The Atlantic - Latest Comments in It is of course worth noting...

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:52:55 -0000

I guess the term Holocaust means something in particular in me that yes, it does drive me crazy when people throw around that comparison, even if it is based of his faith and his belief system. I guess we should stop this conversation now and agree to disagree.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:46:52 -0000

Peter

I don't want to jack the thread here but its actually the same thing to me. He said IF a person believes that life begins at birth and he does. I don't believe that so its not my deal, but if you really do believe that birth starts at conception then I think you would hold his same beliefs about it being akin to the holocaust. Just using the word holocaust drives people crazy of course but it doesn't move me that way unless people are denying it or using it in an unreasonable analogy which going by his belief system he is not. Put it to you this way, he sees a fertilized egg as a person, so if 40 million people were terminated......

Now back on topic, as many have predicted Obama isn't the only one catching hell behind this. The religious right is all up in arms at Rick Warren too.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016112.php

I don't endorse the guy or his opinions on a range of issues but it is what it is. I don't think his invocation will focus on abortion nor foreign policy so I am not at all fazed by it. Some people are and more power to them but its just not something that seems unreasonable to me since Barack Obama has been open and honest about his admiration for Warren long before now.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:09:39 -0000

sgwhite,

Sorry to get back to this (I can't help it!) but there's another quote of the good Reverend Warren talking about abortion and Holocaust:

http://christianpost.com/article/20081217/rick-warren-not-satisfied-with-making-abortions-rare.htm

“Of course I want to reduce the number of abortions,” Warren told Beliefnet Editor-in-Chief Steven Waldman when asked if he was going to work with the Obama administration to achieve an abortion reduction agenda or if he thinks that the effort is a charade.

“But to me it is kind of a charade in that people say ‘We believe abortions should be safe and rare,’” he added.

“Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said. “I’m not satisfied with that. I want the Holocaust ended.”

Unlike the previous quote, where at least there was some wiggle room to sort of defend him, (HE HIMSELF wasn't equating abortion to Holocaust, he was saying that to people who believe that life beginS at conception, abortion is similar to Holocaust), this one is pretty firm, no? It is HIS belief and HIS VIEW that abortion can be equated to Holocaust.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:40:46 -0000

Obama is breaking it down on Tee Vee right now. Good stuff.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

KarenZ — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:26:45 -0000

Here's my prediction: Rick Warren (meh) will give a conventional invocation that nobody remembers.

The Reverend Lowery, however, will deliver a stemwinder -- the sort of exuberant, hopeful, celebratory prayer that can even make an atheist say "Amen." And the next day everybody will be talking about it. And years later, they'll say, "remember that closing prayer at Obama's first inauguration? That was somethin'."

If only he could bring his back-up choir, an electric organ, and some percussion.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Bruce — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:22:13 -0000

Rev Lowery reminds me of the father of a good friend of mine. Also a clergyman, his humility was only surpassed by his intelligence. Between Rev Lowery's sermons and Hank Johnsons "everybody needs somebody"...this blog is responsible for spreading alot of retorical wealth.

As for the invocation speeches, Lowery couldn't be a better choice, i haven't heard warren talk except for the short one at the first meet on broke-back...sorry, saddle-back church...but again, IMHO Lowery will surely outdo him.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

stonetools — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:19:39 -0000

Hey, Obama was elected on the grounds that he wants to bring people together. Doesn't that mean, you know, actually reaching out to folks of different beliefs?

It seems Obama has selected one of each for the religious bookends to the inaugural. You get a center-right mainstream evangelical to begin and and left-center evangelical to finish. What's wrong with that?

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:12:34 -0000

sgwhiteinfla,

I've actually seen that quote before, and I respectfully disagree with you that he was just being real. The Holocaust comparison is the deal-breaker for me. Sorry, this is my last post on this, for real this time, promise :)

Re: It is of course worth noting...

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:56:10 -0000

PeterG.

