The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

erichwwk — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:20:41 -0000

Yup. Kupchn lost me when he wrote

"As countries that practice authoritarian capitalism rise in power and
influence, the democracies of the West need to continue to serve as the
anchor of liberal values and progressive change"

as if the US was not the poster child for authoritarian capitalism.

Perhaps should have stopped when he implied the "country" supplying leadership
(the US) mattered more than the substance. Could we please just "remember our humanity and forget all the rest"?

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

bannedforselfcensorship — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:35:40 -0000

So, we could buy Huawei without any complaints from Chinese government?

I doubt it.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

bannedforselfcensorship — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:29:18 -0000

Don't you know profit margins for many Chinese exports are ridiculously low in many cases?

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

bannedforselfcensorship — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:25:53 -0000

and if any small Chinese owned factory had to be held to the same standard a Taiwanese factory has to be at, then they would all be out of business too.

You know its bad when you visit a factory and the owner has to spend more time drinking with Chinese customs officials than his customers. (Good for my liver though.)

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

bannedforselfcensorship — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:23:09 -0000

Yeah, when US companies go to China, they don't need to hire a lobbyist.

Instead they need to find a joint-investment partner, preferably a state-run enterprise who will slowly steal their technology and then compete with the foreign firm.

Yes, now its slightly better, but to claim that western companies can just plop down in China wherever they like is not true. Every book about doing business in China talks about guanxi...I guess that's all garbage and China's government is a neutral arbiter that's consider foreign and domestic companies as equals. LOL.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

A_Lee — Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:58:32 -0000

I can do much better than that. I have personal friends from the former East Germany and Soviet Union. Though hardly authoritative, the overall story they tell is of nationalism, not democratic rebellion.

Perestroika sounded the death knell of the Soviet Union because nationalists in Poland, East Germany, Ukraine, Latvia, and elsewhere seized on the opportunity to gain independence from Moscow. Within Russia itself, support for the Soviet Union remained high. You have to remember just how deeply WWII is embedded in the Russian psyche. Stalin, despite his atrocities, was the savior of Russia from the German Wehrmacht.

Souls? It's quite arrogant to believe that everyone thinks like an American, eh? Ethnic nationalism, patriotism, religious solidarity, hero worship ... these things have a much more ancient claim to the soul. Before life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness there was God, king and country.

As to Star Wars and Reagan, you just need to read. These things are public record. At the Reykjavík summit, both Reagan and Gorbachev took SDI quite seriously, despite the fact that most American scientists doubted it could work.

I am quite aware of the spiritual self, but you need to be aware that the modern American conception of individual freedom is a mix of 18th century Enlightenment, 19th century Freud, and 20th century pop culture. It is hardly universal. The average Russian will vote this year for Vladimir Putin.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

WarrenMetzler — Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:28:14 -0000

A, I have to assume you never read anything about life in the USSR for the average person, but have limited your reading to Western intellectuals and government advisors. Because you are oblivious to how much the mind-sets of a country's citizens have to do with what government exists. And if the public gives up a supporting view, the government soon collapses. Which is exactly why the Shah of Iran left town (when he had the 5th most powerful military in the country, and one of the most draconian secret services in the world).

It is the change in mind-set of the average Russian beginning decades prior to 1990, that made the USSR incapable of being governed, eventually bringing in a man like Gorbachev in who attempted to modify the system, failing to recognize (from years of getting stupid believing communism ever had a chance) that the people had souls, which had desires for freedom, which were incompatible with any form of communism / socialism.

North Korea remains a sick dictatorship because too few a percentage of the population personally requires freedom, not at all because of a Stalinist economy.

And if Gorbachev thought that Star Wars was a reality, he and his advisors were really stupid and the KGB was incompetent. Because any person with a reasonable amount of scientific training knew it was a never ever going to work delusion. And therefore only followed to fit Reagan's small ignorant mind, the dreams of phenomenal riches in the people who ran our military industrial companies.

I am repeatedly amazed that intelligent people like yourself, and you and your likeminded people are in the vast majority, continue to be able to ignore that there is a spiritual component to each human, and that all of each humans motivations arise from their spiritual part. No world event ever occurred because of some change in oil prices, or anything other physical action. All such phenomena are manifestations of internal changes that occur in human's spirits, leading to new approaches to life being taken; never precipitating causes.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

bannedforselfcensorship — Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:16:34 -0000

I would not be so sure China escaped 2008 unscathed.

