The Atlantic - Latest Comments in On protesting too much...

Re: On protesting too much...

grady — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:09:44 -0000

Have any of you thought about what this is really about? It's about insurance and embarrassment. The girl is now insured by her mother's health insurance. If she gets married, she won't be and she'll have to rely on the hubby's insurance, which won't exist since he's unemployed. As a result, Medicaid would end up paying for the pregnancy and the care of the baby. Now that wouldn't go over very well with all those conservative types would it.

Re: On protesting too much...

Thomas R — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:19:43 -0000

For the record Rod is criticizing Bristol Palin.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/02/bristol-palin-on-abstinence.html

That might not be clear enough, but in the comments portion he says "I think she screwed up bigtime. I think the Palins made the best of a bad situation, but I think Bristol is only admirable in that she chose to have her baby,"

Re: On protesting too much...

AG — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:38:17 -0000

To rephrase: it's not Bristol's "fault". She's 17, or whatever.

I know brooksfoe has basically retracted his criticisms here (because I think he saw where it was going), but this is exactly why stigma needs to really be reserved for, yes, only really beyond-the-pale, violent behavior.

Because there is a hair's breadth between stigmatizing behavior and stigmatizing people.

Anon, despite his preference for stigmatization, hit on the actual consequence of what stigmatization does, and even he agrees that it's something to avoid. He hopes to find a "happy medium" between discouragement of the behavior and the marginalization of not merely the unwed parent(s), but the marginalization of the child who had no say in his/her birth.

News flash for Anon and social conservatives: a happy medium doesn't exist.

This should be, if anything, a conservative observation of history and learning from it. Human beings are really, really bad at distinguishing the behavior from the person (see also: homosexuals). You stigmitize the former, you will end up stigmatizing the latter, whether or not the latter "deserves" stigmatization. Ample illustrations from literature have even absorbed what happens, c.f. The Scarlet Letter, The Importance of Being Earnest.

When, social conservatives, people look at you like you're being assholes, it's because you seem pretty comfortable grinding actual folks underfoot in your quest for perfection. I understand it may be out of a desire to achieve a perceived "greater good," but you'll have to excuse me for being very wary of any laws you many propose to sideline people and children based on the evidence so far.

It's certainly your decision to treat any people in your community like dirt if they fail to measure up to your standards. But save the law for making good behavior easier, not making otherwise good people criminals.

(And don't expect a lot of invitations from your neighbors to block parties, not that I think you'd mind much.)

Re: On protesting too much...

iron pimp hand — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:44:31 -0000

"Bullshit. They weren't fucking "reports." They were the words of her mother speaking on her behalf"

No they weren't. Palin never said a thing about her daughter marrying in the next year. The Palin announcement simply said that her daughter intends to marry, something that Bristol Palin reiterates in the linked summary of her interview.

It seems that you go so excited by the prospect of a 'gotcha' that basic comprehension went out the window.

Re: On protesting too much...

Thomas R — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:57:55 -0000

Well I may have went overboard a bit. Conservative whites probably are more likely to judge poor black single moms, but I just don't think it's a very exact correlation. I think it's become less of one all the time.

Even with the hard-nosed type Republicans I know I think it's becoming more classist than racial. If Bristol Palin was the daughter of some poor-white nobody I don't think the kind-of conservatives you mean would care for her much more than if she was the daughter of a poor black nobody.

Rod Dreher certainly has his problems, I disagree with him more often than not, but I don't think his stigmatizing is racial. He stigmatizes what he deems "sexually immoral behavior" in white kids and does so all the time. I think he is just a consistent scold on this kind-of thing while also being a believer in forgiveness. If TNC "repented", as he'd see it, and became a married Christian he'd probably be praising him to the nines. Likewise when people he thought were moral, like thoroughly white Catholic bishops, turn out not to be he dumps on them like nobody's business. (He is Orthodox now, but when I'd first heard of him he was Catholic)

Re: On protesting too much...

Persia — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:15:42 -0000

If Bristol Palin were poor and black you really have no way to know how Rod or Ross or me or most any McCain/Palin voter would feel.

We have plenty of evidence of what they'd say, though.