I am not here to defend the things Rick Warren has said but I would like to actually point out the quote that you were referring to where people have said he equated abortion to the holocaust. I read what he actually said and as a person who supports a woman's choice, the way he framed the point he was making didn't actually have me all up in arms. But for those who haven't actually seen it I think they should see it for themself. Not to thread jack and I am requesting before hand that nobody respond to me, but just for informations sake because this has been bandied about a lot on the liberal blogosphere. Besides who knows maybe everybody will still be outraged, I just know that I wasn't.

For many evangelicals, of course, if they believe that life begins at conception, that's a deal breaker for a lot of people. If they think that life begins at conception, then that means that there are 40 million Americans who are not here [because they were aborted] that could have voted. They would call that a holocaust, and for them it would like if I'm Jewish and a Holocaust denier is running for office. I don't care how right he is on everything else, it's a deal breaker for me. I'm not going to vote for a Holocaust denier….

To me thats just being real.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Deborah — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:48:22 -0000

The thing that people don't seem to get is that Rick Warren ALREADY HAS LEGITIMACY.

I'm a lapsed Unitarian, NO ONE in my family has his books, and yet I read his profile in the New Yorker and knew his name better than any other Evangelical.

But don't look for him to EVER try to pass a gay marriage amendment legalizing gay marriage nationwide. It. Ain't. Gonna. Happen

Oh, sure, Sarge, go all reality-based on Obama's actual record on the issues.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:39:26 -0000

And I thing Warren's views on abortion demand at least as much attention as his views on gay marriage. In that issue, at least, surely he's not within the mainstream opinion? Unless the majority of the country believe that abortion has similarity to the Holocaust?

I'm skirting close to thread-jacking now, so I'll stop. I'm really sorry, just having a bad morning today. Please continue talking about Reverend Lowery.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Gramsci — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:35:16 -0000

I'll take Warren for Lowery, but I would more readily have taken Komunyaaka as poet for Warren. On that score, wouldn't Warren-Ashbery-Lowery be the "I don't give a fuck" trifecta. I'd love to hear Ashbery unite the country in utter confusion.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:30:45 -0000

"That's because, if you're going to insist on having a benediction and invocation, then Lowery's the kind o fperson who ought to be doing it, at least if you're progressive."

But Brian, as some people would remind us over and over again, Obama is NOT a progressive. Progressives are naive, stupid and idiotic for not listening to what Obama was saying during the campaign and not realizing that fact in the first place, and expecting unreasonable things from him.

Yes, yes, I get it already. Obama is not a progressive, and he is the President of the whole country, not just Manhattan or other liberal enclaves. But may I still retain my rights to complain, please? Without being called an idiot for expecting too much from Obama? Please? Thank you.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:27:59 -0000

Incertus

I don't think that throwing a progressive blanket on this issue works this time. Believe it or not there are many people who consider themselves progressive who either do not agree with gay marriage but are for civil unions or don't think the issue should be used as a litmus test for who should be on the inauguraton program. A realist, which is what I try to be every day, realizes that having Lowery on the program is a risk not only because of what he preaches but also because of the Rev Wright issues. A realist also realizes that Obama will be criticized by the right for picking Lowery the same as he will from the left for picking Warren. Picking Lowery wasn't close to being something he "should" have done except for to the people who think Obama owes them something other than what he promised during the campaign.

I can't repeat this enough, Obama also endorses civil unions, not gay marriage, so picking Rick Warren actually mirrors his own beliefs. This was not a secret and in fact Obama affirmed this at the Saddleback forum. Obama also expressed his admmiration for Rick Warren many many times. So anybody that voted for Obama who is upset by this pick either wasn't paying attention or are being unreasonable in my opinion.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

montysano — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:20:37 -0000

My family and I were fortunate enough to be in Selma, listening outside Brown Chapel, when Rev. Lowery made his "good crazy" intro of Obama. That was truly one of my best days, when I found myself in this place where the progressive dream is alive and well.

Lowery is a giant, and one Joseph Lowery easily trumps one Rick Warren.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Incertus (Brian) — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:09:10 -0000

Nobody seems to want to give Obama credit for Lowery being on the program too.