Industrial production slowing, exports slowing, wages going up again, and inflation possibly untamed, all with housing dropping.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

송예옥 — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 23:22:21 -0000

http://youtu.be/zXKV78VERio

"I have already com."

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

fancylouie — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 22:12:35 -0000

to rebuild our stock of power, we have to first bridge the huge chasm in outlooks... my outlook is not the same as ron paul's, but i thinkthe two of us have the same interest....

dialogue on an honest level is the only way and in today's blogcentric way, a meeting of the minds seems very difficult and, from my experience - impossible....

ya know, james fallows could give we readers a gift - he could allow a little comment to his postings...

will james fallows allow comment associated with his posts? in 2012? will he? will he be cool like that? in 2012?

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

A_Lee — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:58:03 -0000

Well, certainly the old Left would want you to believe that. They were suicidally-depressed at the prospect that the moron Reagan could watch the Soviet Union and their Communist dream collapse during his terms in office. If you have any doubt on where Democrat sympathies lay, just read any Ted Kennedy foreign-policy speech written in 1980-1984.

As to the actual causes of Soviet collapse, my understanding is that the Soviets basically exhausted themselves trying to keep pace with US military spending since 1950. Their resources were drained trying to do much at once. Keeping the Warsaw Pact countries under control, fighting in Korea, Vietnam, later Afghanistan, keeping up with the US in ICBMs, propping up Arab states against Israel, it was just too much. They were spending an estimated 25% of GDP on defense. The US, which had a much larger economy, could match them without strain - and have plenty left to keep growing.

Why collapse in the 1980s? A few reasons. Oil prices fell, depriving the Soviet Union of their only real source of foreign exchange currency. Afghanistan was a mess. And Reagan had announced Star Wars, and a massive, near-doubling, increase in military spending. The Soviets, who could barely keep up with US spending before, were now hopelessly outmatched. So, they tried something new. Perestroika. And the rest is history.

So no, collapse was not inevitable. If you have nukes and a firm grip on the population, collapse is never inevitable. Just ask the North Koreans. The Soviets could have limped on, if they stayed with their old Stalinist economy. But Star Wars would have taken away the nuclear umbrella, and left them naked - that's why it scared them so much. And to anyone who says Star Wars was an idiotic pipe dream, consider this: Gorbachev offered Reagan complete nuclear disarmament, zero-zero, if Reagan would give up Star Wars. Reagan refused, and Gorbachev had no alternative but to modernize the Soviet economy if he wanted to compete.

So military spending had everything to do with their collapse.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Josh Jasper — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:43:07 -0000

Also, end the stupid Cuban Embargo

No candidate who wants to get nominated, or carry in Florida in a general election will do that. If a Presidential candidate supports that, they loose the state. What you need to do is blunt the stranglehold the Cuban American community has in Florida.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

WarrenMetzler — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:19:01 -0000

Steve makes his living having foreign affairs exist, so I can see that he would be unwilling to have a view that destroys his living. But I suggest, once again, that there is nothing the US can do to change the behavior of a people in another country. So any foreign policy, other than peaceful co-existence (treating each other with civil interactions), is doomed to fail.

Just as no US government has ever been able to change the collective mindsets of its citizens on any issue. Remember how long ago civil rights legislations were enacted, but it took decades of individuals each personally realizing how self defeating racism and bias were for the everyday mindsets to change to where they are today. And even that legislation was passed close to 200 years after creating a Declaration of Independence, which explicitly stated such rights exist. It is time we give up having a foreign policy, except a simple one: when you implement all the human rights possessed by every human we treat you as a friend; when you refuse to act in that manner, we treat you with civility, but you know you are not our friend. Enough of this spectrum from lacking in common sense left to lacking in common sense right, and lets finally get on with doing what works. And just to focus on one issue, the rising economies of the BRIC's. Every person has the capacity to live as she wishes: what personality to have, what work to do, how to relate to others, and what spiritual views to possess. It is sheer intellectual folly to assume that any government can determine how its citizens do. Governments can interfere with their citizens in any number of ways, almost all detrimental. But no government in the world can get its citizens to perform at a higher level than each decides to do. There is, history has shown, a consciousness in the people who choose to live in the US, that makes them on the average more productive, skilled, creative and contributing than the consciousness of the average of the citizens of any other country in the world. But to do so, in the 21st century requires, as in the past, that we operate in a superior manner. Since the citizens of the rest of the world can easily handle jobs in any field, where a boss tells an employee what to do, and never gives each such employee any real freedom to act in his work tasks, we need to give up the insanity, promoted by many a unionization supporter, that such jobs are ever again going to be available in the US. We can still manufacture in an economically viable manner, but only when such companies are structured in a manner that gives each worker significant freedom to do his work tasks as he is inwardly lead to do. Get the average American to realize this, and we won't ever need a single government import or export control to once again be the most vibrant economy in the world.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

