The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Not so left after all...

Re: Not so left after all...

JOhn — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:09:53 -0000

I think what you're saying is that, because of the profoundly irrational 43rd president, you've become a single issue voter: namely, you will vote for the candidate who has the strongest connection to the objective world.

This vote transcends policy, philosophy etc. Why is this? Because at this point, being progressive means simply understanding that there is a factual basis upon which decisions can be made, and that ideology is for the most part unhelpful. The left was driven here by the last 20 years of theocratic governing by the right.

So I would encourage everyone to VOTE RATIONAL. Because, let's be honest, if you don't vote for a rational candidate, does it really matter what their ideology is? It won't be executed in an intelligent and proper manner anyway.

Re: Not so left after all...

Jim — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:48:40 -0000

I'm right (or is that left?) with Chris Mealy and Eddy here.

If you read Krugman's book and you're about my age (i.e., the President-elect's age) you'll realize that the parallels with FDR are amazing. When I was a kid, the Democrats were the power and the Republicans were for the most part just a moderate opposition party. Then things began to fall apart and Reagan came in and made Goldwater's dream come true.

For those of us who consider ourselves progressive or liberal, it's been very frustrating. I signed up on day 1 for Obama's campaign because he rightly saw that the way to bring things back to the way they should be, that is a society that is for the good of the greatest number, we need to focus on policies that actually benefit the greatest number.

But you don't get there by some test of ideological purity, but rather, as TNC says, by making shit work.

One way to do that is most definitely to co-opt a significant number of the opposition (or at least those who are not blindly against you), as well as bringing in the most competent team you can muster. Obama shows all signs of doing this, or rather continuing to do this.

Now watch when the right starts to scream when the new administration attempts to institute a universal health care system because that is going to seriously f%ck up their ideology when another government program (like SS, medicare, the interstate highway system, ...) actually solves people's problems.

Of course, I am sure that I will disagree, perhaps passionately, with President Obama at some point, but I have no doubt that he is very much a game changer, and much moreso than a President Rodham Clinton would have been at least from a realignment of political forces perspective. On the sexism front of course, we still have a lot of progress to make.

Them's my two cents, I hope no one will want to smite me. ;-)

Re: Not so left after all...

Persia — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:06:53 -0000

What does this mean: "Clinton's defensive liberal crouch"?

I get why you supported Obama. What I'd like to know more about is why you didn't "trust" Clinton. Was it personality? Was she too partisan? (Because this is why I liked her.) I'm just curious.

Not to speak for another, but when I read 'defensive crouch' I immediately thought of her stance on her Iraq war vote. She couldn't or wouldn't admit she was wrong, she didn't own up to not having done her homework, and the whole thing lived in some kind of weird place where she could neither own nor repudiate it. And she took, IMO, similar stances on similar issues. After eight years of a President who cannot say 'I was wrong' that was especially galling from a Democratic Presidential candidate.

Re: Not so left after all...

KathyF — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:47:17 -0000

"I won't ever know the most intricate details of government policy, and smite me should I ever write like I do."

This is why I read this blog. The others, I want to smite sometimes.

Re: Not so left after all...

NoahB — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:59:08 -0000

Obama's kind of a party hack. And he's incredibly egotistical. And he's not somebody to stick his neck out for his ideals on a regular basis.

He's also intelligent, and flexible, and appears to be good at getting stuff done. And he's ideologically mildly progressive. And all I really wanted, when I voted for him, was somebody in office who was marginally less likely to bomb Iran than John McCain.

I think he'll probably be a good President. I think he may be a great President. If you're a progressive and thought he was a fellow traveller, you were deluding yourself. If you're a progressive and you're going apeshit already, you need to take a deep breath. He'll have plenty of time to disappoint you once he starts governing. He may even do some good things. It's awfully hard to tell until he's actually President, though.

Re: Not so left after all...

sv — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:33:02 -0000

Well, the Dude.... he's the man for his time and place. He fits right in there.

Re: Not so left after all...

sv — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:30:53 -0000

It's not weird AT ALL to say Obama represents your family values. He represents regular family values more than those who co-opted that phrase in politics during the 90's. I come from a conservative family (in the general sense of the word) and his rise and story are just exactly that. Work hard and be honest and optimistic and think hard and genuinely respect others. Play fair, and like, study for the love of learning, not for the damn grades. (hehe, but get good grades.)

