The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

filrabat — Wed, 06 May 2009 18:48:25 -0000

Good article, Ta-Nehisi!

Finally, someone who's VERY close to the target about what racism is all about - but, as a 41 Year Old Straight WASP (literally) who spent most of his first 34 years in the small town and small city Deep South, I have to say it's NOT QUITE on target - but you definitely approach it when you said.

Bigotry, in all forms, requires a shocking arrogance...it is the ultimate narcissism,

This is definitely on the right track. However, I think your explanation of why so many whites(nationally, not just in the South) preferred not to associate threatened by blacks and gays is much simpler - based on a few decades of experience around such people

Simple personal distaste for people that are outside the norm! Hardly any whites I went to school with were all that paranoid about black-white relationships, or felt threatened by them. I simply saw mentalities akin to "EWWWW, GROSSS" or "That's just LOW CLASS" than to paranoid fears. I say this as someone born went to high school and college in the 80s and 90s, and admittedly a bit racist back then - "soft core" racist, that is. NOT hard core ranting bigot fixated on them. Fortunately, I outgrew that mentality when I got to bigger cities and got exposed to many different kinds of people and many different ways of thinking.

MORE SPECIFICALLY about Racism as Narcissism, or at least the product of NON-narcissistic individuals brainwashed by a narcissistic culture:

Although I'm not educated in psychology in any formal way, I have read the DSM-IV criteria for the Cluster B" Personality Disorders (especially Narcissistic and Antisocial), and can't help but be struck by the similarities of the mentalities of Narcissists, Antisocials on one hand, and bigots on the other*

DSM-IV Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (think in terms of GROUP narcissism this time, rather than individual narcissism).

Does the culture Whites and/or Straights as a group tend to have these attitudes regarding Blacks and/or Gays as a group?

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance

2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status.

4. requires excessive admiration

5. has a sense of entitlement

6. is interpersonally exploitative

7. lacks empathy

8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Try the same technique with Antisocial Personality Disorder - particularly the part about "rationalizing or excusing causing hurt, pain, or damage to others". IMO, sounds like bigots to me.

*As a side note, I see airs of that same mentality who opposes tougher anti-Bullying laws in recent years, as in "Good Grief! That's gonna turn our kids into wimps". In this case, "wimps" are often looked upon with just as poisonous a scorn as gays were in the 80s and black were in the 50s and 60s. Perhaps attacking anti-wimp bigotry could be next on society's agenda. Strange and bizarre? No more so than the notion of gay rights and gay marriage was in the 40s and 50s - and look where we are today.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Kinowolf — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:28:11 -0000

I think the important difference is that it wasn't Coates's own joke. He was bringing up a specific piece of cultural production that addresses the issue at hand. That in and of itself is not an endorsement of its content. If anyone attempting to discuss an issue historically has to vouch for every aspect of a film, book, or song that relates to the topic, we'll find that our books and our essays will be very empty. We also run the risk of creating a censored category of "safe" material that narrows any discussion. I'm glad that Coates came out and noted the problematic nature of the skit, it's important that he do so, but we have to stop short of deciding what is and isn't appropriate in an historical discussion of a subject because very soon we won't be able to talk about anything in our past.

When using an example like this, I think the rule of thumb is to cite the author, describe when it was made, and discuss its content without personally excusing its failings. If you can take the time, maybe do a little analysis of the piece. I'd love to see a little something about the use of misogyny to deflect racism, which is a salient topic especially in the male-led 1960s and 70s POC movements. The reader can then make their judgements about the work, including its successes and failures.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Doctor Science — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 15:46:30 -0000

Doctor Science seems to confuse open-mindedness with approval of homosexuality.

Um, what? Or rather, how do you see that? I do not see how you came to that conclusion.

