The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JordanT — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:05:36 -0000

Per wikipedia,

"The Wonderlic Personnel Test is a twelve-minute, fifty-question intelligence test used to assess the aptitude of prospective employees for learning and problem-solving in a wide range of occupations."

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JayCutler — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:04:36 -0000

Young is dumb, or possibly crazy. I'm not even talking about the Wonderlic thing, just look at his interviews, comments about retiring, etc. This isn't a white/black thing either; Coates rightly pointed out that Terry Bradshaw is a complete idiot.

Young also has a weak arm. It's true, seriously. That throwing motion just eliminates any possibility of firing it in there.

Young makes bad decisions.

Young is a great athlete and also does seem to perform well under pressure. He is also benefitted by a great defense.

As a commenter mentioned earlier, Young is still much better than Matt Leinart, who is basically Vince Young without athleticism.

Of course, my namesake will be the best quarterback from this draft.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Stacy — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:57:08 -0000

"The Wonderlic doesn't measure intelligence, the point is it measures your ability to learn."

This is false. The Wonderlic test is an intelligence test by definition. It has nothing to do with your ability to learn.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

keith — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:56:25 -0000

For the record, he did go back i the game and did legitimately get hurt. But I completely understand the doubts, he has not gotten better and that speaks to his drive and work ethic.

On a seperate note, can we get a seperate thread about underated bad asses in the NFL. My early pick, Jason Witten. Dude seperates his shoulder in the 2nd quarter last night, goes to the locker room, pops it back in place takes a shot and comes out to catch 6 more passes for over 100 yards.

then ther is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCVy8sVqBm4

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Stacy — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:53:45 -0000

O'Donnell, Marino, and Kelly all came close to winning one. That is a silly point. We could take a sub set of starting QB's who did really well on the Wonderlic, and I'm sure the winning percentages would be similar. But no, I'm not going to look it up...

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JordanT — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:44:31 -0000

And for the record let's get clear--Vince Young's problem isn't that he's stupid.

The Wonderlic doesn't measure intelligence, the point is it measures your ability to learn. VY had a huge learning curve, since he was thrown into games his first year. Defenses have been able to adjust to him, and he hasn't been able to adjust or learn from it. The score is important for QBs because coaches like to throw them into games far before they are ready. It'd probably be less important if coaches were more willing to wait 2-3 years before putting a new QB in.

BTW, NFL teams in the 90's have no where near the complexity of the offensive or defensive schemes of the NFL today. Defenses especially have become a lot more complex versus those days.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Fred — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:40:28 -0000

A fair point, T-NC. Kelly certainly came close to winning one. And I agree that Bradshaw is probably the dumbest of the bunch.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:23:57 -0000

Touche Fred. And only Bradshaw won a Super Bowl--but he may the dumbest of the bunch. I don't think Marino or Kelly didn't win because they were stupid.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

mattf — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:05:54 -0000

If TN doesn't want Vince Young, please send him to the Dolphins. We'll send you, um, whoever...

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Fred — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:42:53 -0000

"D.McNabb,Steve McNair,Heath Shuler(I know he sucked, but he is a congressman), Neil O'Donnel, Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, and Terry Bradshaw all had lower Wonderlic scores than Vince Young"

How many of these guys won a Superbowl besides Bradshaw, who had the benefit of one of the best defenses ever in the NFL?

"I know some of you (Fred) want to troll this thread and make it a "black people are stupid" thing."

As you would say, T-NC, respond to what I said, not what you wish I said. I made a legitimate point in the context of this thread. I brought up the Wonderlic score not because Vince Young is black but because he scored so poorly on it. There have been black players who have done well on the test.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:17:39 -0000

Yeah Jordan. "Pound the run and go deep" doesn't exactly describe Buffalo's K-Gun offense of the Jim Kelly era. Randall Cunningham was the Eagles offense. Who was he going to pound the run with? Anthony Tony? William Sherman? More importantly--who was gonna block for those dudes? Dan Marino wishes he could have had the luxury of pounding the ball. No disrespect to Tony Nathan, but come on dude. Furthermore, it's hard for me to fathom that Vince Young is being asked to do much more than Steve McNair, given that McNair was the starter just two years ago.

I think the Wonderlic should be taken into account--just like 40 times, and vertical leaps. But those don't make a great football player. And for the record let's get clear--Vince Young's problem isn't that he's stupid. It's not stupidity that causes you not to want to go back in the game after being booed.

