The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

mistinguette grandison — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 10:14:36 -0000

Coretta was a strong supporter of gay rights actually.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

mistinguette grandison — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 09:20:40 -0000

Yes, there needs to be accountability for homophobia in the black community. But people need to recognize that it's not a one way street. There is a problem with Racism in the gay community too.

And if you look at history, you will recognize that black people are not the only group of people whom have faced discrimination to turn around and discriminate against others. The Irish American community was not so friendly to the black community one time ago. When a member of an oppressed group discriminates against another member of an oppressed group, it should be a reminder that bigotry is not exclusive to the privileged.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

mistinguette grandison — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 09:14:27 -0000

what about black gay people?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

statsman — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:43:14 -0000

@ Mad Professah

Thanks for the heads up. The new report uses several sets of data. One was polling data gathered in mid-November and is displayed in Figure 1. That gives us the 58% figure.

After reading your post I went back to the squiggly line in Figure 3 that uses actual returns. It seems to me like most of the black voters (7%) of the total would be found in precincts that are predominantly black. With that in mind, is it not more useful to look at only precincts with a high percentage of black voters? If we do the trend line would be a bit higher.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

MadProfessah — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:44:14 -0000

@statsman The new report which shows that 57-59% of Blacks (7% of the electorate) voted for Prop 8 gets to that number from analyzing the 5 Counties in California which together hold 2/3rd of all Black voters in the state. It is NOT poll data, but an analysis of actual voting data. Doing so, they provide a racial profile of the electorate in Prop 8 which estimates 51.6% support for Prop 8, which is pretty darn close to the actual 52.3% vote.

What I find fascinating is that they estimate the Latino vote as 59% for Prop 8, but all anyone wants to talk about is the Black voting pattern. Why is that?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Tammie — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:52:01 -0000

@Aloysius

I agree with you, especially about the persecution complexes. My friend was up in arms today about the Prop 8 proponents filing with a federal court to overturn the campaign disclosure law that was voted by the people, so they can hide all of their campaign donations, citing the public backlash that people received for donating to Prop 8. Ironically, they used that same information to threaten businesses that donated to the No campaign with "outing" them so their supporters would know which companies did not "support traditional marriage." And now they want to overturn the "will of the people" in some other self-serving issue, after crying foul at being boycotted. We had our fair share of vandalism, hate speech, and Yes supporters physically attacking No supporters at rallies, and why wasn't any of this all over the media? Anyone would be able to see their hypocrisy if some news outlet, not just bloggers, would just report on it.

So who is going to lead this type of public relations campaign? The problem with our side is that everyone is so concerned about doing the right thing and being good and fair, so no one seems to be able to do what it takes to expose them for what they are. Do you have any ideas on how to do this without stooping to their level? I still believe that some religious leaders, like Rick Warren, were not directly involved with Protect Marriage, the folks who brought us Prop H8, and because of his power and influence and fact that he gets criticism from the right for not being "conservative" enough, it would be better for us to offer him an olive branch.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Aloysius — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:10:32 -0000

Tammie,

There is a huge problem with someone like Rick Warren calling for "mutual respect": it's completely disingenuous. He and the people like him don't just want to be allowed to practice their faith in peace and go about their business unhindered. You must have noticed that anti-gay religious groups typically have huge persecution complexes--the LDS, the Catholic Church, so many evangelical churches--where any criticism of their beliefs is taken as an attack on their whole faith. Look at all the claims that criticism of the role of the LDS in Prop 8 amounts to "hate speech"! The only kind of respect that they'll accept is asymmetrical. They want to be able to denounce gays in public, and they want to be immune to any public criticism for it.

Now obviously when I say "they" I should be a little careful. The problems here are the socially conservative leaders of these churches, many of whom it should be pointed out profit enormously from their congregations. I think experience shows us that they will act very aggressively to protect their power and influence, and have given no indications that they're willing to actually talk to people like us in good faith.