Your assumed equivalence between "liberals who think all Christians are bigots" and "conservative Christians who don't approve of homosexuality" is IMHO not an equivalence. Conservative Christians aren't just "disapproving", they're *making laws to control other people's families*. I am not saying anyone is a bigot in a defining, unchangable way -- but they're *acting* like bigots, and they're using as much power as they can get their hands on to enforce bigotted behavior.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Ken — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:49:28 -0000

BobN, no I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of bigots around who hide behind the Bible. I'm saying that it's as mistaken -- bigoted, if you will -- to assume most Christians fall into that camp as it is to assume most gays are libertines have a guilty conscience. Doctor Science seems to confuse open-mindedness with approval of homosexuality. First of all, that conveniently requires open-mindedness and tolerance of social conservatives but not liberals. Gays often rightly implore us to open our eyes and see them for the decent fellow human beings most of them are. They should extend the same charity, the same willingness to see from the other's perseepctive.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:46:24 -0000

@BobN

No, just sharing with you the possibility that some opposition towards gay marriage isn't about hatred.

I actually have no idea how many opponents of gay marriage are of the 'kind and compassionate' vs not. It just seems that the 'not' group seems to be more visible..

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:37:30 -0000

This is where my Christian (Catholic/Lutheran) upbringing has been helpful to me, in fact. I was raised to believe that everyone -- even a saint -- is a sinner, and that calling any person "good" or "bad" is inaccurate. You don't get to say, "I'm a good person, so I don't do bad things" -- no, it doesn't matter how good you are (or think you are), you'll still do bad things.

You can be a nice, kind person, and still be a bigot, or a racist.

True, but then is lumping everyone into a category as a bigot or a racist without understanding and compassion really solving anything? Jesus had compassion for everyone ..the sinners and the saints. Judge not less you be judged? That is what my faith taught me.

Here's the thing, I am not asking people to not call people for what they are. The sinner needs to look his sin in the face, own it and well..repent. It's all a part of the process that every human being has to experience. I am just asking that we be open-minded and compassionate during that process.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Doctor Science — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:23:07 -0000

At the same time I smarted at the idea that I could be a 'bigot' if I voted against gay marriage. ... Is it so inconceivable that there could be some real soul searching conflict going on?

The soul-searching conflict you (and others) have described seems to be entirely between your own conscience and the bigoted teachings of your religion. Yes, that is certainly a conflict, and a painful one. It is very difficult to realize that thinking of oneself as a good, open-minded person is not the same as actually *being* one, and that being a good person may involve making yourself uncomfortable.

This is where my Christian (Catholic/Lutheran) upbringing has been helpful to me, in fact. I was raised to believe that everyone -- even a saint -- is a sinner, and that calling any person "good" or "bad" is inaccurate. You don't get to say, "I'm a good person, so I don't do bad things" -- no, it doesn't matter how good you are (or think you are), you'll still do bad things.

You can be a nice, kind person, and still be a bigot, or a racist.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

BobSF_94117 — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:39:59 -0000

What percentage of evangelical opponents to gay people are of the "kind and compassionate" variety? And how many are not?

Surely, you're not suggesting that all opposition to us is without hatred.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Tonya — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:29:20 -0000

Wow.. this is such a hard issue.

As a Californian and a Christian and someone who believes herself to be open-minded, I agonized over Prop. 8.

I saw through the paranoia of the ads claiming homosexuality is going to be taught in schools, that gay marriage is going to change the institution of marriage, the 'If we allow gay marriage, will sodomy..etc, etc..be okay too?" stuff. It seemed a really ridiculous and an obvious ploy to play on our fears. At the same time I smarted at the idea that I could be a 'bigot' if I voted against gay marriage. Everyone is so comfortable with putting religious people in a box of paranoia and hatred. Is it so inconceivable that there could be some real soul searching conflict going on?

In a previous post, another person talked about their mother and how she feared black people. As a black woman, when I read that..I didn't feel any anger or hatred for her thinking. I felt for HER. Because she was raised to think in a way that is wrong. To fight against your belief system is the hardest thing to do. I have nothing but compassion for her and her struggle.

Yet, at the same time I don't condone behavior or actions that cause harm on in the name of one's belief system. This is what I have conflict with. Denying someone something that should be a civil right seems really wrong to me. Denying someone love and happiness seems really wrong to me. And so I am conflicted and really struggling with this issue right now.

TNC was really careful about not condemning a whole group of people by focusing on the 'bigots' or the 'paranoid'. And I am thankful that he has shared his thoughts with us so eloquently. However, I get the feeling that what is implied in this whole conversation is that those who are against gay marriage are bigots. End of story. Racists are just plain racists. End of story. Paranoid white men..are blah..blah..blah. End of story.

