The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

echox1 — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:35:31 -0000

Y'all make an excellent choir, so I'll keep preachin'. The question we have to ask ourselves is how do we reach the knuckleheads who are wasting their lives on corners? I am a NERD, I was the guy those on the corners made fun of. 25 years later, I'm successful by every material and spiritual measure I want to use. But they are still on the corner and now their kids are there too. I go back, when I can, and provide the role model for those kids.

But I start at home--my kids read more books about more topics than 99% of their peers. I read more books about more topics than 99% of my peers. But the question remains: how do we transform that #$%$%$ corner? I'm willing to take the long view, Malcolm's "each one, teach one" philosophy, but I'm afraid we're slowly running out of "ones". I'm one and I'm banking all of you are same, but can we slow the pace of change or are we past "tipping point"? If we are, do we save who we can and bail on the rest? Or do we "go down swingin'?"

Peace to all, great discussion, E.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

albatross — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:26 -0000

Right. And yet, there are some problems (like HIV/AIDS infection rates) that can't really be fixed by any amount of support or consent by heterosexuals, but can only be helped by changes of behavior in the community. Similarly, while the support of substantial numbers of whites was necessary to get rid of Jim Crow laws and segregated schools and all kinds of related stuff, that support is not really relevant for dealing with the much higher illegitimacy rates among blacks, or higher crime rates, or higher rates of dropping out of school.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:10:11 -0000

Thanks, m'am.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

anna perez — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:59:14 -0000

Gangster films built Warner Bros.Studios in the 1930's. The first time I saw a drive-by shooting was the opening credits of "The Untouchables" tv series. Most of the really successful White actresses in the last 80 years, have had a career making role as a prostitute or "fallen woman"(see "Waterloo Bridge", "Butterfield 8" "Pretty Woman" et al.) Brucd's I wasn't there, but I do trust you.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

kekemen — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:08:13 -0000

I just caught this, this is hysterical. "Sex? Never heard of it." LOL!!!

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:04:17 -0000

T. Thomas Fortune. How could I forget...

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

albatross — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:57:22 -0000

No, we get hand-wringing columns and commentaries asking why the White community is so pathological after some moderately prominent white guy goes on a racist rant in front of a camera.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

BreakerBaker — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:54:59 -0000

I think it’s probably important in the context of this discussion to point out that there is no “white community.” While it’s obviously often erroneous to treat African Americans as a socio-political monolith, there is a black community: a history of racial stigmatization and oppression, necessitated it. In order to find parallels to what you describe in White America, you’d probably need to do a more focused study. In some ways, African Americans are like white immigrant populations that hold tight to a sort of hereditary-based nationalism for generations after immigrating. Ask an Italian about Tony Soprano, for example.

Still, I really didn’t mean to totally detract from your point. I do understand what you’re talking about. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that a lot of white Americans misunderstand the concept of racial identity and community. White people, for better or worse, prefer not to think of things in terms of their on racial identity. This is not to say that white people don’t, generally speaking, display a ton of ethnocentrism. We do. But it tends to be one of ignorance. One that generally is not considered. It’s a sort of bias of normality, i.e. white people think of themselves as being the symbol of what is normal and average. I suppose one could easily make the argument that this bias towards white as normal is the more palatable progeny of white supremacism, but it doesn’t think of itself that way. It simply says it is normal to be like me. It is abnormal to be different. It doesn’t even necessarily consider this a qualitative judgment.

So, if you’re getting these stupid questions from white people, it’s probably coming from this place where white people just don’t get it. They have no frame of reference with regard to racial identity, and they’re trying clumsily to understand. This doesn’t make it any better, I know.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

DRW — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:46:38 -0000

And who is the link between Booker T. and Marcus Garvey? Why, it's the long-forgotten and under-appreciated "dean of black journalists": T. Thomas Fortune.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:39:56 -0000

My poinit, incidentally, wasn't that the NOI wasn't foundationally wack...it was that the media ntentionally blow the thing itself out of proportion and cherry-picked their own version of what it is and why it's significant or interesting in order to serve the purposes of a pre-fab narrative that is exploitative of the phenomenon. I've always thought of the NOI as an anomolous faction of the Religious Right (although obviously not embraced by the RR "mainstream".) The Mormon Church is also a very close analog to the NOI in many respects - they are the two "great" Made In USA theologies that are, frankly, ludicrous when you examine their precepts and origins disspassionately. Probably no crazier than most religions in their original packaging, but they lack the thousands of years of immersion in history and culture that give the older versions more apparent legitimacy.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:31:04 -0000

The Nation of Islam is as American as Cherry Pie...

(They've got the pie recipe wrong.)

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

dmf — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:25:13 -0000

No I'm with you a 100% here, which is why I keep referring back to the haunting spirit of Manifest Destiny. This kind of "with God(by any name) on our side", chosen people/nation, sh*t always need to be called out as the corrupting poison that it is. You can see why I was always popular with my Zionist peeps. So it goes.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:15:21 -0000

Even that takes us to a core of things--not much distance between American Exceptionalism and Black Exceptionalism. Not to minimize racism--but I just thought that it was worth making the point.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

dmf — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:01:51 -0000

we may be heading off into retreaded ground here but I have heard Farrahkhan. and several of his leading spokespeople, and his message isn't simply one of self-dependence but rather one of racial superiority. And this is a central teaching of the NOI, and part of why Malcolm was killed and why his son converted to Islam, the kind that doesn't teach about evil Wizards blowing up the moon with dynomite. You don't have to cherry-pick anything when you are being served up "I can't even say the word jewelry without saying Jew". nuff said.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:38:53 -0000

You know, it's "interesting" how the press would always cherry-pick the Farrakhan speech for some "inappropriate" shit that he said about white folks, or more likely Jews, than printing headlines to the effect: "Farrakahn to Blacks: Two Hours of 'No More Excuses!'" Because...uh...you know...nobody would have given a shit and Farrakhan wouldn't have become such a great figure for the media to steadily milk for sensationalistic non-news.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

kekemen — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:31:46 -0000

I don't know that that sense is rational. I don't think it makes policy. But we have a strong need to believe that we don't have to wait on policy reform (read: the consent of white folks) for change. That if we just change how eat, how we raise our kids, our study-habits, how we talk to each other, then everything will be OK. I feel like that all the time. It is the religious part of me.

