The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

R.oB. — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:03:15 -0000

Look I understand that atheists like me are not going to convince the world that it is wrong. But can we at least come together and acknowledge our differences without false equivalences?

You believe your beliefs are superior and right and everyone else is wrong. How is that different and not a false equivalency?

This is what cracks me up about objectivism. There is very little that can be said beyond what we can perceive in the world to claim any hold on objectivity. You say the word is wrong. That's an affirmative statement to a fact. Facts can be objectively proven. So go ahead and prove, say, that there is no God. It should be interesting to say the least.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

R.oB. — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:56:53 -0000

Ok, now I know Adam Serwer is the author. I catch on slow. But I do catch on! Good posts Adam! :-)

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

R.oB. — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:53:17 -0000

The complaint from scientists is that in the words of the author, substitutes superstition for scientific inquiry. That is an attack on how ID operates not what ID is or isn't.

The poor taste lies in the fact that if someone of faith believes in ID they are superstitious. Superstition has a negative connotation. It's pejorative and condescending.

Perhaps I'm watching too much Bill Mayer! :-)

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:58:47 -0000

Acromion, I don't think asking people to go post elsewhere is your perogative. Since I don't always agree with you, should I tell you to go post on Michelle Bachman's website?

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

The Ninja Zombie — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:28:52 -0000

Acromion,

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this blog was devoted exclusively to cheerleading and preaching to the choir. I thought it was for actual discussions and differing ideas.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Acromion — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:49:27 -0000

Ninja Zombie,

Please go post on digg - I think you will fit in better there.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:58:24 -0000

Yeah, I don't want _anyone_ to tell me about their sex life. Yuck.

However, i think part of the problem is that gay people (as a group) tend to be defined _only_ through their sex lives. That's why when it's our brother or our co-worker who's gay, we get past the yuck sex part very quickly-- we know those people are more than just the sex they have.

It would be great if we could move this debate beyond sexual preferences, but I can't see quite how. Even when we bring in families, kids, health care, etc., the main thing does boil down to who someone wants to have sex with.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:49:29 -0000

Exactly.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:48:01 -0000

thanks for the info on the march, MAJeff.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

The Ninja Zombie — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:34:44 -0000

Darkrose, if stereotyping people who think differently from you makes you feel good, enjoy. But if you actually want to change views, it might help to understand the views you are changing.

The fact is, most sex is disgusting. Sharing bodily fluids, touching other people, yuck! The only exception is sex we want to participate in -- our brain has a mental override for that. Remember how you felt when you heard about sex at age 7? "You stick your what into where? Eeeewww!" That's how straight people feel about gay sex. That's how most people feel about sex they don't want to have.

You can't stop people from thinking that, just as you can't convince me that shrimp are not disgusting sea maggots. All you can do is stop people from making the leap from "eeewww, gross" to "the people doing that are bad."

Or you can just stereotype them and assume they want to have gay sex, but only being the top.

Incidentally, very few straight couples have anal sex.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

permazorch — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:01:07 -0000

A little off-topic, a little more over-the-top.

"But the most prevalent theory is that Obama, surrounded by Clinton White House alumni with painful memories, doesn’t want to risk gay issues upending his presidency, as they did his predecessor’s in 1993."

What's incredibly painful to me is the memory of Clinton utterly folding. I cannot politely describe my anger and disappointment. Obama is the President. He's the President! Don't be like Clinton, Mr. President! Be President!

When Clinton pulled "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" out of his ass, that was when I knew we had a loser for a President. Sure, his was not nearly as embarrassing (damaging, disgusting) a regime as #43 gave us, but, like my pal Sylvain says, 'that's comparing hot, wet dog feces with day-old, partially dry dog feces.' If I have to choose one kind to step in, well, I'll go with day-old Clinton rather than steaming hot, wet and fresh W.

Ultimately, I'd prefer not to step in dog mess.