I would like to caution everyone to remember that each "story" is rarely complete. Nothing is black or white. I have said this before: I have a real and complete (and some might say naive) faith in humanity and our ability have understanding and forgiveness and love for one another- and our capacity for change. Some things just take time and patience and (ahem) lot's of prayer. ;)

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Ken — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:49:27 -0000

I find Andrew's thoughts very moving, but your own foul-mouthed response less so. I have shifted left over the years, and I now rejoice with gays whenever a state legalizes same-sex marriage. But I also grew up evangelical, and I know many, many people who hold the Biblical position on homosexuality. They are kind and compassionate people who take no pleasure in saying homosexuality is wrong, but who are only trying to be true to what they believe (and that includes in their own sex lives). The root of bigotry is unwillingness to identify with the other person enough to understand them.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Zach — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:23:34 -0000

I see your point and agree that bigotry requires a shocking level of arrogance and a belief that other communities deepest desires revolve around someone's destruction but I think you might be over simplifying it.

Gay marriage isn't just opposed by cowards, religious zealots and bigots. The broadening of the definition of "marriage" to mean between any two people does much more than just make all people equal or insult a sacred institution. I believe strongly in the traditional definition of marriage because of what it represents in my faith but the possibility my belief system might be insulted is not why I oppose gay "marriage." I am uneasy about broadening the definition of "marriage" because it implies a huge culture shift in which I will loose my ability to articulate what marriage means to my children and this is no little thing that can be distilled down to shocking arrogance or vanity.

In the postmodern culture we live in, very few things have absolute meaning. Father would no longer mean father. The word parents would no longer mean mother and father and even if it did mother and father will have lost their connotation. A fundamental shift in language with such large implications shouldn't be taken lightly, isn't simple bigotry, and should be openly opposed by those whom it affects.

I don't think gay people desiring to be married are thinking about me or plotting how they can infringe on my belief system but none the less I think it has huge implications for our culture that I don't agree with and I'm neither a bigot nor a coward.

It seems to me that the most controversial positions throughout history were the ones that went against the grain of culture. Everyone was talking "Do you want a nigra marrying yer daughter?!?!?" in the ante-bellum south then there was a culture shift and in the first half of the 20th century civil rights became more broadly accepted. You were considered a bigot to oppose either of those views, the only difference was the cultural wisdom of the time. It seems like now you are a bigot if you reject any egalitarian principles. I'm not OK being labeled a bigot or a coward but I can't suppress my own convictions to accommodate a culture shift simply because it's widely accepted or because it's the next step. Newer beliefs aren't better simply because they reject older beliefs.

That being said, your one of the few people I try and read everyday. Its the wry wit that attracts me.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

tricstmr — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 08:37:02 -0000

Tel,

I get your point about contamination and ick.. but two things..

1. I think you could actually distinguish between "ick" and "contamination" a bit more.. Contamination is a lot more than just "ick".. Contamination with diseases (real or imagined) generates fear (you want to flee or fight it) that and that can lead to bigotry.. "ick" on the other hand may be similar--but there are lots of "icky" things that have less to do with contamination and more to deal with things we find gross.. such as "old wrinkly bodies having sex" that don't generate fear so much but just make you want to look away. I admit that there are some grey areas here, but while I find the crud at the bottom of a sink when I do dishes (or something left in the fridge too long) to be "icky" it doesn't generate any fear in me...

2. Taking #1 into account.. I don't think it is the "ick" factor that some associate with gays or blacks or whomever is what drives the bigotry. To use a concrete example--my parents are boomers and they have a few gay friends. These friends do make my mom uncomfortable.. and I know for a fact it is the "ick" factor of, let's all say it loud, BUTT SEX! But despite my mom's ick factor, she makes due. She overcomes it quite easily when she needs to, even if she doesn't "understand the gay lifestyle" as she would put it.

Mom, however, also grew up in Indiana and was always somewhat of a racist.. not openly and not a lot, but always underlying... she made assumptions about blacks and said things implying their inferiority at times.. which she would crouch in terms like "black culture," which she didn't know at all and understood even less... and in these pronouncements (and in other actions) I could tell that it was fear that drove this racism... she found blacks threatening for some reason.. and that led to far stronger pronouncements against them then she ever had about gays..