Thomas, I think your story actually illustrates some of what we've been talking about-- when it comes to individual families, it's harder to 'stigmatize' and be, basically, an asshole. Witness the way this all started-- "Ta-Nehisi's individual circumstances are unique, but in the aggregate..." Every black family is unique (as is every family of every other ethnicity, blah blah). All this talk of 'stigmatizing' and 'social acceptance' ignores that in favor of wrapping up all African-American single moms as 'welfare dutchesses' with big TVs.

Re: On protesting too much...

Christopher John Brennan — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:08:02 -0000

1. Of course there are many hypocrites among both right-wing, religious Republicans and left-wing, secular Democrats. Both parties are full of people who will disregard their stated principles when it gives their "team" a better shot at winning.

2. Politicians should stop using their children to further their political ambitions.

3. Before posting a blog entry involving a politician's child, ask yourself if you might be able to make your point some other way. Just because politicians dangle their kids as bait doesn't mean you have to take it. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that...

Re: On protesting too much...

Thomas R — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:14:06 -0000

Bleh, it's MLPB&J.

Still I think your goading got me to give to a group that gives wheelchairs to Iraqi children so thanks on that.

Re: On protesting too much...

MoeLarryAndJesus — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:57:19 -0000

Ann Brock wrote: "This is, after all, the same Ann Coulter who call Sarah Palin her conservative of the year. Ann Coulter is a hypocrite! She can call other single mothers, "selfish". But, she won't dare say it about Sarah Palin daughter who's a baby mama, also."

Coulter's just protecting "her" own. After all, "she"'s the baby's actual biological father.

Thomas R said: "If Bristol Palin were poor and black you really have no way to know how Rod or Ross or me or most any McCain/Palin voter would feel."

Ross denounced a poor black woman as a "welfare duchess" because he thought her TV was too big. Somehow I don't think he'd be doing handstands of joy over a poor black teenager running Bristol Palin's game.

I'm not entirely sure McCain/Palin voters HAVE feelings as I understand them, of course.

Re: On protesting too much...

Thomas R — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:31:10 -0000

Although I criticized her attitude a bit I do get a "vibe" from some of these posts that I really don't like.

When I was a kid the only person I really knew with my condition, osteogenesis imperfecta, was a black girl whose mom was unmarried. My parents were active in teaching her what they learned about the condition and my parents are, in many ways, more conservative than me. Oddly my Dad actually is a bit racist. Anyway as mentioned none of us "stigmatized" her family. We invited them over and did stuff with them. Although I admit I lost touch with her a bit after I went to college.

I think some of you are taking statements from a few politicians and then making an unfair generalization of conservatives. If Bristol Palin were poor and black you really have no way to know how Rod or Ross or me or most any McCain/Palin voter would feel. From conversations of even some pretty wacky Rightists they certainly wouldn't want such a girl to abort. I know I'm a naive white-guy, but I think some of you are too quick to make things racial.

Re: On protesting too much...

sk — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:03:37 -0000

Re: "I also think she has been treated MUCH more harshly by the media than Jamie Lynn Spears."

I don't agree with that statement. I'd be interested to see examples. I don't think there's been a lot of criticism aimed directly at Bristol. I haven't seen people saying she's a bad person, for example. She gets sympathy for her position more than anything. Sure, sympathy isn't a form of praise, but it's better than an insult. People have made personal attacks on Sarah Palin for being a bad mother. That's not really fair, but Gov. Palin did put herself out there and has made her fair share of insulting comments about others.

Mostly, the Bristol Palin story has stirred up a lot of criticism of people perceived to be spokespeople for social conservatives, be they politicians or right-wing media pundits, for their hypocrisy in criticizing teen mothers generally and then giving Bristol Palin a pass. Which is not to say that they think Bristol doesn't deserve a pass but that the response to teen pregnancy should be consistent.

The Daily Show video at the address below (after the advertisement and at the 1:40 mark) shows Bill O'Reilly commenting on Bristol Palin's situation and then Jamie Lynn Spears'. The difference in his attitude toward the two families is the kind of thing that pisses so many people off.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

Re: On protesting too much...

