The Atlantic - Latest Comments in More excuses for racists

Re: More excuses for racists

WWWWWWWW — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:22:48 -0000

The best excuse for racists - "Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. I like turning out to have been correct."

If we take the sane, Jerry Seinfeld approach to racism ("not that there's anything wrong with that!") it becomes impossible to smash anyone to your Right into silence by calling them a racist. Do you believe that the racial makeup of the NBA is dictated by the league making itself a model of extreme affirmative action? If not, you're a racist.

Racism became a fully legitimate factor to consider in the presidential election when Barack Obama started drawing black primary votes in the 90% range.

It shouldn't hurt to be racist.

Re: More excuses for racists

EngineerScotty — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:36:52 -0000

Just a point of correction for some the commentors above.

Nicholas KRISTOF is the author of the piece in question. He is not the same person as William KRISTOL.

Kristof is, IMO, a rather thought-provoking columnist; and certainly one of the most worldly and well-travelled fellows in American journalism.

Bill Kristol, OTOH, is a clownish right-wing gasbag.

PLEASE, folks, don't confuse the two.

Re: More excuses for racists

Mason — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:27:56 -0000

There should be no anger directed toward Kristof. He addressed an important topic fairly.

Somewhere -- I've hunted around on the Internets and haven't found it yet -- I found a hierarchy of racial oppression, ranging from minor stereotyping to aversive racism to dominative racism up to the point of genocide. (There were maybe 6 levels to it.)

There's no question that the more brutal forms are worse than aversive racism. No question. The angering quality of aversive racism is because it is widespread, difficult to quantify, and largely unacknowledged. Classic example -- Bill O'Reilly visited a restaurant in Harlem and reported with amazement "they are just like you and me." He doesn't see himself as a racist, supposedly. Or Eisenhower -- he strongly believed in equal rights but was resistent to miscegenation.

Dave Chappelle talks about this (or did) in his standup. I remember him saying that he's almost a connoisseur of racial prejudice, and that he could really savor those who were openly prejudiced and OWNED that prejudice.

My thoughts -- racial bigotry is still way too common and corrupting in modern society. I worked with a young guy who had black "friends" yet could say some of the most vile racial epithets. He was the son and grandson of KKK members from Georgia and the infection of that kind of thought had continued through him.

As it reaches lower levels though, it enters the realm of other forms of more modest prejudice. For example I wear glasses. There are some people out there (and a rare few who openly express it) who judge me as less athletic or less capable or whatever while I have glasses on, who would feel differently if they had only seen me with contacts in.

Likewise I will openly admit I am prejudiced against rednecks. I would compare myself to Sen. Joe Kennedy, who had Jewish friends but had some nasty things to say about Jews. (So does David Cross, who is ethnically Jewish himself.) Not to the point of accepting criminality against them, but feeling that a majority have been tainted by a corrosive culture.

Prejudice can only be tapered off and made individual instead of institutional.

Re: More excuses for racists

FOARP — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:04:42 -0000

No society in the history of humankind has ever 'defeated' racism. Bias exists in each of our heads, as George Orwell (and some of his statements were fairly racist) said in his essay "Notes on Nationalism", an essay I find myself quoting more and more nowadays:

"As for the nationalistic loves and hatreds that I have spoken of, they are part of the make-up of most of us, whether we like it or not. Whether it is possible to get rid of them I do not know, but I do believe that it is possible to struggle against them, and that this is essentially a moral effort. It is a question first of all of discovering what one really is, what one's own feelings really are, and then of making allowance for the inevitable bias. If you hate and fear Russia, if you are jealous of the wealth and power of America, if you despise Jews, if you have a sentiment of inferiority towards the British ruling class, you cannot get rid of those feelings simply by taking thought. But you can at least recognise that you have them, and prevent them from contaminating your mental processes."

Being aware of bias is step one in defeating racism in yourself, but no-one can help you do it. TNC is quite right to point out that the externalising of racism (i.e., "Only red-neck neo-fascists are racists and I am not a red-neck neo-facist") does not help.

Of course, there are some biases which are impossible to rid yourself of. Many people are explicitly racist in their choice of lovers, for example. The specific area of the employment and promotion in the workplace is something only on a slightly less emotional level. I'm sure you've all heard the one about how recruiters make up their mines as to whether to hire you within the first 30 seconds of meeting you - they basically take one look at you, try out your hand shake, listen to the way you talk, and make up their minds based on that impression. If your outward appearance, name, and accent put you in a minority, you bet that's a strike against you. Is this racism? Hell yes, but how to fight it when you are the one trying to get the job? Call the recruiter a racist right there in the interview when you see that look come over their face which tells you you haven't got the job? How are you going to prove it? Even if the company slants its recruitment away from minorities, they'll always be able to point to the token few that they do recruit.

