The Atlantic - Latest Comments in More jungle love for the jungle loved

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:35:21 -0000

kid,

I'd ask you to specifically point out what you find racist and why. "This" is very broad.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

kid destroyer — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:37:04 -0000

So I'm in an interracial relationship, much to the dismay of my grandmother on one side who's most concerned about me marrying into my ethnic group and my grandmother on the other side who's most concerned about me marrying into my religion. And I have to say - I find this incredibly offensive and racist when coming from my grandparents. I'm shocked to hear this coming from TNC and JG.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Chico — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:00:10 -0000

Just wanted to add my experience as a black woman. I grew up in the late 80s, early 90s in a "diverse" suburb, one of the few in my segregated city that embraced interracial marriage. However, the black girls knew what time is was: There were more black boy/white girl couplings than white boy/black girl ones. In my circle, it was assumed that white guys didn't find black girls attractive, per se. There was an occasional flash-in-the-plan mutual attraction (I even dated a couple of white guys in junior high and high school) but it wasn't until the mid-90s, my senior year, that white guys started approaching me and my friends with regularity. I don't know what prompted the change (Were we more confident and open? Was it the Lauryn Hill effect?), but after that when a white guy approached me it didn't seem so rare or surprising.

My point is, perhaps we'll see the trend of so few black women marrying out change as the years go on. At the time TNC wrote that piece about understanding why black women date outside of their race, I'd finally stopped doing a double-take if a white guy made a pass at me. Here's hoping that when it happens to the next generation of black girls, they'll just take it as a given.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Liturgygeek — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:35:40 -0000

So, it's not really about B/W or Jew/not a Jew, but when I was in college, my serious boyfriend was a light-skinned Puerto Rican, who basically tried to pass as white (and Italian...what is it with New Yorker boys of a certain age and mobster movies?). One of his friends, who became one of my friends, was one of the most beautiful black women I've ever met. I used to dream for her skin color and bone structure. Add to which, she was smart, funny, and incredibly kind - IOW, pretty much a perfect woman in my book.

I asked him once if he'd ever considered dating her. He said he'd thought about it, but ultimately decided since he'd never marry her because she was black, what was the point? Ugh. It was then that I started to realize that a lot of his attraction for me was that he saw me as "marrying up" or giving him some sort of ability to pass for white (or worse yet, that his kids would "look white"). It also helped me contextualize why he had zero interest in sharing any of his cultural experiences with me - something that had always bugged me.

All that made me positive that this was not the guy for me. I needed someone who was comfortable with himself - whoever he was - and who would want to share himself, his heritage and his history with me and any kids we might have.

As always, TNC, you are witty and thoughtful. I'm glad I found my way here.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

devilinabluedress — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:40:48 -0000

dsp:

'I think freedom of choice is scary for some folks. They want to stick w/ what they know , even if they are not particularly happy with the situation'

I don't find this comment to be a particularly fair assessment.

You are right, it is not a particularly fair assessment. It was not meant to be fair. It is an observation. By the way, it is an observation of people in general not Black women in particular. I know many people of many races who married a person because other people thought they should. They relegated themselves to a small pool of potential partners because it was what they knew. They are not happy and their relationships with their partners are disappointing to them. But they stick it out. They do what they are "told" to do by their culture, group etc. It is comfortable and conforming. But conformity has a price too.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Someguy — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:53:19 -0000

TNC,

Thank you for your statement on the question of what white people should do? I consider myself supremely lucky to have a black American in my life that is willing to talk about race and her experience with race with me. Most white Americans are not nearly so lucky. I have come to the opinion that with regards to race the one absolute duty whites have to blacks on the subject of race is to listen with the attitude that their experiences related to race are absolutely real. It is so easy to miss that step and jump to arguments about whether opinions on racial issues are correct or wrong, whether the events in a particular anecdote constitute “racism” or something else, or whether ones particular theoretical framework is valid or not ("Whites have what they have and are what they are EXPLICITLY at our expense…”). These things can and should be discussed by interested parties, but the first step in any exchange should always be the recognition that when someone shares their experiences (which inform their opinions), those experiences are unassailable. It seems too obvious to say, but experiences are by definition authentic and true (it doesn’t make any sense to try to claim that someone else didn’t actual feel a certain way or perceive a particular thing). Does the lack of blacks in upper management provide evidence of racism in your corporation? I don’t know, but the experience of recognizing that people who look like you haven’t succeeded at the highest levels in your work place can be an isolating and disheartening experience. Did that clerk treat you like crap because of race or because of something else? I don’t know, but the experience of being singled out for poor treatment is an alienating and threatening experience where one should feel comfortable. (These are probably poor examples I admit)… Regardless of what is behind situations like these we owe it to people who don’t have the luxury of looking like everyone else around them to recognize the truth of their experience as the starting point for any further discussion.