There is a stigma attached to being disapproved of by a large segment of society, no matter how much of a distinction we make between disappoving and disallowing. This is especially the case when religion is in the picture. Religious groups are especially sensitive to disapproval because their teachings are often logically absurd and tend to fall apart if people start looking too closely at them. Look at the decline of Christianity across much of western Europe; look at the state of the Anglican Church in England especially. Look at how unstinting the Scientologists and the Mormons are at attacking any mockery (and often just plain old exposure: they work hard to keep their magic underwear to themselves) of their beliefs in the media!

Tolerance for dissent will over time undermine social conservatives' influence in society, and social conservatives know this. Their leaders will work tirelessly to protect their own power bases, and to do that they will demonise anyone who threatens their absolutist moral order in even measured and concilatory tones. I'm certainly not happy about it, but I don't see any way to avoid it either.

I think that, if we want to make meaningful progress, we have to prepare not just for outreach and education but for an aggressive public relations campaign to undermine and marginalise socially conservative groups and leaders, and paint them as hypocrites and liars. Isolate them from their followers. Carrot and the stick, you know?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Tammie — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:41:17 -0000

@Aloysius:

People like Rick Warren are allowed to believe and practice what they believe in, and so should all of us. When he called for mutual respect and that we should be able to agree to disagree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Catholics believe that marriage should be between people who have never married, and anything other than that is adultery and a sin. While many of us don't agree with them, I don't think we put them on the same level as white supremists.

I think that people need to be reminded that if they believe in mutual respect and that we can disapprove of each others beliefs and agree to disagree, then they should also consider the diference between DISAPPROVE and DISALLOW. Disapproving of other people's religious and moral values is gravely different than disallowing those people to live their own lives as they see fit, per their own religious and moral beliefs that are shared by millions of other people who just want to live their own lives and not bother anyone else. At that point, it can no longer be called respect.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

andthenshebithim — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:34:51 -0000

ECL,

Thanks so much for your response, again, very much appreciated. Your experience that it's mostly the "gay white cisgendered guys who've been notably losing it" rings true in my community as well. I have ideas about that, but your response is making me feel all "let's not fight, we can do this" so I won't go there.

Thanks again.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

statsman — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:24:06 -0000

The LA Times posted the headline "70% of African Americans backed Prop. 8, exit poll finds" on November 5. This number was derived from flimsy data collected as voters left the ballot box. Anti-black racist backlash ensues. From November 6th to November 16th more data is collected that shows 58% of blacks voted for prop 8. Is it possible that some respondents changed their mind - that is, felt regret for their vote - in the weeks that followed prop 8?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

countryguy — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:39:46 -0000

Re: "The hilarious part about this is. If there was a gay marriage bill in say, uhm, Idaho. We all know it would fail, but who would they blame then? I guess we just blame whoever voted for the bill in the highest majority in whatever state it happened to be on the ballot in."

When the gay marriage bill is in a place like Idaho, or Kentucky or West Virginia we are quick to label the voters bigots. We rarely take a critical look at why they voted that way, how church attendance influenced their attitudes or talk about how to build coalitions with them.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

ECL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:07:28 -0000

Thanks, andthenshebithim, and I believe I hear what you're saying, too. You've written a meaty comment here with more stuff than I can unpack right now, but I hear you.

I tried and mostly failed to word that comment to imply the objectification -- "assume" is too weak a word, and I knew it. I fussed at it and lost. But I recognize that your point is on target.

I think I've had a taste of how that dynamic might feel from another side, too. I don't want to be all White Person Drags Up The Class Issues Oh Christ Not That Again, but it reminds me of being working class (it's complicated, but we can call it that) at Reed. All these kids in Guatemalan peasant costumes wanted a piece of me. They didn't care who I was or what I was about, but they were damn well going to make sure that Little Miss Poverty Line was going to speak on behalf of all poor people and say that the choice to give up Perrier is deeply meaningful to the impoverished peoples of the world. Not King, then, but Marx. I was gobsmacked. No woman is entirely a stranger to forms of objectification, but this had me thinking, "Hello, people! No cookie for you! I am not your validation vending machine!" (Alas, I was polite. I was young.) Sure, I was a working class hero, or something, but ew. They romanticized the downtrodden proletariat masses and they were bound and determined to treat me as a representative mass -- no more, no less. "Consume" is precisely the right word for it.