Thus.. perhaps this is just my experience.. but I still think that fear is the key.. "ickiness" may come into the mix.. as an added "bonus".. but taboo's based on ick are rarely enough to generate full scale bigotry ...

For these reasons, I find it especially interesting to see who is terrified of gay marriage (and historically who was terrified of interracial marriage..) and it goes so way beyond "ick" in almost all cases... You may not want to witness an "icky gay marriage" but would you seriously spend millions and millions of dollars to change the laws to forbid it unless you felt really afraid of it? I doubt it and wonder what actually is generating the fear.. perhaps that gays and the way that they have not often managed but thrive in modernity--could even more completely undermine the "traditional mindset" of conservatives that want to take us back to the 50's?

it does make one wonder..

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Bartles — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 01:11:07 -0000

Wonderful post, Mr Coates! I've spent a week in the comboxes at Rod's site and there's NO chance of common ground there. Every couple of days, Rod just posts the same tired, open-ended "can't you just admit that MAYBE everything will fall apart?" trope. I think you nailed it: if we take that last step toward losing our abject terror of the gays, what's left? You've rejected ALL my ignorant faith-based biases! How will I remain morally superior if you stop being scared?

"In morals what begins in fear usually ends in wickedness; in religion what begins in fear usually ends in fanaticism. Fear, either as a principle or a motive, is the beginning of all evil."

Anna Jameson

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Proserpina — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:28:41 -0000

Arguably, that "ick" factor comes from irrational fear of old people, a bigotry pervasive in our culture. It would be interesting to know if cultures with less or no ageism have bias against these May-December relationships...

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Doctor Science — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:33:09 -0000

I can understand how same-sex marriage is a threat to Dreher's view of sexuality, because it IMHO *does* undermine the patriarchy. What I don't understand is the existential crisis, where for him SSM undermines the possibility of morality. Why is the very idea of right and wrong so tied up with traditional gender roles, that undercutting the latter makes the former collapse in smoking ruin?

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Doctor Science — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:18:52 -0000

Oh, I think this is absolutely true -- I assume that's what they mean when they say "SSM is a threat to my traditional marriage!" If marriage is between any two *people*, than any two people are truly equal, not some God- or anatomically-given Dom/sub relationship.

This is why IMHO same-sex marriage is a woman's rights issue.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

ST — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:30:40 -0000

Along similar lines, I've read that a significant unconscious aspect of opposition to gay marriage may be that it throws established sex roles in every marriage open to negotiation. This has been evolving for decades, of course, but this culture still has fairly defined roles for men and women in a marriage. If any two men or any two women could decide who's to be the provider, who's to be the caretaker, to what degree they share these burdens in a marriage, that really undermines any argument for the traditional roles in mixed-gender marriages.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Sorn — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:32:28 -0000

People are tempted to take shelter under any system that claims to be a total solution to everything in their lives, that'll exclude all threats and provide a solid identity. That always requires scapegoats and Others.

True enough, however, I would argue that Iconoclasts (image-breakers) are very seldom rewarded in any society. Most of us don't seek to re-evaluate our opinions we only seek confirmation of what we already believe. This tendency transcends ideology, and it doesn't just apply to what you call "neo-fascists" and fundamentalists but to everyone who seeks to shape the world to meet their expectations instead of shaping their expectations to meet the world. As progressive minded people I would argue that we have a responsibility to work for what we see is a better world while realizing that we have no right to impose a certain way of thinking on any group of people. A certain tragic sensibility is absolutely vital to an accurate understanding of the world.

I used to hang out with people who believed that the world would be a better place if we could just get rid of groups like the Westboro Baptist church. personally I don't think so, because it seems that one of the ways that people define concepts is in relation to the opposite value. In a sense it would be a shame if the world lost all of its intolerant people, because these people help us to set limits on our acceptable discourse. I don't condone bigotry but I think that the bigots help the rest of us to define and clarify our positions. After all, no one said that building consensus in a pluralistic society was easy.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

R. Bear — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:08:22 -0000

One thing that nobody has mentioned so far is the fact that the bigot who saw in school textbooks the first step toward interracial marriage was RIGHT.