I certainly know enough to never claim that I know what it is like to be a black American. But one of the great things about being this sort of animal we call “human” is that we have the ability use experiences we have had to gain some insight into experiences we have not had. Or as TNC said more succinctly, “…with one thought always in the back of your mind: What would I do under similar circumstances?”

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

dsp — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:40:25 -0000

'I think freedom of choice is scary for some folks. They want to stick w/ what they know , even if they are not particularly happy with the situation'

I don't find this comment to be a particularly fair assessment. Depending on where you live, dating outside your race might not even be an option that seems possible. I am from NC and when my little sister was in high school (not that long ago) she had crushes on guys of all races. The crushes she had on guys outside the race were usually unrequited eventhough she usually had more 'in common' with these guys (she was considered 'alternative' but she's just a cool girl). It wasn't until she got to college in northern CA that she ended up with a white boyfriend. Now she lives in NY & dates everybody. I dated outside the race but while the guy made it a point to stress how much he loved women of different races he had a really prejudiced outlook on things which required too much explaining on my part. And there was a process that I went through before I decided to date him.

I say all of this to say that sometimes people don't really see it as 'freedom of choice' b/c it doesn't seem like a viable option. And if you have ever had some one tell you 'you're awesome but I don't date black girls' you may not be too willing to put yourself out there again. And for some that may mean waiting on a black man to show up even if it looks pretty bleak.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:26:07 -0000

M: "Whites have what they have and are what they are EXPLICITLY at our expense, and I cannot see loving anyone on that side of the fence."

When you make a broad categorical statement like that you're not going to get much engagement on this site. You just aren't. If you already have it all figured out, what's the point of engagement? You can be right all by yourself.

Zeke: "What i wonder is whether y'all think that white folks should just mind their own damn business here, or try to be more sensitive to the issue."

I'm not a fan of either strategy. The first is silly, and the second makes my skin crawl. "Sensitive" is a dodge for the weak and the guilty. We have no use for either. Better to keep exploring and asking questions with one thought always in the back of your mind: What would I do under similar circumstances?

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Zeke — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:19:40 -0000

Although I should add that my family can make for a fun mental exercise: what ethnicity of girl would cause the largest meltdown at a family gathering? Is it a familiar but still hated black girl, or someone more exotic to people that have lived their whole lives in rural North Carolina? I keep going back and forth between a black girl and a Muslim, either of which would make for some fireworks, that's for sure.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Zeke — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:11:18 -0000

I'm a straight, 20-something, Southern, anglo white man, so this discussion remains immensely fascinating and mostly inaccessible to me. My parents brought me up with good egalitarian principles (mostly to spite my redneck extended family, I think), so my gut inclination is that people ought to date and marry whoever they love, but it's pretty clear from reading this that there are all kinds of cultural forces at work here that I really don't understand.

I imagine that my outlook would be fairly different if I had the sense that my community was outnumbered or under seige. What i wonder is whether y'all think that white folks should just mind their own damn business here, or try to be more sensitive to the issue.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

J.C. — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:43:14 -0000

Meh. Dating or marrying out shouldn't be something you're FORCED into, and I've grown quite tired of hearing this line from both sides. If people are TRULY serious about finding love, they'll do what they have to in order to make it happen, which means that they'll rid themselves of all the bullshit preconceived notions of what The Perfect Mate will be and take a more realistic approach. It's really that simple.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

zacksback — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:36:34 -0000

That's your opening. And that's not discussing the tensions between the preservation of community vs. happiness of individuals when it comes to intermarriage. That's hauling out the old, worn out gold-medal round Oppression Olympics: Jews vs. Blacks - Who's Had It Worse?