All the same, I do not think that government-mandated affirmative action is the answer, it is bound to lead to resentment against those who are seen to benefit from it. Voluntary quotas would be better, better still would be simply making sure that those recruiters who do slant against minorities get a good talking to from their superiors.

Re: More excuses for racists

ExpatJane — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:39:05 -0000

"90% of African Americans say they are voting for Obama because he is black."

Um, okay...as an African American who has been involved in voter registration and other Democrats Abroad activities since about May and who has a blog and who has talked to quite a few other African American voters, I'd have to disagree with you on that.

Where did you pull this stat from? Thin air?

I'd say that if 90% of black Americans are voting for Obama it's because 1) black Americans are traditionally aligned with the Democratic Party and Obama is the Democratic Party's nominee and 2) Obama's policies definitely seem to be a better match that McCain's with black concerns (health care, the economy, taxes, etc.)

Also, why is it that whites always come in crying that they don't have an equivalent of the NAACP? American society is pretty much focused on white culture and white values. It's when society ignores and diminishes your culture that groups like the NAACP are needed. In fact, you see such subgroups within white culture. I have white friends who are members of the Celtic Club or similar organizations. They do that as a way to celebrate their specific heritage, for support, as a way to spend time with people with similar backgrounds or for a range of other reasons.

Some whites are so singularly focused on what organizations or alliances that minorities pull together for themselves that they fail to recognize what is obvious: whites are in the majority. If you're in the majority, the culture that you live in is a celebration of who you are.

I live abroad. I can't imagine why the natives of this country would start a support group here where they are the majority. However, it's perfectly clear why they would do exactly that if they found themselves in a foreign country with only a few people like themselves.

That simply can't be rocket science to anyone.

Re: More excuses for racists

sv — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:05:28 -0000

WHAT DO WHITES HAVE?

Everything else?

I exaggerate, and I actually think it's great when white people show some cultural pride, as the rest of us do, but I think your sense of grievance is too great. Your culture and rights are not in danger of disappearing. This colony grown into a superpower is not "your" country alone. And I'm not here to take anything away from you. It IS dumb to support someone solely because of his or her race. Be joyous in the fact that no one has seen the need for a little special-interest group for white people! (And by the way, there are plenty of groups which seem to fit that bill - sometimes I wonder if the entire Republican Party is trying to. You're just mad because political correctness prevents it from being said openly. I too wish it could be. BTW I'd be a Republican if they were half as conservative as they say they are.)

Relax.

Re: More excuses for racists

Edmund Burke — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:45:02 -0000

90% of African Americans say they are voting for Obama because he is black.

What is wrong with European Americans (i.e. whites) voting for someone because he is also European American?

It is natural for someone to support someone else of his own tribe.

Blacks have the NAACP to promote their interests.

Mestizos have La Raza to promote their interests.

Asians have the 80-20 Initiative to promote their interests.

WHAT DO WHITES HAVE?

Re: More excuses for racists

Nigel — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:25:58 -0000

Racism may be widespread, but it's increasingly thinly spread.

When guys like Kristol start talking about "racism without racists.", that's just a demonstration of how racism is declining, IMO. It's another way of saying it's not socially acceptable to be a bigot.

Barack Obama is going to win big, and this English WASP is very happy indeed about it.

Re: More excuses for racists

ExpatJane — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:16:36 -0000

Ta-Nehisi, thanks for writing this.

I've said this quite a few times. Honestly, I actually take it a bit further. I really don't care if a white person thinks I'm inferior or not worth befriending because I'm black. That causes cognitive dissonance because if a person thinks these things they're not going to give me the job, period. However, I put it that way just to bring home the point that, for me, racism isn't about making whites like me. For me, it's about preventing whites from limiting my access to things that matter like jobs and education based on my skin color. And that's the image that people don't want to be associated with: the image of the white person who is burning with this virulent hate against blacks and other minorities. If they're not the stereotype of that evil person who burns crosses on lawns and yells "ni^%$r go home!" in front of integrated schools they're not racist.

Um, okay...no. Racism is much more subtle than that. This is particularly so in this political correct era where someone who is a racist knows that running around making comments about race is going to get them into a load of trouble. So let's just remove the closeted racists from the equation. I guess what we're talking about here are people who just for some unexplained reason still don't want to hire that qualified black candidate. To me, that simply sounds like they're not admitting to the beliefs or assumptions they have about blacks and that's also racism.

