The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Publius tackles Wilentz

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Trevor J — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:32:38 -0000

Just wanted to point out that Juan Williams was really moved by Michelle Obama's speech last night. And rightly so. So much so, it really took the wind out of Kristol and Co's sails. It took throwing it to Chris Wallace on the floor to get their hate machine crack(er?)ing again.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Martin — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:23:04 -0000

I think it's pretty simple, really.

If you were born in 1958 or before, you were born before the Civil Rights Act. Not only did you have a leg up on Obama by a few years, you were born with a legal advantage. And with both of those, Obama whipped your ass to the finish line - bigtime.

If you assume that people are fundamentally equal, it might be hard to accept that someone who started out as by-definition unequal did you better. "I'm smart, I worked hard, why is that guy rich and on the way to the White House when he started out later and less advantaged than me? He must have cheated in some way."

They're searching for what made Obama SO much more successful, and they can't accept that he simply might be that much smarter, more disciplined, etc. It's much easier to argue that he's too ambitious, that it's a media conspiracy, that liberal quotas and affirmative action gave him unfair advantages. Unfortunately, until a few generations die out, a black president will always be suggestive of blacks getting opportunities that whites are denied (which could be argued if we stopped seeing white candidates) rather than the simple truth that now anyone - black or white - can go to the top.

I would describe the people that have the hardest time accepting this change to the world as... conservative. Go figure.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

JT (Chicago) — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:18:55 -0000

Shine, again, your points are well taken but I have to point out that the life expectancy in the US is now 78 and so it's not surprsiing that the average age of MSM viewers/readers is over 50.

You have to remember, for those of us over 50 years old, we had, basically five networks (CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, and SIN (Univision's precursor) growing up. ESPN and CNN didn't appear until 1980ish, when I was alredy 23 years old and I'm one of the younger baby boomers.

Unlike your professional workplace, those of us who have been in the financial world, even the old dinosaurs, have had to respond to online trading, banking and the need to access breaking news via the net. Since I recently worked in the health care field, I noted that so many of the older people there have had to adapt to all the technological advancements in their industry, and as such have had greater exposure to those "tubes on the trucks", as Senator Stevens likes to talk about.

The occupation one finds oneself in dictates the everyday exposure to new technology. Yes, older people probably do have more trust in the older MSM resources but I think you will find that people 65 and younger probably have had enough internet usage exposure to be aware of the wide variety of news and opinion options at our fingertips. There's more of us wrinklies than just me who are "turning on, tuning in, and ... well, not dropping out" now.

As for the ads, well, what does it say that almost all the ads on the network I most watch (Fox Soccer Channel) are for "male enhancement" products? YIKES!

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Jon Kay — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:38:00 -0000

People talk alot about racism and sexism in this campaign, but I'm seeing a much bigger bad -ism everywhere: ageism.

It seems strange, but I inv ite you to keep it in mind as you read posts and comments down the road. You may find it explains more than you were expecting. And remember, it's on all sides.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

DianaLB — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:40:30 -0000

My father is nearly 54 and has an unsubstantiated distrust of Obama. He claims that Obama's rise is due to his personal agenda of becoming president - why else would you work as a community organizer? According to my father, Obama has "rage in his blood" (he still can't get over/understand Rev. Wright) and Obama's campaign is "bullshit." Basically, I have hung up on him/screamed at him on several occasions.

It is beyond my comprehension how an intelligent man with a seemingly open-minded political view (he voted for Kinky Friedman in the Texas gubernatorial race for god sakes!) would harbor such dislike for Obama. My father did vote for Hillary in the TX primary because she is "more experienced". Ha.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Shine — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:14:00 -0000

JT & Lady Wesley:

Sure, you are reading this blog, so naturally you log on. But most people over 50 do not log on and use these here Interwebs as a primary information source. Just about every media study confirms this: the age of the average MSM reader/viewer is over 50. It's why MSM political coverage has been getting more conservative over the years. Bill Kristol is at the NYT not so much because his views mimic those of his corporate overlords as much as the fact the his corporate overlords realize that their audience is aging, and that as they age they will become, to varying degrees, more conservative (though the NYT will most likely not regress into the WSJ opinion page.)

I'm not sure why more progressive bloggers don't mention this dynamic when they complain about MSM politcal coverage. Fox News, Bill Kristol, Ron Fournier, Lou Dobbs, the Sunday Monring Yak-Shows, the WaPo editorial page, that fact that Jonah Goldberg has a syndicated column picked up by the LA Times and the Chicago Tribune, are the way they are due to the fact that the average newspaper reader and Cable/Network News viewer is a 50+ y.o. white person. They are just appealing to their audience.

I mean, pay attention to the commercials: Retirement financial planning services and pharmaceuticals. 'Nuff said.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

KarenZ — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:47:16 -0000

Let's not get too carried away with generalizations about the over-50 crowd, of which I am a reluctant member. I picked Obama over a year ago, am fairly savvy on my MacBook Pro and iPod, and I read this blog. Proof positive of hipness, no?

I intentionally skipped over candidates from my generation precisely because we've blown it, and it's time to bring in new people and new ideas. The one thing I had to struggle with was this: Barack Obama will be the first President younger than me. That makes me feel old somehow (even though he's just 9 years younger).

I don't understand the Hillary deadenders, much less the supposed Democrats for McCain. And I don't understand the "he's too vague and unformed" argument.

Listen to Barack Obama. Listen to John McCain. One is focused on the future and the other on the past. That's all you need to know.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

JT (Chicago) — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:42:38 -0000

Shine, I'm 51 and and many of my ilk and older do all these new fangled things. However, I take your point that there is resistence and sometimes it takes a "helper" to more folks into the 21st century - just try explaining that you can put ALL those CDs on an mp3 player and play it in your car, on your home system, or on your player.

