African features. I’d say that’s a plausible hypothesis, but that it’s also a hypothesis which relies on him not having vitiligo to strengthen itself, and, as I said, there’s no question in my mind that he had vitiligo. So, accepting that he had vitiligo. Accepting that he was a neurotic, emotionally troubled 22 year old, who just happened to also be the most famous person in the world, who just happened to have been raised from a very young age to be terribly image conscious, who just happened to be a black man who was constantly having to hide the fact that he was literally LOSING his blackness, then I don’t think it’s much of a leap to say that he may undergo some ill-advised aesthetic procedures. That those procedures can lead to subsequent procedures (corrective and otherwise). Bad plastic surgery happens. And once it happens, and you’re the most famous person in the world, an emotionally stunted guy in your 20s, a black man dealing with vitiligo, it’s not hard to imagine going under the knife again to try to fix it. And again. And again. And again.

Look, I’m not saying the guy wasn’t pathological. I think it’s pretty clear that he was. I think we make the mistake of trying to attach a racial/socio-political diagnosis of that pathology when it’s just as plausible (even more so) that he was a terribly private and emotionally stunted young man who simply lacked the support structure or individual maturity to deal with what can be a very traumatic diagnosis for somebody that isn’t the most famous person in the world. That he lacked the foresight to understand that the ‘cure’ can sometimes be worse than the disease.

At any rate, you’re not required to like Thriller. Or Off The Wall. Or any of it. I think “The Girl is Mine” is pretty terrible, too, but Paul McCartney did some kick ass stuff in his time (on average, he did a lot more awesome stuff than John Lennon, even though Lennon was cooler). I think Eddie Van Halen is great on Beat It. I didn’t participate in the thread last week where TNC was asking where MJ fit in the greater context of black music. To me, he’s clearly always been a pop act, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Re: Remembering The Time

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:10:34 -0000

You're starting to sound like somebody's mother...

Re: Remembering The Time

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:09:25 -0000

Well, I mean, clearly you do. You're still here arguing. People rarely invest time in things they don't care about.

Re: Remembering The Time

Jonathan — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:05:05 -0000

It didn't feel like a formality to me at all - in fact, MJ was one of those idols that felt completely invincible, immortal even. We just never considered that he could die so young, so suddenly. Of course, in retrospect, it makes a lot of sense - surgery, pain killers, personal demons, the weight of the world on your shoulders. Nobody has been that big a star, ever. It must take an enormous toll.

I'll leave it to G*d to parse out the rights and wrongs. Judge not...

Re: Remembering The Time

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:45:27 -0000

Weak. And I'm not arguing. I'm sure there are folks who would be as defensive about my Madonna comment. Ask me if I give a shit.

Re: Remembering The Time

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:35:57 -0000

You clearly have it all figured out. Why bother arguing with the youngins?

Re: Remembering The Time

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:34:16 -0000

You are new here, and I'm happy to welcome you onboard. The cheap attitude, not so much. If you want to speak to people, over the internet, in a manner in which you would not speak to them in person, then you should find another blog. We're not selling that here. Or maybe you do speak to people like this in person. No matter. The prescription is the same.

Re: Remembering The Time

brucds — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:29:19 -0000

Oh come on - I'm not sure I even believe he had vitiligo, but aside from that the cosmetic surgery was some form of pathology - and, yes, the obvious intent was to erase African features. To say "he wasn't chasing some white ideal" is delusional. He was sure as hell chasing something, compulsively, and in the process killed a beautiful black child. The nose alone tells an abhorrent story...

Reading some of this stuff and watching as this ridiculous media hype turns into one of those bloated “Princess Diana’ is Dead!” moments of mass idiocy, I feel forced to state the obvious regarding Jackson's music.

Michael Jackson had NO soul - not in the context of great black music. Certainly not as a singer, not even a little bit. Great dance moves, great choreography, incredibly catchy hooks, remarkably facile performer, superb production, definitely the top of the bubble-gum pops. But in the annals of African-American music, he couldn’t touch the classic singers. Not even close. The music itself was essentially synthetic from day one (and not even at the level of the best of the Motown “hit factory” era) and stayed rather sadly puerile up until the end (which I’m afraid was well before 6/25/09.) Nothing terribly wrong with that – “King of Pop”, etc. etc. Bring in Eddie Van Halen and The Saccharine Beatle - whatever! Go for it, Q! But the adulation (I just turned on cable news briefly and they’re still obsessing) has reached the level of insult to any sense of proportion or sanity. I’ll end with the observation that Jackson’s career and brilliance – which was way heavy on artifice, maybe even exclusively pop artifice – is also a testament, along with Madonna’s, to the malign influence of MTV on American music.

Re: Remembering The Time

Deborah — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:24:38 -0000

I'll defend him on the facts.