Those were some kids who needed to grow up, too. A lot. Preferably far away from me.

Anyhow, I'm definitely not saying it's fine with me; thanks for drawing out that theme. I think it's less "symbol of hope" here than "symbol of greatness" or "symbol of historical inevitability", but it's still *symbol*. A representative mass isn't supposed to talk out of turn.

I feel like I've been tapping my watch and thinking, "Okay, guys, you've had your moment of grief, and you've had your freakout. I get that. It's very human. I get that it hits you where you live on so many levels in so many ways. I get that you needed some time before you could get your head back on. But now you have to pull it together." This whole BLACK PEOPLE IZ DED TO ME thing has got to go.

Those two options you speak of are tired, and they are stupid, and foolish, and they harm people, and they keep people from getting good things done, and they are just... gah. They are embarrassing to me. God, I hope there's some other space. If there isn't, let's go make one.

I don't know about chicagogreg, but I look at a particular set of white gay men of my acquaintance who've flipped between those options (don't know about your circle, but in my neck of the woods, it's the gay white cisgendered guys who've been notably losing it) and I feel like they are letting down the team. I'm not sure when exactly I'm going to stop wincing and start telling them to knock it off. After Rick Warren says his piece, I expect. But then, nobody I know personally is likely to be rearranging his life in a fury; no hurry there. So I'll start here instead:

Jimmy, dude, if you're reading this, I know you probably don't want to hear this from me, but I'm asking you, random crank on the internet though I am, to consider chilling a little. Teach the class that makes the most sense from an academic perspective, whatever that may be. As much as teaching can really stink from day to day, and students can be incredibly annoying, it's still an honor for you and a responsibility. Identity politics is one thing, but you're bound to do right by your students. You can't let your anger drive you here. It's not right. Don't let this thing eat your brain.

I'm saying this as a queer white woman who grew up on the poverty line and has had a disability -- your class is dandy by my identity politics. It sounds like it could be a class in how to not piss off ECL on a personal level. (Throw in a little Nerd Rage and miffed atheism and you've got the whole set.) Even so, my strong suspicion is that spending a lot of time on race and ethnicity made the soundest pedagogical sense.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

andthenshebithim — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:08:34 -0000

ECL:

you write:

"Coming of age in the seventies and eighties, in a city like mine, any white kid gets used to singing "We Shall Overcome" at school assemblies. The movement led by Dr. King becomes paradigmatic of all civil rights movements. It's practically mythic. The phrase "ur-text" comes to mind. So anyone working in a civil rights capacity is bound to feel (at least at times) like a spiritual descendant of the King era.

For white GLBTs to be rejected by black people, therefore, can be particularly painful. Because black people get assumed by white people to be the arbiters of whether something's authentically part of the King legacy. My gay white friends thought, consciously or subconsciously, that the liberation history of black civil rights was in some way part of their own history of liberation."

I appreciate you mapping this out in this discussion, I hear what you're saying. I think that there's got to be some space other than the two options of romanticizing Black folks as the bridge to the liberation of everyone and demonizing Black folks as the ones who, if it weren't for them, gays would be liberated, there would be no housing crisis, and everyone would generally be happier.

Both strategies objectify Black people. I feel like when Ta-Nehisi writes "when it comes to blacks, we believe the worse and ask questions, uhm, like never," reveals that many white folks (and others) have a habit of thinking of Black people as a monolithic symbol instead of a complex group of people. I think this applies to your description of how some white LGBT folks of a certain era consume King, the Civil Rights Movement, and, as a consequence, Black folks as a kind of unified whole.

What I find striking is that chicagoreg isn't saying that he's not going to separate himself from white folks. Half of white voters in California voted for 8, but he's apparently cool with white people. 42% of Black voters in Cali (not that much less than half) voted against 8, but he's DONE with Black people. DONE!!!