WarrenMetzler — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:51:45 -0000

Lovely link to Morse. The host of that news program demonstrates exquisitely how uninformed and lacking in common sense educated people who sell their souls for a seat with the rich and famous can become. On the other sense, the public creating foreign policy doesn't make sense to me. How would that occur? Through polling? Which is a totally unreliable concept.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

WarrenMetzler — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:49:00 -0000

I am just curious A_Lee, have you read a lot on the actual conditions in the USSR? I haven't read a lot, but it is clear that communism decapitated itself there. Weapons spending had little to nothing to do with its collapse.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Tsvi Mikael Golan — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 05:09:57 -0000

He has is wrong , the Turkey is a colonial power occupying 2 countries and spreading Islamist power, Turkey occupy s Kurdistan and half of Cyprus murdered millions Armenians because they we not Muslims. They are a threat to world peace and the USA should never cooperate with them. The USAs problem has always been a short term instead of long term ally structure , Turkey is not the type of ally the USA should have

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

송예옥 — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 00:01:29 -0000

http://youtu.be/zXKV78VERio

I have already com.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

송예옥 — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:59:24 -0000

http://youtu.be/zXKV78VERio

I have already com.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

ForrestGumpsOfAmerica — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:37:21 -0000

>Take any consumer product. A T-shirt, a pair of shoes, whatever. $10
>cost, 30% labor content. Take it from a $1 an hour regime, and bring
>it back onshore. Labor cost jumps to a minimum of $15 (with all the
>payroll taxes and such). That $3 in labor cost jumps to $45, and the
>total cost of the goods goes to $52.
>I submit that there are VERY FEW Americans willing to pay 5 times as much to >bring manufacturing onshore.
>They vote with their wallets every day of the week, and we see the voting results >every day.

Under my proposal of Manufacturing and Trade Protectionism or even Trade Isolationism, if you will, with regards to buying goods there will be no voting, there will be no choice - Chinese goods and other foreign made cheap labor goods will be either not allowed into USA at all or taxed "to death" (so they will be much more expansive than American made goods) .
Americans (if they are American Patriots) will agree to that also, because the money will stay circulating inside the country, providing 99% of Americans with employment as source of income.

>BTW, jobs will only flow to the lowest cost nation that knows how to do it.
Only if such goods could be sold via export. We could kill those jobs there by not buying their goods (by the means discussed above).

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Jasoturner — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:05:26 -0000

I wonder if we are conflating "smarts", in the common sense, let's keep the world working way, with cleverness. As in the clever kid at school who has no moral core and is ultimately untrustworthy. Some of the wealthy swells I've met in my life are clever indeed, but I would not characterize them as particularly smart. Or educated.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Ride the Rock Island Line — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 23:53:57 -0000

If Iran tries to close the Straits of Hormuz it will be the speculators who save the US in the short run with full tankers of oil sitting around the world.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Ari BenDavid — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 23:15:23 -0000

The playing field is tilted heavily toward China. Many US companies lose out for 2-3% differences in costs, often against a dumping China. This does not make sense for the US. Why lose domestic employment and infrastructure for 3%? In no way is this good for the US economy or is the defense against it "protectionism."

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Ari BenDavid — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 22:57:07 -0000

And speculation in commodities is causing inflation of their worth over what their use would be. They are also where savings goes in a world of low interest. It is very sad. In an earlier day gambling was considered a vice. It is unproductive. Buying stocks can be a gamble, but has an ultimately productive purpose. Today, we don't invest in companies making products but in financial "products" at the cost of loans and investment in companies. Tragic.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

Ari BenDavid — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 22:38:48 -0000

Calvin Trillin observed that the troubles on Wall Street started when smart people started working there. The same is true in the government. Sometimes the "best and brightest" are not the best for the country.

Re: Rebuilding America's Stock of Power - Steve Clemons - International - The Atlantic

tstev — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:20:17 -0000

The funding for progressive changes have always been through amortization of debt and taxes and not through donations from oligarchy. The oligarchy is only interested in maintaining the power of their cash.