This is what family values, or as my mother calls them, 'human values,' have always looked like. I don't want to jump on the Obama worship train, but I do believe he is a decent person who won while - in fact partially BY - repudiating the despicable identity politics of the past twenty, thirty, forty years. He's totally a regular dude in my eyes, a guy I and everyone I know would have a beer with or chitchat with after mowing our lawns or play a pick-up game with or whatever, whatever it is.

America, and I say this cautiously, and this isn't predicated upon Obama becoming the new Jesus or on him fucking up royally or not - you are slowly getting off crazy pills, it is normal to actually be normal instead of an eerie Orwellian simulacrum of normality. (Fuck you, Warren G. Harding, like you knew normalcy actually was in the dictionary.)

Re: Not so left after all...

TKOEd — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:57:21 -0000

@chrismealy "you'll find he's been talking about the same three issues for the last year: getting out of Iraq, getting real about energy and climate, and health care. Those are three big liberal projects, and the Republicans are against all three."

EXACTLY!

I'm probably to Obama's left but I keep reading Open Left & wondering what the fuck is going on over there. You can not & will not get everything you want in one person. These three issues matter a lot. Let's start with them & go from there. Like someone else in this thread said, if Obama is successful America will move to the left automatically, because the big things he wants to get done are VERY progressive.

Re: Not so left after all...

BubbaDave — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:56:48 -0000

The only good thing about 8 years of Dubya is that it's made it clear-- making shit work IS liberal policy at this point. I mean, the man is talking about raising taxes on the rich, universal health care, a half-trillion-dollar infrastructure/stimulus package, and cap-and-trade carbon emissions reduction. That was a Dennis Kucinich pipe dream in 2004! Why is it cautious centrism now? Not because the ideas have changed, but because the last four years have made it abundantly obvious that "conservative solutions" is an oxymoron. So Obama doesn't get credit for liberal ideas because now they're obviously correct?

Obama may be motivated more by technocratic caution than by progressive idealism; I can't say where his ideas come from. But that's not what matters-- what matters is that he's advocating the right ideas, eloquently and forcefully, and he has the political muscle to make them realities. You can call him liberal, or centrist, or a pottery muskrat; as long as I get my universal health insurance the label is less important than the product.

Re: Not so left after all...

Redstar — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:03:55 -0000

What does this mean: "Clinton's defensive liberal crouch"?

I get why you supported Obama. What I'd like to know more about is why you didn't "trust" Clinton. Was it personality? Was she too partisan? (Because this is why I liked her.) I'm just curious.

I agree w/many here that she might have governed from a similar policy standpoint as Obama, but would have been a more polarizing person, given she's a Clinton. But I'd like to understand better your thoughts on her; this post is interesting, but it'd be cool to understand you liking Obama in a more detailed context compared to his competitors.

Re: Not so left after all...

rikyrah — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:47:08 -0000

I DO believe Shrub will be called the worst President EVER.

I had to LOL when I read the quote someone posted from the Economist, sighing with relief that 'competence had returned'.

It's sad that mere competence would make people this happy. But, YES, it's been that ##($ed up.

Re: Not so left after all...

Watson — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:41:52 -0000

I share the positive feelings about BHO. I think that he’s a hundred times better than Clinton, and a million times better than Bush. Nevertheless there remains the fundamental question of economic policy.

Obama may or may not have been the ‘most liberal member of Congress’, but the terms ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ in our political lexicon refer to liberal and conservative capitalists. And our reigning economic theory, courtesy of Reagan-Greenspan-Clinton-Rubin-Summers-Bush, holds that the best capitalism features maximum privatization and de-regulation. (Although in practice, capitalism has always provided a socialist safety net for the rich -- witness the Paulson-Bernanke trillion-dollar no-questions-asked giveaways.)

Obama’s impressive electoral mandate, which he earned by campaigning as an inclusive, moderate-liberal capitalist, coincides with an authentic economic crisis. Our current economic situation obviously requires government solutions that overlap with what’s been known as socialism.

Obama has been at pains to stress that he is not a socialist. What will he do? Is he inclined to break out of the ideological straitjacket? More socialism for the rich? Or for everyone this time?

Re: Not so left after all...