Okay, so where does that leave me, a Black queer woman in Cali that voted against 8, successfully rallied Black folks to be against 8, and was sad to see it passed. Sad to see that so many Black folks, white folks, Latino folks, Asian folks, and the mysterious Other folks voted for it. Seems like the passage of 8 was a multiracial project. But the Black vote, because of the way in which we're objectified, stands out in particular. And the white queers are SO OVER BLACK PEOPLE. Not Black straight people. Not Black people who are anti-SSM. ALL OF US. We are OUT of jimmy's syllabus! lol

This objectification is deeply problematic, even if it seems positive (Civil Rights liberators of all!). Why is it that white folks can be complicated individuals, but Black people have to be a symbol of hope or a symbol of failure? How does racism drive that?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Daughter — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:43:08 -0000

Aloysius,

I hear what you're saying, but that means you need to be prepared for more resistance. It gets tricky when you're talking to people about what they believe their God is telling them. You're not just telling them to change their opinion; you're telling them to go against what they believe is coming to them from God. People are much more amenable to thoughts such as, "I don't agree with it, but I don't believe in imposing my beliefs on someone else" (and therefore I will accept gay marriage, or abortion, or whatever) than they are to being told they have to change their beliefs.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

jp — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:22:44 -0000

thanks to all who have posted - I was devistated by the passage of Prop 8 - I live in Ohio and lived through our own ssm ban in 2004 - but Prop 8's passage was much worse for me. I was deeply hurt by the initial news that Black and Hispanic voters backed passage by over 50% - but the most profound thing I read here - in all of this - is that the gay and Black communities don't know each other - and that is sadly true. This is our chance to win equality in the gay community - to get to know others who don't know us. to reach out and share our lives and our stories with others. The only way we bridge the gap is to simply keep living our lives - openly and honestly - and we must reach out. Only then will it become silly for anyone to ever ask to have the gay marriage "issue" explained to them - or need an explanation as to why necrophelia is jaw-droppingly ignorant. Thanks to those of you who have posted to help me to understand the Black community better - how much we all have to learn about each other...

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

ECL — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:10:23 -0000

I think ChicagoGreg is basically right. And I don't even think it's all that bad a thing. Feels like I've gone through the cynicism and come out the other side.

As a bisexual woman, I came out with the idea that the glorious history of Stonewall et al was the history of my people, and that gay liberation had something real to do with my own liberation. As an out queer woman, I felt that I was part of that lineage. Imagine my surprise when I found out I was supposedly a lying nympho traitor. (See the work of Paula Rust for more on lesbian attitudes about bisexuals.) It hurt, angered, and alienated me. In the end, I simmered down and recognized that I would be wise to be part of creating a social/political identity for bis that didn't count on gay people as 100% allies. Because while we have some things in common, we are not the same. I learned not to expect to be accepted as a first-class citizen in gay-dominated spaces, and I learned that I'd have to make a case for myself if I wanted to stay there. I learned to stand on my own feet and stop implicitly allowing gay men and lesbians to be gatekeepers of queer authenticity. What I'm saying is, I grew up already.

I see a parallel in some of the rhetoric around black voters and Prop 8. Coming of age in the seventies and eighties, in a city like mine, any white kid gets used to singing "We Shall Overcome" at school assemblies. The movement led by Dr. King becomes paradigmatic of all civil rights movements. It's practically mythic. The phrase "ur-text" comes to mind. So anyone working in a civil rights capacity is bound to feel (at least at times) like a spiritual descendant of the King era.

For white GLBTs to be rejected by black people, therefore, can be particularly painful. Because black people get assumed by white people to be the arbiters of whether something's authentically part of the King legacy. My gay white friends thought, consciously or subconsciously, that the liberation history of black civil rights was in some way part of their own history of liberation. But, as they believed themselves to have been roughly informed, they were wrong.