I truly believe that Obama will win in spite of the people who refuse to vote for him because he's a black man. Like you said, he didn't wander into this race unaware. I care about racism when it impacts the ability of a black person to get a job, buy a home or get access to education and health care. We know that this still happens and that's the problem.

Carry on.

(For the sake of discussion, I've reduced my comment here to white/black but we all know it's more complex than that.)

Re: More excuses for racists

JoGirl — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:39:44 -0000

I just want to comment on what Matt and Joel said above about how problematic those "implicit associations" tests are. I strongly disagree - those tests are great!

I'm a 37-year-old white female from Massachusetts, now a permanent resident of Los Angeles. I took several of those Harvard online tests in 2006, and my results told me that while I have *no* measurable implicit black/white or gay/straight bias (apparently pretty unusual for people in my demographic), I am biased against religious people. I've taken that useful piece of knowledge and consciously tried to treat the openly religious people that I encounter in everyday life with greater understanding and acceptance. I can't say that I've overcome my bias, but at least now that I'm aware of it I can try to do something about it.

My dad and older sister, both liberal Democrats like myself, also took the black/white test, and both found that they did have a measurable bias against black people. My dad blames the fact that he grew up in virginia in the 1940's, and my sister... well, who knows? She's three years older than me, and lives in Berkeley.

When it became clear in mid-2007 that Barack Obama was going to be a serious contender for the white house, I (ab)used my knowledge of my father and sister's test scores to urge them to question their immediate fear-based reactions to Obama.

Them: "But he's so inexperienced! What do we know about him?"

Me: "Seriously, read his speeches! And he's a hellova lot more experienced than most of the candidates who've run in your lifetime. Are you sure you're not just scared because he's half black?"

Them: "Er... well, OK I'll read his speeches. Jeez, get off my back!

Of course they're both now die-hard Obama supporters. And who knows, maybe one day they'll work their way past their implicit biases, if they really try.

Personally, I love those implicit bias tests. :)

Re: More excuses for racists

jaye — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:32:51 -0000

Yeah, I agree with some of the other commenters that Kristof wasn't excusing anyone, he was trying to explain the reality, to understand it, in order to do something about it.

I don't necessarily think these people are lying (although some of them may be)...I think someone else said that they're delusional. It's denial, but it's also a society that allows them to be in denial and actively supports that denial, so that they don't have to confront those contradictions. Articles such as Kristof's are helpful, because it forces people to begin to look at the contradictions in their logic, whereas before, no one was pushing them to do that. Now, some people are going to read that article and lie to themselves..."I'm not like that"...but there's going to be other people who read that article and have a lightbulb suddenly go off in their head, and they'll ask themselves, "Is that me? Do I do that?"

And it really extends beyond race...it's a problem in every aspect of our lives. Our society encourages us to not look too closely at the contradictions in our daily lives, it encourages denial...I don't believe in child labor, but I'm sure I've bought things made by a child...I don't want to destroy the environment, but until recently, I never thought too much about alternative energy sources or what effect my purchases had on the environment. You're not encouraged to think too carefully about these things, and that's what allows things like racism and sexism and exploitation to continue...and it's not going to stop until we begin to think more carefully about the things we have been trained not to think too carefully about.

Re: More excuses for racists

Mr. Dave — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:02:23 -0000

" "It's always blown my mind that Hillary Clinton and now John McCain are able to get the votes of people who simply won't vote for Barack Obama solely because he's black without ever being asked to reject the support of these voters."

I think John Edwards was the only candidate to do this. And frankly, he didn't get much credit for it. I can't remember his exact quote, but it was pretty good..."

I remember this because it so jumped out at me. He said, "If you won't vote for Obama simply because he is black, or you won't vote for Clinton simply because she is a woman, then I don't want your vote." Simple and eloquent. I really like that guy. Wish he could have kept it in his pants.

Re: More excuses for racists

sv — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:55:43 -0000

I think the problem is that, in so many minds, racist=evil sociopath.

Bingo. This is why even people who are aware that they have racist tendencies, especially white people (because that is the branch of racism which is most often excoriated as sociopathic, in this nation with a deep history of destructive white racism), are forced to deny this truth about themselves - it's simply unacceptable to be branded as a racist. I'm not saying it should be socially acceptable, but neither should it be painted as an unforgivable sin - not only because it's a rather natural (albeit negative) irrational tendency for people in general, but because it prevents people from being able to discuss racism rationally. I'm aware of some of the racist tendencies that I myself have, which is the only reason I'm able to check myself, and imperfectly at that.