His interest in children was weird and unnatural, and the whole Wonderland thing was freaky and sad. I would not have let my kids go on unsupervised sleepovers. And I haven't listened to Jackson in ages precisely because the kids thing is weird and wrong. The idea that he has and is raising children worries me, and naming all of them after himself is another "whoa, you are not normal, and the childhood thing is off-the-charts freaky" moment.

But on molestation he was cleared. Maybe he got away with it. Maybe he just had no idea how to do normal, and people saw that and saw money. Who the hell lets their kid have an unsupervised sleepover in the bed of an adult man? Kind of suggests they were looking to be able to sue. When he and Lisa Marie Presley married someone said "Duh, two people who never had a normal childhood, who grew up in the laser glare of the media, they have a lot in common."

So maybe he was a child molester who got away with it because the people who accused him weren't that believable, and he had money. Or maybe he was an awful, tragic man whose obsession with childhood innocence, enabled by almost unlimited money and warped by his having no childhood himself, led to him acting in ways that are freakish to normal people, that he didn't quite get because he had never been normal. I don't know which it is. It's just very sad.

Re: Remembering The Time

BreakerBaker — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:43:44 -0000

I wouldn't defend his various plastic surgeries (which you may or may not include under your "race-change" umbrella), but the pigmentation thing really wasn't his fault. He did have vitiligo, which causes large patches of a person's skin to lose all pigmentation. It's progressive, and by the time the condition sort of plateaus, you have people with large patches of visible white (like Michael Jackson white) skin all over their bodies. The reason he wore the glove was because it was already visible on that hand.

Vitiligo is chronic, and there is no cure. Until very recently, there were no treatments to reverse the progress of the condition and bring pigment back to the skin. For years, the only real treatment was pharmaceutical and it removed all of the pigment from a person's skin and turns them essentially albino, which is what he did. He wasn't chasing some white ideal. He simply couldn't bare looking at himself. I imagine living with vitiligo is pretty difficult no matter what, but for a black man, who is the biggest star in the world...

http://www.bagofnothing.com/2007/12/black-tv-anchor-turning-white/

Re: Remembering The Time

bekrul — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:51:06 -0000

to clarify my thoughts, i honestly dont know if mj was guilty. during the trial the coverage sounded pretty damning, and i thought he was guilty, which made me sad because as a musician, i see him as one of the geniuses of our generation. but given his acquittal (which, even given his richness, is no sure thing, i.e. phil spector didnt get off), it seems grossly unfair to presume that he is guilty. none of us can know with certainty what really happened. peace.

Re: Remembering The Time

Steve Hall — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:36:32 -0000

All due respect: I'm so very tired of MSM reps like yourself tagging the narrative as "MJ's work declined in quality in the later years". You tell me "Butterflies", "Break of Dawn", and "Cry" were not exceptional tracks.

They were. He had some excellent work even as late as his final album. I'm so sick of everyone blotting out his achievements post-Thriller. The dude deserves his due. If the MSM hadn't fuzzed out the power of that last album with unfair reviews, we might still have Mike with us today.

Were they as good as "Thriller"? Of course not. Were they heads-and-shoulders above his competition? God yes. Tell it like it is not like it ought to be to fit the accepted narrative of the man-child-genius-who-lost-his-mind. The dude brought the quality all his life and all he got was character assassination. Good God.

Re: Remembering The Time

DaveinHackensack — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:43:39 -0000

I wouldn't be so sure. Whatever settlements he had the parents of those kids sign probably didn't include any escape hatch based on Michael's death. If they want the money to keep coming from whatever administrator handles the disbursements, they're going to have keep their mouths shut. Just my opinion.

Re: Remembering The Time

radiofreerome — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:39:58 -0000

Sexuality is a powerful force in human nature. Michael never seemed to be consciously aware of his sexuality but always the victim of his sexuality's unconscious expression.

The boy who made so many lonely people dream of loving someone and being loved never knew love.

Re: Remembering The Time

Kylopod — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:34:58 -0000

I love most of his music between the late '70s and late '80s. And while I always was fatigued by the media's obsession with his bizarre life, I was a bit shocked to hear that he died. I don't have much respect for him as a person (I am still unsure whether he actually raped any kids, though what he's known to have done was pretty bad), but I do respect him as an artist. Now that he's dead, it is likely that a lot more will be uncovered about him.

Re: Remembering The Time

DaveinHackensack — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:32:16 -0000

Interesting post on Michael, by some fellow named Dennis Dale, "Multitude Killed the Video Star". A couple of excerpts:

We played the grooves off of that record. My girlfriend had Michael Jackson's Off The Wall on vinyl. For a post-adolescent white trash burnout, steeped in rock and leavened in punk and new wave, listening to something so mainstream felt downright subversive. But it would have taken a deliberate act of cultural bigotry to dismiss that album. Not that I pretend to be free of such bias; selective cultural inhibition is always operative in each of us, not only in determining what we won't allow, but what which we force upon, ourselves.