In reading the article, I was struck up front by this comment:

"Obama's most ardent admirers, who include much of the political press and practically all of the liberal intelligentsia, will almost certainly report and analyze the event as a mammoth historical occasion, and quite possibly praise the speech as one of the greatest political orations ever."

The progressive liberal intelligentsia is still pining for Dennis Kucinich or Russ Feingold. As far as the political press, outside of Chris Matthews getting all tingly in his legs, there aren't too many who are fully embracing Obama. It's more like they're hoping that this story continues because it provides plenty of angles to be dissected.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Shine — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:49:02 -0000

I can't figure out if these guys can't log on and check Obama's platform or what.

I think you answered your own question.

Most folks over 50 don't log on. They get most of their information through traditional MSM sources. If it's not on TV, or if they didn't read it in a newspaper, it didn't happen.

Attorney at my firm (over 50) just bought an iPhone. He and his wife also wanted to see the new Woody Allen movie after work Friday night, and he wanted to know and compare the show times at a few theaters near his home (Pasadena). Spent most of his lunch hour on Friday complaining that the LA Times doesn't run movie show times anymore, and because the LA Weekly was gone from the Starbucks, he lamented that he'd have to wait until Saturday because he doesn't know the show times and his copy of the LA Weekly was at home. While he bitched and moaned about the decline of the LA Times (lack of movie show times as Exhibit A) and what a hassle it was to call three different theaters, I grabbed his iPhone, logged on to movies.aol.com, typed in his home zip code, and showed him the show times. Then instead of e-mailing the show times to himself, he wrote them down on a napkin.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

cnnr — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:47:19 -0000

Before McCain became the nominee, and a little while after, there was some criticism of him by the rightwing media and pundits. BUt now they've all rallied around him. WHen was the last time you heard Coulter or Limbaugh et al say they weren't going to vote for him?

BUt a lot of liberal media/pundits continue to criticize Obama.

ANd liberals wonder why the Republicans always win. WHy don't they leave all their criticisms for after the election, damnit?

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

peep — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:24:20 -0000

Sowell would be a great choice as McCain's VP. It would be the ultimate "YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!" ticket.

No, the ultimate "YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!" VP selection would be Andy Rooney. Or else maybe Bob Dole. McCain might want to choose someone that would make him look young(ish) by comparison.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

like totally down — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:23:08 -0000

In an earlier life, Juan William wrote the companion book for the excellent civil rights documentary Eyes on the Prize.

Today, for about half a million bucks a year, Williams serves as one of the House Liberals at Fox News, along with Liasson and Colmes.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

rickhavoc — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:08:48 -0000

The dogs bark, but the caravan rolls on.

There has not been a contender for the job that could not be pigeonholed since...maybe...ever. If I knew more about history, I could answer more firmly. Example: in 1984, Reagan hit Mondale right where he stood, and vice versa. Who they were, as it were, was clear.

Every candidate has been a type, and all fairly shallow. Even the first female candidate from a major party would have been a fairly shallow type. They may be evasive, but they are not evanescent. Obama, right down to his funny name, is Something Else. Old people, and their tenders, don't want Something Else. If they'd wanted Something Else, it would not be Something Else.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Stacy — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:03:15 -0000

"That said, on any other issue, he does a pretty good job as the lone "liberal" on Fox. Certainly better than Alan Colmes..."

Uh...what? Juan Williams is hardly a liberal and LOVES agreeing with Sean Hannity and BillO as much as possible. Alan Colmes may be a pushover, but he's certainly a more loyal liberal than Juan Fucking Williams.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

MoeLarryAndJesus — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:56:54 -0000

peep says: "Thomas Sowell is a different story from the rest. All liberals drive him crazy."

Well, he is crazy.

Sowell would be a great choice as McCain's VP. It would be the ultimate "YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!" ticket.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Pesto — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:55:43 -0000

Has Juan Williams ever not been a reprehensible, toadying hack?

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

MJ Rosenberg — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:53:20 -0000

I can't believe you "don't quite get it." I'm white and over 50 and I get it.

It's the uppity black guy thing, pure and simple. They are happy to have a bright young African-American like Obama as their teaching assistant, apprentice or protege. But the idea that he'd be their leader unmans them.

Add Paul Krugman to your list, too.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

peep — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:44:29 -0000

Well, Thomas Sowell is a different story from the rest. All liberals drive him crazy.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

MC — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:36:38 -0000

I'm in academia, and all I gotta say is: SMACK!

[An aside on being blinded by your assumptions: That's exactly right. If someone's work is based on unquestioned assumptions, that's far worse than being wrong. At least you can figure out why you're wrong. When you've got unquestioned assumptions that distort what you see (data show that it's not seeing is believing, but believing is seeing...) then the rest of your work gets called into question.

That's the beauty of academia. ALL of us have unquestioned assumptions about our work. That's why all our work should be called into question. The results that last are the ones that matter. To make a vague attempt at returning to the topic: Obama's election would be a result that mattered, dammit!]

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Trevor J — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:17:57 -0000

Word on Juan Williams. Sometime early in the primary, maybe around New Hampshire's vote, Williams began laying into Obama. It's clear he doesn't like him though, and I'm not sure why.

That said, on any other issue, he does a pretty good job as the lone "liberal" on Fox. Certainly better than Alan Colmes.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

ethan salto — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:14:35 -0000

Tavis Smiley is only 44, but he's also been douchey about Obama.

Re: Publius tackles Wilentz

Jaybird — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:11:16 -0000

The guy was wrong about X... so why should we trust him about Y or Z?

See: Edwards.