Being unable to even discuss racism, for example, impedes realization of the fact that when people do think of racism, they're often thinking about different things - Coates e.g. is talking here about, essentially, truly equal opportunities within society, as well as truly equal protection under the law, the practical aspects of people in a supposedly merit-based society being subject to institutional and endemic disadvantages from birth APART FROM things like poverty, lack of education, lack of family cohesiveness. So one person thinks of police dogs and lynchings and Mississippi 1964, another thinks of white people feeling vaguely unsafe when a group of black men gets onto their subway car at night, and another thinks of how people of very comparable abilities but different races are treated differently in the professional world or by the law or by a bank loan officer, and how that plays out across communities. (A, B, and C.) A is the worst, but C is most pertinent and broadly applicable (to various races in USA, not just whites-and-blacks) and as Coates and others have pointed out, most insidious, because there's no George Wallace-types to blame; it's harder to get at, never mind treat. I'd argue that things like B, which Coates says he doesn't care about because it doesn't have as much practical effect and sort of requires mind-reading and psychotherapy to even detect, are the root cause of C.

Poorly paraphrased from the Vedas: evil is hardest to defeat in this age, because it is within the self.

Re: More excuses for racists

zic — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:54:02 -0000

It blows my mind that the NYT gives a numbskull like Kristol a soapbox for his warmongering and hate. It blows my mind that we take small-minded, evil thinkers seriously, that we still let them diminish the value of others because of skin color.

I'm a middle-aged white female. As a girl, my best friend was my cousin, 11 months older, and half latino. Growing up in the white north, that gave me a ring-side seat on white racism and all it's subtleties; for I saw them aimed at my favorite person in the whole world. And what I saw in the world of children hasn't changed a bit in the world of grownups; it's just gotten slightly more subtle.

So if you're one of those folks who thought Obama was groovy but couldn't win because he was black, go look in the mirror. You're part of the problem. Imagine thinking he couldn't win because he was white. Because he was male. Because he was from a broken family. Because he's a lawyer. Because he rode the subway once. Because he's got kids.

Maybe someday, we'll start thinking things like he can win because he's good. Because he's smart. Maybe she'll win because she's got the experience and the ability. Maybe, someday, race, gender, or orientation won't come into our calculations. Instead, ability, intelligence, communication skills, negotiation skills, temperament, diplomacy, management skills, etc. would be considered criteria for the job.

Certainly the ability to drink a six pack and count days to the rapture don't seem high on the list as qualifications.

But it ain't gonna happen while mean-spirited people like Kristol get to praise incompetent people like Palen in the NYT. And somehow, they're two sides of the same coin. If people aren't asked to find their better selves, why should they expect the best in their leaders?

Re: More excuses for racists

Chico — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:37:51 -0000

Wow, reading the comments here makes me realize how far we have to go in terms of race relations. If we continue to give people passes for their "misconceptions," "biases," "racism" or whatever term you want to use, we'll never get over the hump that holds all of us back. I don't think racists are loveless people who kick puppies and take candy from babies (I use the reference to Mr. Burns because he's the best cartoonish villain I can think of). But I do think that if we want to live in a country where everyone is granted their humanity, we have to stop making excuses for people who seek to deny said humanity for others. Thinking a group of people is inferior to you based on skin color, or whom they happen to love, or whether they have breasts are all examples of this denial of humanity. Period.

Re: More excuses for racists

Marc Adin — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:37:50 -0000

i was raised by a black family for the first four years of my life. my father was working 2 full time jobs and my mother was ill. the family lived next to us in a quonset hut in quonset hut in a 'veterans' project'. i am white.

since that time, i went college, vietnam, and grad school. i worked for thirty years and sat on many boards of trustees, held senior posts in hospitals and universities. i have seen racism from many different angles and sides: as a combat infantryman, as a night janitor, at the us post office, while teaching at colleges and universities, and in the strange world at the top of the hierarchy of management and labor.

i have come to believe that all americans are racists to some extent. the first question is how willing are we to examine our prejudices, the second, and most important, is how do we act upon our biases? do we recognize them for what they are, and dismiss presumption for what it is? do we accept the acting out of racism and prejudice around us, and remain silent? once each of us has worked that out we can move on to being the person we would like to think we are. sometimes that chasm is so broad that no bridge can withstand the strain and prejudice explodes in our face and anyone within hearing distance.

as for the economic exploitation of black americans by white americans, one only has to read "an economic interpretation of the constitution,' by charles beard or the very recent "slavery by another name," by douglas blackmon.

knowledge is the beginning...