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Stacy — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:29:53 -0000

I certainly never accused you of being a troll. If you were only trolling, it would be amusing. The fact that you are serious is what makes you awful. And what's the point of engaging someone who claims they could never love a white person? You are silly. And your super-dignified persona comes off as childish.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:25:07 -0000

It makes me awful to have a worldview in which individuals and their desires are not top priority, but rather community continuity and well-being is? Really? And ad hominem approaches prove what, exactly?

I get that you are insinuating that I am a troll, but I don't get why you fail to engage the point -- not only of my comment, but of the original post -- concerning the tensions between community well-being and individual experience/desire.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

zacksback — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:22:56 -0000

Latinos who are descendants of the colonizing/slaveowning Spaniards are out, but those who are descended from the enslaved/colonized are in.

Just so you know, if you ever DO decide to go "right with white" and continue this dating philosophy:

English guys are out. Irish guys are in.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Stacy — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:18:45 -0000

"Whites have what they have and are what they are EXPLICITLY at our expense, and I cannot see loving anyone on that side of the fence."

You can't see yourself loving a white person? You sound like a really awful person. But good luck with that blog! I'm sure you'll have tons of hits!!

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

zacksback — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:18:07 -0000

And the thought that you'd go through all the bullshit that comes with interracial dating, and think it's 'settling'? Hell no. If anything, it makes you more determined to make sure that person is THE ONE. One does not go through all that hell for someone who is 'eh'.

I agree. And I wonder if anyone has done a study on divorce statistics of marrying out vs. marrying in? Maybe marriage of "the two of us against the world" makes it stronger, or at least makes the parties less willing to give up on it?

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:24:00 -0000

Someguy,

Ah, the familiar specious argument comparing Black Cultural Nationalism to white supremacy!

Seriously, think about it. These are not abstract concepts to be deconstructed into atoms of theoretical meaning, but rather ideas and ideologies very much situated in history and power. In what way can you compare my ideas with white supremacy when Black folks -- here, in the Caribbean, in Latin America, and yes, even back in Africa -- are and have been systemically denied the right to our own spaces for 500 years? Surely, you can acknowledge that the material realities of life make my ideology -- any liberation ideology -- markedly different.

As for the singing of "Brown Sugar," I wasn't necessarily saying that they were singing it to antagonize me directly. But the fact that this song is such a crucial part of the "American" cultural landscape goes a long way towards proving my earlier point, don't you think?

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Someguy — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:44:52 -0000

Just so you know, someone sings "Brown Sugar" at every Karaoke bar I have ever been to with or without the presence of black women in the bar.

And as for this statement, "I dislike the degradation of our people that is inherent in this idea that we have no right to maintain coherent cultural boundaries -- that we have no right to our own spaces."

I think you will find many whites who share this perspective, sadly they almost exclusively hail from the ranks of white supremacy organizations.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:07:39 -0000

Ok, surely I cannot be the only Black person reading this who is more than slightly miffed at the bizarre parallel oppression discourse underlying the post. I've never really understood the view of Jews as a special kind of white folk, truly I don't; in the early and mid-twentieth century, European Jews in this country made their best efforts at assimilation and joining whiteness. Guess what? It worked. And while I understand that there is still a degree of cultural difference, I cannot see how it compares to being Black, whether for dating or for anything else. I cannot imagine dating a (white) Jew.

Yes, I'm one of those sistas who dates only Black (and indigenous) men (meaning Latinos who are descendants of the colonizing/slaveowning Spaniards are out, but those who are descended from the enslaved/colonized are in). I do this because there is no way around the power difference, and in a society where I cannot even freaking go to the karaoke bar to have a good time without having some white dudes sing "Brown Sugar" (the ode to the raping of my ancestors)...Just no. It's not merely a matter of preference. Whites have what they have and are what they are EXPLICITLY at our expense, and I cannot see loving anyone on that side of the fence.

I dislike the degradation of our people that is inherent in this idea that we have no right to maintain coherent cultural boundaries -- that we have no right to our own spaces.

Oh, and shameless plug: if anyone is interested, I keep a blog about Black love at searchingforblacklove.blogspot...