Persia — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:50:00 -0000

I haven't seen any 'Bristol's babydaddy demands paternity test!' headlines like there was for Jamie Lynn, anon.

How are you going to reduce teenage pregnancy if no stigma or negatives are associated with it?

1. Make abortion easily available without parental signature.

2. Make contraception easily available without parental consent.

3. Teach teens what contraception is effective and how to properly use it.

Most of these have been proven to reduce teen pregnancy and even delay the age of initiating sex. But conservatives would rather look down their noses at people 'caught' fucking.

Re: On protesting too much...

eric k — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:24:49 -0000

Anon,

That is the fundamental point:

"So, in terms of making the best of a bad situation, she seems to have done everything right and maybe, just maybe, even if she is the daughter of a hated GOP fundamentalist, she deserves a fairly light amount of 'stigma' based on how she has handled her situation."

You have to look back and the whole series of posts by TNC, Ross and Rod. TNC's point all along was judge each situation on how those individual people are handling it, he said: I want to punish and reward behaviors, not whether someone has a piece of paper that says they are married, unmarried people who stay involved with the kid are better than married people who neglect their kids and so on, it is Ross and Rod who are saying that single mothers in general need to ne stigmatized.

Re: On protesting too much...

Anon — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:10:44 -0000

Well, she stayed in school, did not drop out and is allegedly engaged to the father of her baby who she says is involved with the child and has moved back home to take advantage of her family's help in raising the child and she straightforwardly says it was a mistake, hard and she wishes it didn't happen the way it did.

So, in terms of making the best of a bad situation, she seems to have done everything right and maybe, just maybe, even if she is the daughter of a hated GOP fundamentalist, she deserves a fairly light amount of 'stigma' based on how she has handled her situation.

I also think she has been treated MUCH more harshly by the media than Jamie Lynn Spears.

Re: On protesting too much...

CitizenE — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:10:00 -0000

Anon

I'll start with Bristol Palin. Let's say she's 20, married, and pregnant. Her husband is her high school sweetheart, the former hockey star, who has a promising career in the oil industry that was facilitated by his father in law's connections. Does her story get the kind of attention it did. That's why I say Bristol Palin is already stigmatized; otherwise, she's just one of a former VP candidate's kids--the one with the least weirded out name.

Stigmatizing someone--calling them bad--when often unlucky might be a better adjective--does not help things out. What's more, just say no to sex seems to have an age old problem in effectiveness as birth control, for which no amount of running your index fingers across one another can answer.

I don't agree that being a teenage mother makes someone bad. That's the point. Now it certainly is difficult and puts stresses on the individual, her family, society, but part of the equation here is that it does take two to make a baby, and that part of the equation is repeatedly left out of the what is to be done equation. We have an entire society and consumer economy that valorizes sex for every reason under the sun--pointing the finger at one segment of society as the source of our problems...well as I have said above many talk, but few really walk the walk.

Re: On protesting too much...

sk — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:57:58 -0000

Anon,

I agree with Stacy. You really are talking about a different topic. The issue brought up in this post is that criticizing some unwed parents (Jamie Lynne Spears, those who are "like" the Coates family) while being supportive of others (Bristol Palin) is hypocritical. The question is not whether or not what you are calling the conservative worldview is internally consistent (that one can discourage out-of-wedlock teenage pregnancy while supporting single teenage parents). You argue that we must stigmatize teenage pregnancy yet support those who become teenage parents -- "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of thinking. But what has happened is that some parents (Jamie Lynne Spears, etc.) bear the brunt of the effort to stigmatize, but others (Bristol Palin) enjoy the benefits of communal forgiveness and support. There's an obvious discrepancy there that makes many people question the motives of social conservatives.

Re: On protesting too much...

Anon — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:46:20 -0000

I disagree that there is any significant stigma associated with being a single parent today. And surprise, surprise as the stigma of unwed motherhood receded the incidence of unwed motherhood has steadily increased.

So, if mostly everyone agrees that being a single, teenage parent is bad, increases the chances for negative outcomes across the board, unless your mother is a state governor or you are a celebrity, then what is so wrong with attaching a negative consequnce to a behavior that overwhelmingly has negative consequences?

