The Atlantic - Latest Comments in More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:21:39 -0000

Back at you kid :)

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Menelik — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:25:33 -0000

maybe im wrong to read your comments in such a way but this is what i responded to:

"It is no mistake that gangsta rap's rise to dominance in the 90s directly tracks with major label investment in hip-hop... the effects of the marriage are obvious."

then in order to elaborate on these said effects, you used the example of summer movies being dominated by action flicks.

"What is less profitable is cleared out for what's more profitable. Necessarily that requires less diversity of voice. This isn't confined to hip-hop--there a reason the summer blockbuster season is dominated by, say, big budget action movies"

Given your earlier comments, i assumed (and perhaps wrongly) you said this to demonstrate the analogous role of gangsta-rap in hip-hop to action movies in the summer movie season. If i have given your comparison a fair-minded reading then the analogy is not apt because the top hip-hop sellers are not and have not been dominated by gangsta-rap. just look at the top-sellers over any arbitrarily significant period within the last eighteen years. the top selling albums in rap are not chiefly gangsta-rap in the way your analogy states summer movies are dominated by action films. maybe i read too much in to this or have failed to do my argument justice, but in any case i digress.

much love/respect due

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:59:42 -0000

I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I never claimed that gangsta rap crowded out the rest of hip-hop. I made a very specific point--that the influence of corporate labels have narrowed the voice, and that a large part of what's left is gangsta rap. That doesn't mean that's all that left.

The point is very specific--that the late 80s to the early 90s represented a relatively brief moment of diversity in the art-form and that as time went on, that was less true. Citing artists from that period--like Vanilla Ice and Hammer--doesn't disprove that case. Nor does citing the Fugees, who last released a record in the mid-90s.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Menelik — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:12:35 -0000

"It happens with any art form that meets a better developed business model. What is less profitable is cleared out for what's more profitable. Necessarily that requires less diversity of voice."

"Sensationalism is an easy way to grab attention, and hopefully, record sales. It is no mistake that gangsta rap's rise to dominance in the 90s directly tracks with major label investment in hip-hop. Again, I don't begrudge big labels--they're doing what they do. But the effects of the marriage are obvious."

A simple google search (lest i be shown incorrect) will reveal the majority of top-seller hip-hop albums over the last eighteen years or of the 1990s or post 2000 are not in the gangsta-rap mode. These lists are dominated by a variety of artists like Will Smith, The Fugees, Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, and Eminem, none of whom to my mind resemble a gansta-rap act. If i am to believe the marriage of gansta-rap and commercialism is what crowded out hip-hop, wouldn't i expect to see the top-selling albums over some significant period of time largely represented by gansta-rap albums? The reasoning in your prior comments seems to say the industry was influenced by the successes of gangsta-rap to such a point that other types of hip-hop were forced out by the very nature of business. I'm not saying a crowding out of some sort did not occur, but me think you're laying too much at the feet of gansta-rap's influence while at the same time denigrating much of the music that followed the so called "golden age."

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:28:56 -0000

"TC, i would absolutely love to see these "obvious effects" laid out in a detailed post. i don't think i get what your trying to imply. i do hope that should you choose to write such a post, it will stand to criticism and be shown as more than 30 something awash resentment. also, I would hope you and many in your audience would agree that the music is still quite relevant today. Though much of its current styling may offend you and your audiences' lustful nostalgia for psuedo-revolutionaries stepping with plastic rifles."

Oh that's easy--a narrowing in the range of what can and can't be said. You don't have to think that Public Enemy was the height of Western art to see that. It happens with any art form that meets a better developed business model. What is less profitable is cleared out for what's more profitable. Necessarily that requires less diversity of voice. This isn't confined to hip-hop--there a reason the summer blockbuster season is dominated by, say, big budget action movies

Check out the range of hip-hop that existed at the start of the 90s with what existed by the end. The effect is clear. I should add that this isn't simply speculation. I've heard this from lips of people actually in the business of selling records.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Fred — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:55:03 -0000

Thanks for that, Ta-Nehesi. I feel as if I'm a little closer to understanding what you see in this, but to be honest, it still doesn't translate. I get how you could be moved by the seemingly authentic, unvarnished family portrait in the lyrics, but the way those lyrics are delivered in essentially a monotone chant drains them of emotion to my ears. It's not angry like some rap, but the tone seems stuck in a shell-shocked neutral, as if this is as high as the emotional range of rap goes.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

dannity — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:32:46 -0000

I just noticed that I somehow screwed up my link from earlier. That should have been Lil’ Ghetto Boy.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

laborlibert — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:36:48 -0000

TROY is probably my favorite hip hop song of all time (definately battling for top spot). Thanks to Ta-n for giving it, and its subject, the treatment they deserve.