I'm sorry. I'm seething. You are the President, and I just want you to do what you know in your heart is right, and to stick to your guns. This is for you, Barack Obama, because I hope you're a hell of a lot better than the last two.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Darkrose — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:26:30 -0000

Add to that the fact that gay sex is highly unhygienic and that most straight couples do not perform that act.Huh? Which act are you referring to, first of all--oral sex, which last I checked was something both genders can do? Or anal sex--which, again, is something straight couples do all the time, from both sides (try Googling "bend over boyfriend".) There's also a misconception that all gay men have anal sex all the time, as if there were no other sexual activities available.

Lesbians are seen as cute and non-threatening because it's easy for the hetboys to imagine themselves in there--all we need is a dick, right? With the gay boys, though, all of a sudden, there's a chance that the hetboy's not automatically going to be the top, and OMGSKEERY!

I'm very interested to see how this plays out as yaoi and slash become increasingly mainstreamed, and straight girls start demanding more gratuitous boy sex in their media.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Elise — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:39:33 -0000

Acromion -

Glad we agree. I like those lyrics.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

The Ninja Zombie — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:00:17 -0000

This frustrates me a lot. Gay men are seen as disgusting aberrations of nature. Lesbians are seen as cute and non-threatening.

Yes, and the reason why is very simple.

The female form is seen as an ideal of beauty. Scantily clad women grace the pages of both men's and women's magazines, for example. The lesbian sex act is also performed by most straight couples. This removes most of that visceral "ewwww" reaction.

The male form is not universally beautiful. Add to that the fact that gay sex is highly unhygienic and that most straight couples do not perform that act. Net result: "Ewwww, yuck."

(Note: I suspect it isn't as unhygienic as most people think, but I really don't want more information on it.)

Further evidence for this hypothesis? In cultures where the male form was a beauty ideal and modern hygiene had not taken hold (e.g., ancient Greece), gay sex was accepted.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Acromion — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:00:13 -0000

I found that most guys, once their barriers are removed, really enjoy being objectified.

But anyway, I just love it when a straight guy goes, "Hey I'm OK with whatever you do behind closed doors, just don't hit on me."

I always laugh to myself then because usually the dude saying it is like the last person on earth I'd ever hit on!

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Acromion — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:49:56 -0000

No need to second guess yourself, Elise. I just didn't think I could describe lesbian sexuality coming from my experience, but you really made a lot of sense.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Acromion — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:42:35 -0000

Elise -

I agree with everything you said. I think Madonna says it best in "What it feels like for a girl."

Girls can wear jeans

And cut their hair short

Wear shirts and boots

cause its ok to be a boy

But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading

cause you think that being a girl is degrading

But secretly youd love to know what its like

Wouldnt you

What it feels like for a girl

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

MAJeff — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:36:07 -0000

I should probably add that there is planning going on for a march on Washington in October.

http://nationalequalitymarch.com/

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Galleymac — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:32:05 -0000

It's also worth noting that the "cute and non-threatening" image often only extends to women who are conventionally feminine and attractive-- if you're butch or old, or fat, or god forbid, all three, then the "awws" disappear pretty quickly and get replaced with some serious anger and disgust

And violence.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

LonBecker — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:15:41 -0000

This bugged me when I saw Coates original post and again with this one, but I have been having a hard time putting my finger on what bugged me. But I think it is this, these analysis misdescribe what the Rich quote actually says. But what the Rich quote actually says is hard to disentangle in a way that is not at least as racist as the view being attributed to him.

The quote clearly does not say that the black voter is the biggest obstacle to LGBT rights since it says that preachers are the biggest obstacle. Or more accurately that it could be a fear of preachers.

But that leaves as curious why gay advocates would single out black preachers. It is true that Harry Jackson (I think that is his name) has been made the face of the anti movement in DC. But most of the ministers leading the fight are not black.