People react to positive or negative stimuli..since the positives of getting married are a little ephemeral for a teenagers, I suggest that the negative side is more useful and more likely to be effective.

Re: On protesting too much...

CitizenE — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:23:50 -0000

First of all, Anon, the stigmas exist and that does not seem to solve the problems that are associated with broken homes, dysfunctional families, teenage pregnancy, et al.

All those problems are exacerbated by moral posturing that fly in the face of real experience combined with institutionalized bromides. In this particular case we could point out that abstinence only education has been an abysmal failure in remedying teenage birth or promoting success among teen mothers in every rubric imaginable. This really is about how the social conservative "world view" gets away with both making the problem worse and looking its collective nose down at those who don't follow their formulas for morality as a bait and switch that reflects either tunnel vision of tragic proportions in some cases or a smug, destructive arrogance in others, and a tribal identity politics in its hypocrisy.

Re: On protesting too much...

bread & roses — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:56:44 -0000

Anon: to me, stigmatizing people IS treating people poorly.

It's awfully hard for me to see how your project of stigmatizing out-of-wedlock births is going to happen without stigmatizing A. the mother B. the child or C. both of them. And stigmatizing people is treating individuals poorly.

Re: On protesting too much...

bread & roses — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:47:22 -0000

Rufus, you're right, I wasn't talking about the people on this thread, I was talking about "my liberal friends"- which makes it off-topic. But Tessa heard some of the same stuff, and explains where the mocking came from. In response to that, I'd like to quote Curtis:

It is satisfying, in its way, I guess, but it doesn't advance the conversation any more when we do it than when they do it.

Re: On protesting too much...

CitizenE — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:37:59 -0000

So easy to get misconstrued in these posts; makes me feel for TN. So I'll say it as plainly as I can: I think TN is absolutely correct in calling out these right wing social values folks for their screaming insidious hypocrisy. I think most folks on this thread have little desire to scapegoat Bristol Palin here. I am in complete agreement with those, TN above all, who are sticking it those wolves who like to prance around in sheep's clothing, who put their weak sauce on for the gander, and say screw the goose, who wish to scapegoat easy targets for social ills which they have now spent decades institutionalizing. I just like to bring in the human side of the equation when I rant.

Re: On protesting too much...

Stacy — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:36:57 -0000

"How are you going to reduce teenage pregnancy if no stigma or negatives are associated with it?"

How can you stigmatize teenage pregnancy by remaining hush when it happens to your candidate's daughter? You can't. So when you try to do so later, you are a hypocrite.

Re: On protesting too much...

Anon — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:32:10 -0000

How are you going to reduce teenage pregnancy if no stigma or negatives are associated with it?

Why does believing that teenage pregnancy is bad and that it should be actively discouraged have to mean that individual unwed mothers should be treated poorly in order not to be a hypocrit?

I disagree on this and my opinion is that the belief that conservatives are hypocritcal on this issue is rooted in a misunderstanding of their worldview.

Re: On protesting too much...

Sporcupine — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:31:43 -0000

TNC,

"Sanctimonious fucks" really does leap off the page. It's a noun aimed at live people, rather than an adverb, and that makes it explosive. It hasn't lost the ability to shock, to make me think, to make me notice that people actually have been talking about your family, right in your face all week. I admire your restraint earlier and your swift demonstration here its (verbal) limits.

"This is real talk, for real families out there on the frontlines, doing the real hard work of child-rearing. These people want to balance your books, but they're steady bouncing checks the whole way." That is just so damn good.

Re: On protesting too much...

Stacy — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:26:25 -0000

Yes, you've been incredibly unsuccessful with that. You're not even talking about the same thing. You're talking about birth control v. abstinence. That's not the discussion here.

"Really, you're still confused on this. TNC is not demonizing conservatives because they supported an unwed mother that happened to be the daugher of Sarah Palin. He's demonizing them for not extending that same courtesy to ALL unwed mothers. Instead, they insist we need to stigmatize them. You still haven't addressed this hypocrisy."

We on the same page now?