There is something in the song, transmitted through the beat,the guitar riff, the sax, the choir note, and the lyrics that expresses and invokes in the listener, the unique and universally recognized (color is irrelevant) feelings of Love and Loss of family. The only other song that I can think of that invokes an even similar feeling (and to a lesser degree even with my Irish blood) is "My Father" (if that is the title) by the Cranberries.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Jordan — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:16:32 -0000

Random Geek Moment:

The Boondocks TV show used the original song Pete Rock sampled in a goofy tale involving graffiti and that crazy guy from PBS who used to do painting lessons. A crappy TV show but a great use of a song where it's sample meant a lot more than the song itself.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

samiam — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:47:10 -0000

Best songs of latter have of the 20th Century:

-'A Day in the Life' by the Beatles

-'Man on the Moon' by R.E.M.

-'T.R.O.Y.' by Pete Rock and CL Smooth

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

joel w — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:46:27 -0000

Just as an ode to hip-hop, great post. I grew up in Vermont, and needless to say, it's beyond the Whitest place. This isn't to say that people didn't like rap--it was just that the most popular pop station in my area used to advertise "100% rap free." You had to seek it out, and I wasn't at that point in my life yet.

Then I went to summer camp, and I heard Biggie, and I heard Wu-Tang, and Snoop and Pac and Dre. Needless to say, things haven't been the same since.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

John Henry — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:25:40 -0000

"the metre and rhyme work as a means of crystallising a certain thought or feeling. rap is the opposite"

I disagree. Rap is the same.

"isn't this when rap works best, i.e. as a series of one liners? or at least a series of wildly contrasting items?"

No. Try listening to the story tellers: Tupac, Biggie, Ice Cube, etc.

Here are the Ice Cubes lyrics to Superstar - a song about fake gangsta rappers who try to boost their street cred to sell records

"While you're shuckin' and jivin'

howdy drivin'

Rollin' in my SUV

All my plus three thugs

on the way to the club

And when I come

you got love for me

Cause I'm a super

superstar

You know we're super

superstars

Everybody know jail records

sell records

I'ma catch a case

come to court ni**a

bail naked

I got the formula

double murder

equal double platinum

I know these b*tch ni**az

wonderin' why I'm bustin' at 'em

The rich an' famous

ignoramus

It's kind of heinous

with the picture of the world

that he paint us

The most dangerous angriest lyrics

that a thug got

Ain't enough ni**a

where your mug shot?

Where's your drug spot

ni**a you's a was-not

I can't bump your shit

if you never was shot

Before you bust a verse

ni**a go snatch a purse

You ain't my dogg

till you laid up in a herse

And you'll learn about loyalty

when the record company

Try to f*ck your family

out the royalty

Your number one with a bullet

and you took it in the back

Goddamn that ni**a can rap"

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Menelik — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:24:28 -0000

"It is no mistake that gangsta rap's rise to dominance in the 90s directly tracks with major label investment in hip-hop. Again, I don't begrudge labels--they're doing what they do. But the effects of the marriage are obvious."

TC, i would absolutely love to see these "obvious effects" laid out in a detailed post. i don't think i get what your trying to imply. i do hope that should you choose to write such a post, it will stand to criticism and be shown as more than 30 something awash resentment. also, I would hope you and many in your audience would agree that the music is still quite relevant today. Though much of its current styling may offend you and your audiences' lustful nostalgia for psuedo-revolutionaries stepping with plastic rifles.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Aaron — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:30:47 -0000

Listen, just listen / To the funky song / As I rock on / And that's word is bond

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

lucretius — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:21:36 -0000

hey t-n

you may be pushing it comparing the best of rap to sonnets: the purpose of the two things is so different that any comparison is surely moot. but i am prepared to say that it is certainly MUCH harder to write a shakespearean or petrarchan sonnet at a technical level than it is write a rap: the rules of sonnet writing are exceedingly strict. the metre and rhyme work as a means of crystallising a certain thought or feeling. rap is the opposite: it's strength is its looseness: in fact seems to put almost no emphasis on concentration of mood or meaning whatsoever: e.g., the T.R.O.Y. lyrics are a pretty random collection of unconnected thoughts. in fact, isn't this when rap works best, i.e. as a series of one liners? or at least a series of wildly contrasting items? i offer in support of my argument compelling melnges such as chuck d / flavor flav and the wu tangs, but any dozen or so examples are to hand.

the blog is a thing of great beauty.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

John Henry — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:20:37 -0000

1) Gin & Juice - Snoop Dogg

2) Stranded on Death Row - The Chronic

3) Get The F--- Outta Dodge - PE

4) Once Upon A Time In The Projects 2 - Ice Cube

5) Party & Bullshit - Notorious BIG

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

dannity — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:53:04 -0000

1) Jazz (We Got) - Tribe Called Quest

2) C.R.E.A.M. – Wu-Tang Clan

3) Bring the Noise – P.E.