The Civil Rights movement was the product of a Southern black bourgeoisie that had finally, gradually clawed its way up into social spheres that were once almost exclusively white. The attack on the arbitrary nature of skin-color discrimination didn't find its moment until, in some areas at least, it really WAS an arbitrary distinction for a large number of people, in the sense that it no longer served as a reliable shorthand for socioeconomic status. The textbooks that TNC's lawyer requested were the building blocks for that bourgeoisie; interracial marriage was one of the fruits of its particular and characteristic political movement.

So even though there is a pathological level of paranoia surrounding bigotry, we should remember that sometimes even paranoid have enemies. The best, most truthful response to the fear of interracial marriage would have been to DEFEND interracial marriage --- though of course that wouldn't have been politically expedient before Civil Rights.

Of course, there are also paranoids who don't have enemies --- tinfoil hat types. I think we should try to be more careful in differentiating between paranoids with enemies --- against whom we should defend our own ideas about what's good --- and paranoids without enemies --- whom we should offer a glass of warm milk and a frontal lobotomy.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Jess — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:59:09 -0000

....

eep. I never thought of that. Gak. The paranoid circles just get tighter and tighter...

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Doctor Science — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:41:43 -0000

Basically, TNH, I disagree.

The "spectre of interracial union" was a strong motivator for so long not because it was improbable, but because it was a reality of Southern society. (See: W. Faulkner, collected works.) White men (and women) were terrified of black emancipation because the rape of black women by white men was a given of the society. Of course the Golden Rule looked like an awful threat: "what you did shall be done to you in turn" is terrifying what what you've done is rape, abuse, and oppression.

A lot of straight-male homophobia (e.g. the "gay panic" defense) looks to me like a Golden Rule Threat, where what men fear is being thought of the way they think of women. Look at what Hob wrote above @2:23 -- he (and IMHO many straight men -- see: J. Apatow, collected works) can't imagine themselves as sexy, because that would mean ... what?

That you're an object, a thing, I guess. I don't know! I'm a woman, so it all seems incredibly frakked up and mysterious to me. Subtractive masculinity is the best explanation I've been able to come up with.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

RobM — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:57:00 -0000

Thanks Ta-Nehisi it finally works.

"Bigotry, in all forms, requires a shocking arrogance, a belief that other communities deepest desires revolve around your destruction. It is the ultimate narcissism, a way of thinking that can only see others, through a paranoid fear of what one might lose. The fears are almost always irrational."

My intial thought is this is dead on but on second thought it isn't because destruction is being held to the status of self. Destruction is more the warning from the Prince Chapter 17...but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony. Patrimony here refers to their economic circumstances, i.e. their income. Any threat against it is responded to by force. As you point out lynching declined as white men chose to send their women to work to support their families income. Marriage has become a susbsitute for income. The hatred is another person into the pool of labor diminishing his/her wages and privledges bought w/ it. In this case it is homosexuals having the privledge of income.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Jessica — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:52:45 -0000

I agree with Jess. It was disheartening to read that here, because you generally are so thoughtful about that kind of stuff. Anything that appears to condone the message of "men would only want to rape pretty women" is damaging because, like Jess said, it reinforces the idea that rape is a compliment and she was asking for it and probably liked it. Even though you were invoking it to make another really important point, I just don't feel it's ever justifiable. I'm not sure I understand Mr. Shrimp's argument saying that the joke demonstrates that rape isn't about physical attractiveness. I haven't seen the whole thing (couldn't find it on YouTube- anyone have a link?), but the part quoted here doesn't seem to challenge the meme of "not pretty enough to be raped."

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

brianrw — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:47:33 -0000

Do you want a nigra marrying yer daughter?!?!?"

Well, yeah actually. More Halle Berrys is fine with me. You have be one heckuva racist/bigot/whatever to be against more hot chicks.

Re: Nihilism And Gay Marriage

Darkrose — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:25:51 -0000

In much the same vein when I read people complaining that gay marriage is a threat to traditional marriage, I think, "Fool, these gay motherfuckers ain't thinking about your marriage. This ain't about you and your hang-ups."

I'd say that the best summation of it ever. Because yeah--I'm too busy making sure my own marriage stays healthy to give a fuck about some straight couple I don't know.