Re: More excuses for racists

michaelTO61 — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:37:09 -0000

First off my friend, your blog is excellent and I really think highly of you and your ideas. Lately I've been thinking about this post racial society that everybody is hollering about and something about the milk didn't seem too clean. Maybe we can say that racism has been expunged with the advent of Obama claiming the White House. I don't think that racism has ever really been the problem. The problem is white supremacy. The fact that a black man can be as educated as any white guy but is still seen as some sort of risk is to me the outcome of white supremacist thinking. This type of thinking is inherently ignorant. If that word were used in place of racism I wonder how it would shift the down right silly assed argument about whether or not racism actually exist. (Whenever I hear this as truth I asked for a damn date) In my mind white supremacy defines racism and puts the responsibility of action directly where it has always belonged. Like Toni Morrison said recently when asked yet the fuck again, what the solution to racism was "I can't be the doctor and the patient at the same time".

Re: More excuses for racists

Joel — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:31:38 -0000

The implicit associations test is just not very good. Its like playing an early 90's digitized video game. Since the test is so cartoonish, its hard to derive real conclusions from it (IMHO).

I do believe that Kristof is dead on -- people are afraid of confronting their personal evils. They'll talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk, so to speak.

I'll freely admit that I have my own implicit biases, as does everyone else. This isn't always a bad thing (although rationally unjustified to some extent). When I got off a plane in Fiji, I assumed that all the guys offering to show me around town were hustlers looking to scam me out of my buck.

Re: More excuses for racists

matt — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:31:05 -0000

One thing that has really corrupted educated people's thinking about race recently has been these stupid 'implicit association' tests. I also think it's unsettling how the tests been embraced so enthusiastically by supposedly well-meaning white writers.

The subtext of these article is always: 'see? we're all racists! I'm enlightened enough to admit it. But our racism is so unconscious and automatic (and imposed by a 'culture' none of us endorses), none of us can be blamed for it!'

It's exculpation by means of vapid, universal accusation. And it's 'scientific'!

Re: More excuses for racists

Chaz — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:27:36 -0000

As nice as it is to hear about the racial awareness being gained through the generations one thing is and will always be true for many of us people of color: We want it fair now. And anything else is a nice but unfair concession in the place of true equality. Don't get me wrong, I hope things are better for my kids, but that won't stop me from pointing out things that are wrong and that hurt me now. So, don't be upset by that, just know it as true.

Further, I think the take home from studies like these is: Yes these behaviors are subconscious but modern sociology and psychology tell us they're there. Now, we have no reason not to try and self correct.

Re: More excuses for racists

Pesto — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:23:43 -0000

I take Kristoff's column this way: racism is very, very prevalent, practically ubiquitous, and often manifests itself in ways we don't expect -- even in ourselves. I know this is an exaggeration, but asking an American if s/he's racist is a bit like asking a fish if s/he's wet. We're swimming in the stuff, even if we don't recognize it for what it is.

Point taken about power, and where the rubber hits the road. Still, raising one's own consciousness is a difficult challenge, especially if your societal surroundings push you in the opposite direction.

Although Kristoff doesn't mention any particular political issues, recognizing this fact about racism is crucial to understanding Affirmative Action. AA isn't designed to correct for the deficiencies of women, or African-Americans. It's designed to correct for the deficiencies of men, and whites.

Re: More excuses for racists

THS — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:22:39 -0000

Please fix: "the right of black people to go get there's" should be "the right of black people to go get theirs."

Hope I made myself clear in my previous post.

Re: More excuses for racists

Maya — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:22:19 -0000

I want to pick up Lynn's point, that it's not necessarily just white people who discriminate against or hold negative associations with African-Americans. I think what's really telling is that half the time a completely innocent black man gets taken down by the cops in a hail of bullets, a number of the cops are non-white. Are the black cops racist for assuming that a black man pulling out a cell phone is a dangerous drug dealer reaching for his gun? Honestly, I don't think it matters. Calling someone a racist or not isn't the important issue, it's the structural and institutional forms of racism that go into constructing the black man as drug dealer. And those are so much harder to deal with (partly because there's no easy individual responsibility to affix) in many ways than the racists who refuse to vote for Obama because he's black.

Re: More excuses for racists

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:20:49 -0000

I never liked that book.

Re: More excuses for racists

Tony Comstock — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:18:15 -0000

"Think about it: You have two worlds - one in which..."

This is reductionist.

There aren't two worlds. There is one, complex world; and in that complex world, a black man is more likely to get a fair(er) shake from my father than from my grandfather; and more likely to get a still fair(er) shake from me.

If you'd prefer the certainty that my grandfather wouldn't hire you because you are black over the unknowable possibility that I don't realize that I didn't hire you because you are black, maybe it's time for you to read "What's the Matter with Kansas?" again.