[...]

Michael Jackson was not the first superstar, but he may be the first to publicly renounce personhood itself in favor of renown. Michael Jackson didn't lose his individuality, he discarded it as a hindrance to celebrity. What was always unnerving about him was the absence behind the mystique. He did not start out as a "personality", real or fabricated; there was never anything there to begin with beyond the remarkable talent. Through the years I've become convinced that the absence of personality, and eventually the grotesquerie that was offered in its place, amplified that talent. We never got to know him, even as we watched him grow up. It wasn't just that he was private--lots of celebrities are "private"--it's that he deliberately crafted a persona without personhood. He cobbled together a few cliches he found romantic--the eternal child as a result of being robbed of childhood, the lonely genius, the besieged eccentric--all bathetic in their self-pitying grandiosity. Michael Jackson made himself into a comic caricature of egomania.

He refused even to accept the limits of nature, treating his physical body as if it were as malleable as his public persona. Had he been less delusional, and perhaps more ably befriended by those around him, he might have been made to see that neither of these things were very much within his control. Michael Jackson, in his repeated disfigurement under the knife, took on the vanity of the nation. In this, his most ridiculed aspect, that which is considered most "abnormal" about him, he is in fact most like us. He was, if anything, a pioneer in the realm of plastic surgery. When he started out on his gruesome way, the practice was far less common than it is now. Michael took on our vanity the way Christ takes on our sins.

Read the rest and see what you think.

Re: Remembering The Time

Bluestatewatchdog — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:27:15 -0000

Thanks bekrul...innocent until proven guilty has all-but disappeared in this country. I wouldn't excuse his alleged misdeeds as I wouldn't excuse them from some person with no celebrity. Child abuse is a personal and sensitive topic for me in ways you cannot imagine, but allegations of such crimes are not always made because the actual crime was committed. I am not making any final judgment on his guilt or innocence, I'm just making an appeal to respect our infinitely flawed judicial system because we have all implicitly accepted it as the final arbiter of these kinds of matters.

Re: Remembering The Time

hrf — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:07:35 -0000

Michael Jackson's death affected me much more than I expected today. I was never a huge fan of his music and his personal eccentricities loomed larger than his talent in my mind. I still don't know what to think about the alleged child abuse - there's enough doubt to make me wary of condemning him, but I can't exactly defend him either. I was a child in the '80's, but his music and moves permeated my limited perception of pop culture. I remember overhearing my older sister, my parents, and some of their friends discussing his recent burns from the Pepsi Cola commercial. I had never heard of him before and so I asked my parents who he was. I believe they said, "He's a pop star," and that's what then defined the term for me. I'll leave it to history to sort out the details of his life, but for me, I feel as if a part of my youth died.

Re: Remembering The Time

Hicks — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:19:11 -0000

Lord, I'm watching contemporaries pass on, and feeling fortunate to see this day. I watched MTV from Video Killed the Radio Star. Among all the crap that was served up, there were some real inventive videos. Golden Earring "Twilight Zone" comes to mind. And I've downed a beer or six with friends late at night talking trash with Headbangers Ball in the background. But as I remember it, MTV was giving absolutely no love to black artists until Billie Jean came along. The video was so useful of the medium, showcasing Michael Jackson's eerie talent. MTV had no feasible way to reject it as not being attractive to their core audience. I admired MJ for that...he MADE them acknowledge him.

My memory's linear time clock may be off but that's how I remember it.

Jesus, I watched that 10 year old child, just 2 years my junior, belt out "Who's Loving You" like he was pussy whipped. Where'd that come from? It seemed as if entertainment was all he was made of. Can you imagine what a conversation with him would be like? Every rare instance that he was interviewed just talking (before he lost his mind), there was no there there.

As for his predatory ways, as a survivor of just such behavior, that sorely disappointed me about him. Children with parents as opportunistic as his own. It would seem he would want to protect them instead of prey upon them.

Yet, I can still do the choreography from Thriller.

Re: Remembering The Time

Joe E Rosewater — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:18:13 -0000

re: "the only reason he wasn't "convicted in a court of law" was because he paid people off. Innocent men don't do that, especially not when accused of being a kiddy rapist."

A plausible argument, perhaps. But let me flip this on you: Would the father of a kid who was truly molested take the money rather than continue the trial of a man he knows to be guilty? If they weren't after Michael's millions to begin with, wouldn't they rather see justice carried out? Could a respectable father really put a price tag on his victimized son's dignity?

In the 2005 trial, evidence and testimony from the first trial were recycled- and MJ was acquitted. And nobody was paid off there.

Unless an R Kelly-like video surfaces, we have nothing but shades of gray, and- I should hope- the principle that people are not guilty until proven otherwise.