Charlie — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:58:39 -0000

The whole "where do these people fall on the ideological spectrum within the Democratic party" question has always struck me as rather silly. So too, in fact, has the fact that we on the left allowed the Republican party to make liberalism a bad word -- fleeing to the term "progressive" rather than say "hell yeah I'm a liberal, liberals gave us. . ." the way President Bartlett did on West Wing.

The argument among ourselves also only reinforces the tendency of the MSM to argue that Obama's appointments, which may be centrist in terms of Democratic party politics, are thus "center-right" and that we remain a center-right nation. It's patent nonsense, and we only contribute to it with our own debate (not to say that the debate shouldn't happen, only that sometimes such debates can have unintended consequences).

In terms of where a President Obama will land on the ideological spectrum, my answer is that no matter how "centrist" his appointments may be, only two things matter: 1) his marching orders and 2) that all these folks share a vision of how America -- and the world -- works that is way, way, WAY to the left of the Bush team.

And in the end, those are the things that will matter, not whether Tom Daschle is more centrist than Howard Dean.

In terms of foreign policy, where Obama also is favoring centrists, this is what I said on my own blog, Undiplomatic:

"[A]n Obama administration is likely to pursue a foreign policy based on sound strategic principles and coherent tactics. Realism should trump ideology, and principles should trump interests. Call it pragmatic idealism, if you must apply a label."

The man in realistic, and given the surrealism of the past eight years, that may be the most reassuring fact of all.

I've cross-posted this over at my blog as well (link above)

Re: Not so left after all...

muzz al atesta — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:54:23 -0000

centrism is the new black

Re: Not so left after all...

ReggieH — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:50:22 -0000

Some of us tried to tell our more Left-leaning friends 'don't believe the Republican hype' when it came to Obama. IMHO he's always been more Centrist than a 'true Liberal' or 'real Progressive.' However, like others have said, I want the government to actually display some competence and work properly. That will be quite a bit of "Change" after the last 8 years. And if he launches a massive public works program, gets us out of Iraq (but not into a different form of quagmire in Afghanistan), and provides Universal Health Care, I won't care what political label he wears.

Also, recognize that, since Reagan, anything to the left of the Editorial Page of the Wall Street Journal has been considered "liberal" or "Radical." IMHO anything he and his administration can do to bring the country BACK TO the center, and cooling off the rabid tendencies of our recent political discourse would be major achievements.

Re: Not so left after all...

Doug — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:38:50 -0000

You are right that policy is not the major factor in Obama’s victory. As a Canadian watching the U.S. election with a great deal of interest, I was very impressed with his thoughtfulness – especially in contrast to the complete foolishness of the past eight years of the White House.

In my mind, leadership is not just about the policies you have, but also about the way you lead. I’ve had bosses who are open to new ideas, constructive criticism and disagreement at the management table. The discussions and debate result in a better plan, including one that has truly examined all the options. I’ve also had bosses who make decisions in a vacuum, where dissent is forbidden and absolute submission is necessary. I got fired by someone like the latter, and have felt good about that moment ever since.

Obama’s early decisions are about building a team of smart people, who will bring different opinions and information to the debate. It’s a good sign that he isn’t signing up a bunch of Yes-men. Of course, once the initial decision is made, everyone needs to work to make it successful. The other aspect is that he will change course it the original decision isn’t made.

I’ll make a reference to another of your favorite topics – football – in comparison. Bill Belichek (for the record, I’m not a Pats fan) is successful because he values smart people, and is willing to change how they play the game. The Patriots have been winning in many different ways – power running game, with a great defense, vs. the Brady-Moss air show last year. He figures out what works with the resources he has. He has been successful because he has been willing to make changes.

Belichek is in stark contrast to Al Davis and the Raiders (I'm a fan, but have had a hard time lately). Davis doesn’t appear to want anyone around who might be able to be given credit for any success the organization might have. I don’t know if he has always been this way, but the past decade or so has marked by his ego getting in the way of making necessary changes in the organization and philosophy. Davis only wants people around who confirm his own brilliance, rather than challenge him to be better.

Obama is not threatened by other people who are smart and knowledgeable. People who disagree with him on policy and decisions will not be seen as threats, but rather as valuable assets who force everyone around them to thoroughly examine an issue before making a decision. It’s not about ideology – it’s about what works.

Re: Not so left after all...

Alyson Miers — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:34:52 -0000

Jordan,

I've been thinking for a while now that Obama's cabinet picks should be called a "team of competents."

Re: Not so left after all...