It's not just a matter of "oh, liberality, blah blah, we white GLBTs should be able to take those black people for granted," though I sure wouldn't deny that there's some of that. (Also, the anti-8 campaign was plain stupid.) But it's not all that facile; there's also, I think, some deep, ugly emotional stuff getting stirred up here among the GLBTs in the wake of Prop 8. I'm using words like "lineage" and "descendant" carefully here, because we're talking in many cases about people who've been rejected by their families, or who have had good reason to fear rejection by their families. There's a resonance. And it makes people weird out. If they're Dan Savage, who's not exactly a clear thinker to begin with, it makes 'em entirely crazy. You get temper tantrums.

But you know what? That's too bad. We need to grow up already.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Aloysius — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:52:34 -0000

Daughter, I get what you're saying and it does make sense, but...

Ultimately, it's hypocritical of us to pretend that we respect the religious beliefs of people like Warren and that we aren't out to change how these people worship. We don't, and we are. We want to make homophobia socially unacceptable. We want people who rail against gays to be viewed with the same contempt the mainstream now shows to white supremacists. We want to teach kids in our schools that everyone is deserving of the same basic human rights and dignities even if their parents and their churches disagree.

Rick Warren's sincerely-held religious convictions are anathema to people like us. We ultimately can't avoid this issue. That kind of religious zealotry is fundamentally incompatible with what we would consider the essential values and norms of a pluralistic, liberal, modern society.

We are out to replace their values with our own. Aren't we?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Tammie — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:48:36 -0000

Thank you! Many of my fellow Facebookers and I have been on the discussion boards trying to engage Yes supporters in thoughtful conversation, and you won't believe how those initial exit polls took a life of their own. They should never be used to "blame" people. If anything, they help campaigners do some retrospection to figure out where they could have done better outreach.

If any other minorities would like to help us, several of us are on the "Pastor Rick Warren" fan page, respectfully engaging in discussion with many of his supporters, most of whom are generally respectful back to us. There is this one fellow, however, who insists that he talked to Coretta Scott King and to Yolanda King before they passed away, and insists that they would never support gay marriage. He also insists that African Americans find it insulting that the gays are trying to align themselves with the Civil Rights Movement and that the exit polls showed that African Americans would never support gay marriage. I would encourage some of our African American brothers and sisters to come and engage in some good discussion and help us reach out and educate people:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pastor-Rick-Warren/34845120902

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Maria — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:33:48 -0000

Adina Levin:

Yeah, you're right, but that was mostly just poor wording on my part... I'm just disheartened that the community this prop robbed rights from were more motivated afterwards than before. I heard in SD of lots of great parties, and fundraisers in high rises downtown. That's not what is going to change peoples minds - going door to door (we had no less than 4 people knock on our door to ask for yes on 8! No on 8? Zero) and changing peoples minds. Telling them that gay marriage isn't going to be taught in schools, any more than "straight" marriage is... telling them that they love their families as much as I love mine, and they just want the rights to protect them. etc etc etc... It was a poorly run campaign, extremely poorly run, so to see anger towards any one group for how they did or didn't vote I think is hypocritical.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Galleymac — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:14:26 -0000

@jimmy and chicagoreg -- I'm not going to tell you not to be angry. I've no desire to cite any bingo cards. You SHOULD be angry. You got railroaded, and blindsided, and it was abhorrent. You should be f*cking FURIOUS. But while your anger is utterly justified, your tactics here, quite simply, will not help you achieve your goals. In particular, you are willfully misunderstanding what the blogger is trying to say. Be angry, let it be your fire and your drive -- but stop with the willful misunderstanding. It's just bad rhetorical strategy.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

andthenshebithim — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:04:12 -0000

@jimmy

if you are teaching courses on gender, sexuality, and class, and aren't doing so in a way that integrates race, your courses are bad. No offense. Any class on feminism that eliminates Combahee River Collective, any class on queer sexuality that eliminates Audre Lorde, any class on class that eliminates Ella Baker fails.

Not trying to be rude, just trying to check you on the academic front.

@chicagoreg

if marginalized folks only depended on ourselves then we would have nothing. The backbone of movements relies on coalition building. I recommend Bernice Johnson Reagon's article on this. Coalitions ain't easy, but they are central. The No on 8 campaign did not do a good job building coalitions. That's one huge reason why it failed. That's the lesson. Without building coalitions with white liberals, it's not clear if the Civil Rights Movement could have accomplished all that it did. Don't take your toys and go home. Get uncomfortable and build relationships, that's how winning is done.