I agree 100%. A couple of years back, I had a discussion about this this very drive with a close friend of mine, and he completely disagreed. Resisted really really hard, to every single thing you listed here: food habits, study habits, communication habits, etc. I tried to contend that these all informed one's overall approach and interaction to life, which in turn MAY improve one's situation, but he was of the belief that trying to change these things was mostly a fruitless exercise, and that improvement could only come with money. And while the economy was still really good, I'd often get laughed at for feeling the way I did. Is this something anyone else has come across in trying to discuss this sentiment?

There's another side to this too I think - that sometimes it's psychologically easier to get help from institutions and policies and strangers, that have rules and lists and deadlines, than trying to grow or seek that help from within a community. I think a big part of resistance to this kind of self-improvement is the fact that often times it involves a kind of going back home - and when home is too painful a place to return to for whatever reason, people end up in an in-between space, floating, not really part of any social safety net, and sometimes at the mercy of financial/governmental/civilian institutions, which may or may not be there to pick up the slack.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:27:45 -0000

You know, before black people became the dominant political class because they made a lot of noise in the 1960s there was no romanticization of criminals or violence in America, there were no dreams of easy money, no "something for nothing" and no lazy fucks who didn't pull their own weight. Everybody did their homework. Nobody hung out on street corners, smoked cigarettes or drank alcohol. Drugs were something you got from doctors. Sex ? Never heard of it. Nor were there religious movements that preached salvation from a corrupt secular culture. There was no petty reduction into "nationalism" as the key to a worldview, nor were there special privileges or networks of "connections" based on the political and economic power of certain ethnic groups. These were (so called) African-American innovations in a pristine landscape of fragile innocence. I remember that. I was there. I'm an old white guy. Trust me. Trust the fuck out of me. It's your only hope for truly understanding shit.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

M.C. — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:19:33 -0000

Just out of curiosity, is there an identifiable black Catholic take on conservatism and self-reliance? All the discussion here about Christian influences seems to be drawing on an explicitly Protestant form of Christianity. What about Catholic parishes and Catholic schools? A high percentage of the black professionals I know came up through urban Catholic schools. As did Sonia Sotomayor.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

M.C. — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:13:56 -0000

I submit that most of the country will agree about Wall Street. And you'll get me on board over the Senate if you include the House of Representatives as well.

Let's toss in the folks who design cars for GM and Chrysler as well.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Doctor Jay — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:09:49 -0000

In the film O Brother, Where Art Though, there is a scene where folks are being baptized in the river, to the sounds of Alison Krause singing "Down to the River to Pray." The music strikes me as having deep integrated roots, as most American music does, but the scene is lily-white. All Americans recognize what this scene represents, renewal, reform, moral uplift. So why haven't I seen any films with the black counterpart to this. It seems such a rich area to explore.

To me, the Million Man March draws from the same traditions as tent meetings. And in this they are all heirs to John Wesley, who is English, not American, but tent meetings, revivalism, this is so very much part of America, black or white, but I've never seen much of the black part in fiction.

Steve Martin portrayed a faith healer in Leap of Faith. It's really good, I recommend it. His choir was black, a gospel choir. We white folks love gospel choirs. But where's the black preachers in our fiction? I guess we don't like them so much.

Now that I think on it, I can think of one reference: Samuel L. Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction. Not specifically a preacher, but definitely concerned with redemption and moral reform. With Bible quotations, too.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:08:22 -0000

God - I wish Farrakhan HAD been running things in Oakland. I'm no particular fan, but there is no comparison between Farrakhan in his more recent iterations and they way that Bey mess ended up here. But, yeah, Farrakhan is pretty much the face of NOI in national media and the mind of most casual observers. And I doubt many white people in Oakland watched Bey's local TV show or knew much about him - other than the quite popular pies - until Chauncey Bailey and some others started to dig into his crazy shit.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Jonathan — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:06:54 -0000

Oh, I totally agree. Bey was a unique case, to say the least. His movement in Oakland was of a strength beyond what was expected of most local chapters though, and I believe he had problems with the upper echelons of the NOI behind that.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:06:22 -0000

Gonna post the vid later but it's like that Chris Rock line--I love black people, but I hate niggers. Boy I wish they'd let me join the Ku Klux Klan. I'd do a drive-by from here to Brooklyn.

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

TCal — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:06:03 -0000

I totally understand. I didn't mean to imply that you did with my comment. I had very lazy reading and posting this morning. You and Jonathan kept me honest. It's the only way to go!

Re: Obama, Cosbyism and Black Nationalism

rikyrah — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:59:09 -0000

It's interesting that you have a local frame of reference. I contend for most folks, the face of The Nation is Farrakhan, no matter who is running things in their respective cities.