Jamie — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:31:43 -0000

I think we are at exactly the same place on this.

I was for Barack because he had his stuff together, because he was willing to learn and grow (watch clips of him in debates with Hillary and then watch him trounce McCain...he's gotten better and better during the last two years and I have no reason to think he isn't going to get better and better and more Presidential during the next two years), and because he seems like the kind of center-left moderate liberal who I don't agree with 100% but who might actually be able to get stuff done. Barack supported the Supreme Court striking down the D.C. handgun ban. I thought "I'm not with that, but ya know, that's the kind of guy who isn't going to get sidetracked or sucked into the 'culture wars.' The more they try to brand this guy a radical, the sillier they'll look. And I don't think he's posturing. He really seems to be that guy."

It's not the time for us to try to pull off some kind of political "realignment." It's the time for us to be pragmatic and fix what's broken. If Barack is successful, Republicanism will be so thoroughly discredited that we'll get that realignment anyway. Want to live in a center-left country? Be thankful you've just elected a moderate Democrat who has his sh*t together.

That press conference yesterday was a typically stunning performance. To use another cliche, it really does feel like the grownups are in charge again. So far, so good.

And thanks for that picture of Michelle. I'm with you on that too. I got a little teary even before I scrolled down to see what you were going to say about it. BTW, I'm a white guy. It's not just you.

Re: Not so left after all...

Stax — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:24:34 -0000

I don't understand the recent comments from those left-of-center liberals regarding Obama's post-election decision making any more than I understand those critics on the right who were painting Obama as a socialist in the weeks running up to the election.

Did these people even bother to read Obama's books? Why anybody would be surprised that Obama is anything other than a died-in-the-wool centerist is beyond me.

Re: Not so left after all...

Kristen — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:19:03 -0000

Well said, TNC...As always your thinking is much in line with mine, but you state it far more eloquently than I do. (Or perhaps I'm just too lazy to do so on my own blog) I haven't visited a lot of the 'progressive blogs' that I frequented often during the campaign because I just don't have the stomach to listen to the whining of the Left. It's just as bad as the groveling and the blame-games of the Right, right now. Throughout this entire year, I told my friends and family that I really believed Obama would turn out to be a pragmatic, carefully moderate President -- despite all the claims of him being "the Most. Liberal. Senator. EVER." or whatever. He's proving to be just what I thought he'd be. And you know what? That's what we need. We need a President that actually THINKS before being a "decider." I want reason mixed with compassion. I don't care about right and left -- I care about right and wrong. And of all of the candidates we had to chose from in this campaign, I felt Obama was the best to weigh those options. I can't know for sure if I was right about that until I see the decisions played out, but as of now -- I'm OK with my choice.

Re: Not so left after all...

Gee Dub — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:18:06 -0000

The man said....and I'm paraphrasing. ...Its not a choice between bigger government and smaller government. We need smart government. I heard him.

Re: Not so left after all...

DB Cooper — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:58:03 -0000

Amen.

As far as I'm concerned, if Obama is getting bitched at by both the far right and left, he's doing just fine.

Re: Not so left after all...

Chuchundra — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:35:05 -0000

My thinking is that this is Obama's "fix the country and get myself re-elected" cabinet. Should he manage to do that, I expect that his 2013 cabinet will be somewhat more progressive and put together with an eye towards serious, long-term change.

Re: Not so left after all...

chrismealy — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:34:48 -0000

Google for "obama's priorities" and you'll find he's been talking about the same three issues for the last year: getting out of Iraq, getting real about energy and climate, and health care. Those are three big liberal projects, and the Republicans are against all three. Three weeks after the election he's still talking about those big three priorities. I don't think he's a liar.

That the man is turning some sell-out moderates into progressive soldiers is proof again that he's a jujutsu master. So I'm not worried about Obama and the progressive agenda. I'm worried about a bunch of dumb liberals feeding the villagers with a bullshit non-story.

Re: Not so left after all...

libraryan — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:31:50 -0000

No real hatred for "W" here either. I do think he was a willing puppet of Cheney and Addington and some of the other truly evil people that populated the administration. As for B.O., I think what most gave me hope was the Buddist nature he seems to embody. He is one cool cat who surrounded himself with a team of like minded people. If Hillary had won we would have had that wild bunch of people looking for arguments and disagreements just to whip up a little fun. Thank goodness they didn't win because serious times require serious people.