Check out Milk. He got it.

Thanks Ta-Nehisi for your EXCELLENT work on this. I don't know why it's so hard for folks to hold on to two truths at the same time: Black folks (just like all other racial groups) need to figure out strategies to eliminate homophobia in our communities AND blaming Black folks for the pass of prop 8 is a disingenuous move that goes nowhere and benefits no one. This is not rocket science, folks.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

chicagogreg — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:04:40 -0000

@jimmy (6 up)

If your summarization is accurate ("TNC was right a long ways back...something like: blacks weren't against slavery, blacks were against being the slaves.") -- and the more I think about it, I would have to agree -- we/"the gays" can only count on ourselves and those we can directly influence. I think "we" did a great job of imagining support from Obama and the other minority communities.

It's every minority group out for itself! It took 30+ years, but I think I've just learned an invaluable life lesson.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Roger — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:57:27 -0000

Andrew said:

"But I expect other minority groups (whom I have supported literally all my adult life) to join me in my fight for equality. And when they refuse to, I am disappointed. I think that's valid."

Why is it valid? Because they should see this issue exactly as you see it, but don't?

and how exactly do black voters know that gay voters have good will towards them? The two communities don't know each other. You seem to missed all the relevant points in my previous post. Here is an additional one: many black gays have noted that the gay community itself is socially segregated by race in most places. How do you think you know the thoughts and feelings of black people if you don't know them at all on a personal basis?

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

BobSF_94117 — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:06:44 -0000

The poor quality of the initial exit polls was obvious from the beginning*, but "controversy" is what sells these days. It makes advertising revenue for websites and it can make careers. There was a time when promulgating false stories broke careers. Sadly, that time has passed.

* 274 black individuals in one or two undisclosed precincts. It never made any sense that black voting would be so different from that of latinos and other historically-oppressed racial minorities.

Re: Prop 8 and blaming the blacks

Daughter — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:04:44 -0000

Aloysius, I want to address what you wrote here: "The pro-8 campaign was literally nothing but a pack of outright lies and hysterical bigotry. There is not a single remotely plausible reason to oppose same-sex marriage. There's just bigotry."

As I understand it, one of the memes promoted by the pro-8 campaign was that supporting gay marriage would lead to teachers being forced to teach about it in schools, and ministers forced to marry gay couples. There are a lot of religious people who, however they might personally feel about homosexuality, don't feel they have the right to tell other people how to live as long as it doesn't infringe on their own rights. That's why you see greater support among Americans of all races and religions for gay rights in the areas of employment non-discrimination and adoption rights.

However, the anti-gay marriage folks have hugely promoted the idea that supporting gay marriage will take away their rights to believe and practice their religions as they see fit. And frankly, I've seen tone-deafness about this on the left in the recent Rick Warren controversy, not only on blogs, but also by Rachel Maddow.

One of the complaints about Warren (and there are many, many legitimate ones) is that his church practices discrimination because it won't allow gay people to be members. I think the actual wording on the church's web site (since removed) is that gay people are welcome to visit, but if they are living an "active gay lifestyle" they can't be members.

For the life of me, I can't understand why many progressives were so shocked by this. Did they expect a conservative Christian church to say otherwise? Would they accuse the same church of religious discrimination if they said (which they probably do) that only people who believe in Jesus can be members?

My point is, by criticizing Warren for what his church teaches and practices within the confines of his church (and *not* what he brings out into the public square, which is always fair game), then those of us on the left are playing right into that fear: that if gay marriage is allowed, soon even in churches Christians won't be able to practice and teach what they believe.

So from that perspective, the pro-8 campaign sounds like prophecy, not lies, and the rejection of gay marriage sounds like a protection of one's own rights, not bigotry. (Please note, I am NOT saying this is what I believe, just trying to help you understand the perspective of some religious people).