4) Lil’ Ghetto Boy – Dr. Dre w/ Snoop (hattip to the great Donny Hathaway)

5) I Used to Love H.E.R. - Common (T.R.O.Y. is the better song, but this seemed appropriate for the topic)

Quick iPod shuffle test: Flip the Script – Gangstarr.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

J-Boogie — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:45 -0000

How about this. Maybe "Gangsta Rap" is contrived and dead on arrival. I also grew up in the late eighties-early nineties and saw the evolution of Rap/Hip Hop over time. I would sooner cut my ears off then buy a rap album today. The stuff coming out today is PURE UNADULTERATED GARBAAAAGE. Anyways, the main point is that there is nothing that will ever compare to NWA and the breath taking explosion that catapulted them onto the scene. However, just like in real life, you can only DIE once, hence, there really is no need to say how you can kill someone over and over. When it comes right down to it, that is what "Gangsta Rap" is all about (Power, and the ultimate power is to take someone's life). There are a million+ ways that you can say/show love, feeling (empathy), release from oppression, and all that other stuff the "conscience rap/hip hop" was trying to do. In the end, after middle and corporate america fought the craze, they did as they always do, they co-opted it and packaged it into some slick crap that was easily consumed by another generation of the MAJORITY, that would put plenty of dollars in their own pockets. Now, we have the crap that we have. Just like Michael Jackson was not made rich by black folks, 50 cent owes the majority of his success (financially) to suburban white kids living vicariously through his urban orgy of violence.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

J-Boogie — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:37:42 -0000

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

John Henry — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:36:39 -0000

I dont think its a conspiracy.

Str8 Outta Compton went platinum with minimal corporate backing and no radio airplay.

Corporations would have been negligent not to sell it. They are just not setup to ignore demand.

There was still alot of non-Gangsta rap playing in the 90's. I frankly dont see why alot of white kids would buy PE's Fear of a Black Planet. Same goes for Dead Prez or X-Clan. They bought alot of Nas, Fugees, Lauren Hill, Common, Jay Z, and OutKast, probably just not as much as Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, and Wu Tang though.

I just think white kids and kids in general were able to relate more to the authenticity, rebelliousness and hedonism of The Chronic. They of course ignored the violence. They are just as desensitized to the violence and criminality as any American is. I saw more murder in "No Country for Old Men" than I heard about on the Chronic. But, thought it was a great movie. Also, when it comes to a young adult party, you can quickly fill the dance floor with "Nothin But A G Thang".

The Chronic was also musical genius. Even Quincy Jones recognizes that. It was bound to influence the evolution of rap, no matter how you slice it. N*GGAZ4LIFE, NWA's even harder and more racial follow up to Str8 Outta Compton, didnt sell as well,although it did hit #1 on Billboard, and was IMO well produced. The Chronic was a little less racial and alot more hedonistic thanks to the influence of Snoop Dogg - who was as gangsta as say MC Ren, less racial, and more interested in partying. His charisma, Dre's production, and Interscope's distribution is what really took Gangsta rap to the top of the charts in the 90's.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

Otto Man — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:25:30 -0000

Great tune. Check out the Vibes Remix if you haven't already.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

keith — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:19:40 -0000

thanks for the post, as someone who grew up a young teen in the late 80's - early 90's, this song brought me back. Slick Rick had the same kind of effect on me. I was attracted to "Children's Story", and it was because of that song that I discovered the greatness that is "Hey Young World".

Then there is KRS-One, "Love's Gonna Getcha", and the genius behind "Self Destruction", the hoods answer to We Are the World.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

keith — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:19:24 -0000

Then there is KRS-One, "Love's Gonna Getcha", and the genius behind "Self Destruction", the hoods answer to We Are the World.

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

AlexG — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:58:48 -0000

Sorry for the double post--I'm not sure how that happened.

I agree with everyone on Corporate Hip Hop. I would even go one farther to say the "gangsta" (errr) 'rap' is ultimately the most conservative form, despite all the talk of sex and violence (nothing new to hollywood) the values espoused are 'work hard and make a lot of money' 'crush the competition' 'enjoy the utility of your hard work'. Sounds like it could come right out of an MBA program...

Re: More thoughts on T.R.O.Y.

MikeCee — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:55:57 -0000

Hot- on the ipod right now. Close, on the top 10 for sure, just the single though.

And yes, the best MCs like Mos or Rakim are poets with few rivals. Its emotional, meaningful and so important.

My top 5 singles list is constantly changing and never includes anything post 1990-ish. Today's list is(no BDP today):

1. Microphone Fiend- Rakim

2. Mathmatics- Mos Def

3. Ain't Hard to tell- Nas

4. Bonita remix- Tribe

5. I got u opin remix- Black Moon