And the idea that Obama has anything to fear personally from black voters voting against him is accurately demolished in Serwer's discussion above. Even if Obama was afraid that black votes would defeat any national referendum on gay marriage (a silly idea given the numbers) he couldn't really believe that black voters would turn on him over the issue, or that even if they did that would be the factor that dooms him in future elections (his and congressional ones).

Instead the quote kind of makes sense mostly if one takes it as something like "Obama is black so naturally he cares what black preachers say" But it is hard to understand that without an implicit "you know how black people are" to it.

It is quite plausible that Obama is afraid of moving to quickly on gay rights issues because of a voter backlash. It is implausible that he expects to come from black voters. And for all of the reasons Serwer gives above, it is unsupported to suggest Obama has a specific fear of black preachers.

That said, the Rich quote does clearly focus on black preachers primarily as representatives of the preacher class rather than as representatives of black civil rights groups. But maybe with all of the other people who are blaming blacks generally, the Rich quote comes too close not to be lumped in.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

MAJeff — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:01:48 -0000

I'm sorry, I have to respond, esp to this:

I am getting a bit tired of the whining about how Obama is not waving his magic wand to end DADT and DOMA. The gay community on this issue seems to want Obama to do the work and take the political risks--why aren't you out there protesting in the streets?

There have been protests, in case you missed the DNC fundraiser last week. Gay folks have been organizing, in case you missed the legislative sessions in NH, VT, ME, NY, OR, WI, NV, IL this year, all of which passed (or came damn close to passing) some kinds of relationship protections for same-sex couples this year. Have you seen knightsout.org? A new organization of gay West Point alum coming out and working to challenge the ban.

President Obama, and the Democratic leadership more generally, made a campaign issue of working to get rid of those policies. According to the WaPo today, they've made a collective decision to take no action on these issues for the foreseeable future (thanks, Rahm).

But we're whining.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Elise — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:55:09 -0000

Had to add that's not to say that either of you, Acromion and Bruins2Lakers, were trying to claim that lesbians have it easy, just that my hackles get up and I have to say something when it looks like the conversation might be moving in that direction.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

Elise — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:51:40 -0000

"This frustrates me a lot. Gay men are seen as disgusting aberrations of nature. Lesbians are seen as cute and non-threatening."

I agree, but this lesbian can't help but note that there's something to be said for having your sexuality taken seriously, even if it's with serious hostility. I don't envy gay men the violence and hysterical wounded masculinity they have deal with every day from straight men, but I do envy your sexual agency being taken seriously, instead of being reduced to a porny joke and a fetish for straight men to appropriate as they see fit.

Yes, it certainly doesn't prompt the same level of violent hatred that male effeminancy does. As Quentin Crisp said, there's no crime like being a woman. But my hackles get raised every time someone seems to be moving towards a false "gay men have a hard time, lesbians have it easy" dichotomy, as though it's just peachy to be alternately reduced to sex dolls in a male fantasy and completely marginalized and invisible, even within the so-called gay and lesbian community.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:51:33 -0000

I think this is because straight men are afraid that gay men will "look" at them, perhaps with lust in their heart. Sorry, straight guys, no sympathy for you. When guys on the street stop staring and wolf-whistling at me and my girls, I'll start to feel bad for you. Until then, payback is a bitch.

Re: Race, Superstition, and Marriage Equality

lebecka — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:47:27 -0000

Actually, as a strong gay rights and gay marriage supporter, I am getting a bit tired of the whining about how Obama is not waving his magic wand to end DADT and DOMA.

The gay community on this issue seems to want Obama to do the work and take the political risks-- why aren't you out there protesting in the streets? I'll join you, but I'm not gonna organize protests for you. Where are the sit-ins at the Justice of the Peace or City Hall demanding to be married? I'll go to support you, but i can't get married for you. Where are the letter writing campaigns, the email campaigns? Haven't you heard of advertising what you want?

i will join the fight for marriage equality, but I won't fight this battle for you. lead the way-- I am behind you 100%.