On another note, I know some of you (Fred) want to troll this thread and make it a "black people are stupid" thing. But you should at least know the basic facts of your case.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Nat — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:46:11 -0000

VY was a supremely intelligent and confident football player through his first year in Tennessee. He made everyone around him better. Screw the Wonderlic. It is not clear to me what has happened, but the 'VY is done' assertions are a joke. If the VY of two years ago shows up his teammates will be thrilled to have him back.

Mental illness, if that is what is going on here, can strike anyone. I recall Earl Campbell, one of the true warriors of all time, has had issues. I hope Vince is back soon, at his best he is great fun to watch.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Freddie — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:51:22 -0000

Two of those QBs played in the modern NFL. The others played during a time where the offensive scheme was pound the run, and then throw deep

Saying that Neil O'Donnel, Randall Cunnigham, Jim Kelly, and Dan Marino didn't play in the modern NFL is one of the most absurdly ignorant things I've ever read. Cunnigham played on the second most prolific passing offense of all time!

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

keith — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:38:41 -0000

I don't think era's had anything to do with it. A good QB is a good QB. But since you mentioned it, Jim Kelly through for over 35,000 yards and Dan Marino threw for more yards than anyone not named B.Favre. They hardly played in ground and pound offenses, neither did Randall Cunningham who has similar physical ability to Vince Young. Terry Bradshaw played in a run first offense but still managed to pass for over 27,000 yds.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JordanT — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:22:00 -0000

D.McNabb,Steve McNair,Heath Shuler(I know he sucked, but he is a congressman), Neil O'Donnel, Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, and Terry Bradshaw all had lower Wonderlic scores than Vince Young.

Two of those QBs played in the modern NFL. The others played during a time where the offensive scheme was pound the run, and then throw deep.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Freddie — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:21:04 -0000

No, it doesn't make any sense from either a football or a management standpoint, it does make a certain amount of sense from a black helicopter, tin hat, conspiracy theory perspective.

Content-free argument by assertion; everyone's favorite.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Freddie — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:11:03 -0000

When Vince Young flubbed the Wonderlic, a lot of folks were quick to downplay the importance of that sort of IQ test. His poor performance in the league supports the predictive value of the Wonderlic.

Fred seriously is in self-parody territory at all times. He really is.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

keith — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:10:20 -0000

before we start talking about Wonderlic scores:

http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic.htm

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JordanT — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:45:51 -0000

To follow up on this, from looking at the Wonderlic by position, QBs and O-line score the highest, a few points above average RBs and Receivers score the lowest, a few points below average.

I'd be nervous drafting a QB with a poor Wonderlic score, but I wouldn't care so much if it was a RB.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228.html

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Stacy — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:41:24 -0000

Fred,

The dude won the rookie of the year. He's only played two seaons. I wouldn't call that a poor perfomance. There have been a lot of very good QB's who have done shitty on the Wonderlic. I'm not saying it shouldn't be taken into account, but frankly they were talking about how wrong the Wonderlic was after his rookie season. So who the fuck knows?

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

ktheintz — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:39:09 -0000

The pro play I remember best from VY was that time he through a long pass for an interception, and was so mad (at himself) that he beelined the length of the field and tackled the safety returning the pick.

He's obviously got issues, but it isn't his heart.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

Fred — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:37:02 -0000

When Vince Young flubbed the Wonderlic, a lot of folks were quick to downplay the importance of that sort of IQ test. His poor performance in the league supports the predictive value of the Wonderlic.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

howard — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:10:32 -0000

JordanT, to follow up on your point, the nytimes yesterday did some back-of-the-envelope calcs based on increased size and speed in the NFL and concluded that they were hitting 25% harder than 30 years ago (F = MA, after all!).

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JordanT — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:00:40 -0000

That said, I've often wondered why somebody in the NFL doesn't implement something with more option principles

I believe it's been tried, what happens is the QB gets hurt. What the linebackers will do is hit the QB on every plan and he'll get hurt. The NFL hits incredibly hard, and even much larger RB's last on average 5 years in the league. RB's also happen to be a much more fungible position than a QB. Look at LdT, he already seems to be breaking down and I don't think he's even 30.

Re: Man, is Vince Young a bust?

JLM — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:38:16 -0000

I certainly hope VY gets whatever help he needs, and that this isn't the end of the line for him professionally. However, he was basically a one-year wonder in college, and even with the sudden surge in less leaden QBs in the NFL, few teams are going to pull an Atlanta and build the entire offense around the QB as principal ball carrier.

That said, I've often wondered why somebody in the NFL doesn't implement something with more option principles - the standard excuse I hear is that there's too much lateral speed on defense to allow an option offense to exploit gaps. But it'd be fun to see...good luck ever getting anyone in the No Fun League to try something more innovative than an extra receiver.