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

rikyrah — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:03:06 -0000

Following up on rikyrah's comments, I'd say this is one of those things that are changing rapidly. If you've passed thirty, sure, maybe your biological clock is ticking and you might be starting to consider "dating out." But if you're under thirty right now, chances are you've already been dating whoever you damn well please.

I agree with this. My 21-year old niece dates whatever guy asks that she likes. Been this way since she started at 16. It's been like the U.N.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

eric — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:16:29 -0000

Thank god for progress.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

devilinabluedress — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:20:18 -0000

rikyrah

Black woman here married to a White English guy.

I'd had six marriage proposals over the years before saying yes to my husband. My husband was not second choice, he was first choice out of a big field that varied in race and ethnicity.

I think that there are some Black women who are more likely to "marry out" for a whole host of reasons including the fact that they come from a racially mixed background.

When I was in college, I did meet up with a lot of women going through the process you describe, but I was not one of them. I started dating late in life and when I got to college I just helped myself to anything that looked fun and interesting. This carried over after college.

To me, the Black women I went to school with seemed to lack a taste for adventure and lived in a "small world." Sometimes I would feel sorry for them because they were content to keep chasing men who did not want them, while I was like a kid in a candy store sampling everything that interested me and making true connections based on shared interests and a shared philosopy of life.

I think true "freedom of choice" is scary for some folks. They want to stick with what they know, even if they are not particularly happy with the situation.

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

Mason — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:27:45 -0000

There is a great discussion on interracial dating over at:

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/

The trend seems to be that women tend to prefer their own ethnicity for dating and marriage. The primary outliers are that black women strongly preferred black men, and Asian women showed the least amount of prejudice, especially concerning white men.

The idea that black women have a "racial duty" to prefer black husbands over those of other ethnic groups is both bigoted and problematic, given the issues black men as a whole face with crime and underemployment. The reality is, though, that a significant number of black females do have these feelings (as do all ethnic groups, though seemingly to a lesser extent).

Ta-Nehisi describes the black dating scene as he saw it:

I argued that black men should not date out, but that black women should do whatever. My sentiments were much like yours - there really is no doubt, that in most cases, black women are looking out after having at least given the neighborhood a shot. The same couldn't be said of the dudes, however.

He is referring to a comment Jeff made about feeling sorry for Jewish women "dating out" -- because he assumed they just couldn't cut it with the Jewish men they were originally interested in.

His assessment entirely squares with the data. What's more difficult to determine, is whether guys see the women in interethnic couples as "settling" for the men they are with.

Imagine if I told a black husband concerning his white wife: "Man she's a whole lotta woman. It's a good thing she met you because she was getting nowhere with the white guys in her neighborhood. They just not into a woman with a butt like that." Pretty ugly, even if not said in malice.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that black African immigrants (men and women) are the least likely to feel pressured about dating their own skin color, with somewhat greater xenophobia among West Indian blacks and the highest level among multi-generational African Americans. Perhaps because they don't have historical connection to slavery and Jim Crow, and therefore don't suffer from the "siege mentality".

Re: More jungle love for the jungle loved

rikyrah — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:17:45 -0000

Essentially what you are saying is that black woman/white man (bw/wm) couples are OK only to the extent that the white man is a second choice. That he is for her a second class man who is acceptable only insofar as she is unable to find a black man and that the existence of such couples is based on the presumption that she has tried to go the black man route first and failed.

It's not that he's a second class man. But, I'll be blunt: he probably is second choice.

I'm an educated Black woman, who went through a 'process' to open myself up to the possibility of dating interracially. Every educated Black woman in my circle, who has dated interracially, went through the same ' process'.

There is a reason why Black women are the LEAST LIKELY to marry outsidie of their race. It's not natural for us, and it sure in hell isn't an easy choice.

Before I was 30, I wouldn't even consider giving a White man the time of day. But, as you get older, and your biological clock begins to tick, in the end, you just want a family of your own, and the hassles of an interracial relationship, you just factor into it all.

That's the reason why I don't hassle Black women in interracial relationships. Sure, you have your female Clarence Thomas', but overall, I believe she's a Sista just like me - she went through the ' process'. She had to let the dream of her 'Black Prince' die and expanded her options. It doesn't mean that she's unhappy. It doesn't mean that she's looking around the corner for a Black man. It just means that she had to grieve for what she thought her life would be and accept that life threw her a different path.