That's because, if you're going to insist on having a benediction and invocation, then Lowery's the kind of person who ought to be doing it, at least if you're a progressive. Giving Obama credit for that is giving him credit for something he ought to do in the first place--no real glory in that. It's like praising me because I got my grades in on time.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

sgwhiteinfla — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:05:29 -0000

The thing that people don't seem to get is that Rick Warren ALREADY HAS LEGITIMACY. Please look up the numbers on the book sales of "Purpose Driven Life". I honestly don't know of a family member of mine that doesn't own one of those books and I am talking extended family. People can be mad all the want but the guy is a leading evangelical and there aint NOBODY with his kind of following that actually endorses gay marriage. NOBODY.

Also I will point out the obvious, Barack Obama went to Warren's church and asserted that marriage should be between one man and one woman. His opposition to prop 8 was justified by the fact that they were taking away rights already granted. But don't look for him to EVER try to pass a gay marriage amendment legalizing gay marriage nationwide. It. Ain't. Gonna. Happen

I do appreciate the counter point Coates. Nobody seems to want to give Obama credit for Lowery being on the program too.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:05:17 -0000

Deborah,

I don't mean mainstream legitimacy in the sense of higher profile or better national image. I mean legitimacy in the sense that someone who advocates the things that he advocates is being embraced by a Democratic president, emphasis on DEMOCRATIC. We have two major parties in this country, and only one of the parties supposedly stand for gay rights and abortion rights. So what does it say about the party's commitment to those issues when someone like Warren is given a prominent role in the inauguration?

I don't mean to mock your concern about Lowery's selection not getting the attention it deserves by my "Shhh. Let's not give the right wing nuts ideas, shall we? Better to keep the focus on Warren" comment. That was just a moment of levity. Sorry if it comes off as dismissive.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

melorenee — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:02:48 -0000

What struck me most was the prophecy in Rev. Lowrey's comments. Who would have imagined that the planets aligned in the way they did to give us Obama in our lifetime? Still in awe...

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:57:35 -0000

Guys,

We don't need two Rick Warren threads...Though maybe it's not possible to talk about one without the other at this moment. Fine. Carry on.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Green — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:55:16 -0000

Obama's not giving Warren be mainstream legitimacy. Everyone I know who would inclined to read such a thing, and a whole lot of people people who otherwise would not be, have read his book. Heck there's two copies in my house (neither of which I've read) just because it reached that level of ubiquity where it was one of those things you just sort of couldn't avoid. Warren had mainstream legitimacy long before Obama came along.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

Deborah — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:47:46 -0000

Peter, can you name one previous invocator who gained national legitimacy and increased national image from it? As Rob noted in the previous thread, people can go make a margarita or take a bathroom break during the invocation if they don't like the speaker. Warren has legitimacy from the size of his church, his book sales, and his influence within the evangelical community, which led to the inaugural invite, not vice versa.

I don't want the focus on Warren when there are so many really interesting people--like Lowery--to focus on. Now I'm looking forward to Lowery's speech--the man has not shied away from controversy in the public square before, after all. A shout down would be inappropriate, but this is a man with stuff to say--what'll he choose?

Re: It is of course worth noting...

iron pimp hand — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:44:50 -0000

I can imagine the reverse sequence happening on right-wing blogs. People being exercised by the presence of Lowery at the event but then someone exclaiming that "Of course it is worth noting that warren will be there".

In my view that Lowery is also there shouldn't be a mollifier to warren's inclusion or vice versa. Both of them being invited strikes me as far more cynical than if it was just one or the other.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

PeterGuillam — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:38:06 -0000

"Between his comments at the King funeral and support for gay marriage, this is in its way a pretty controversial pick. Except google search says it wasn't."

Shhh. Let's not give the right wing nuts ideas, shall we? Better to keep the focus on Warren.

I still think inviting Rick Warren is a bad idea, though. Even at the most pragmatic, craven, political-calculation level, I don't see the upside of it. It's conferring mainstream legitimacy to Warren, rather than winning Obama supporters from the evangelical movement.

Re: It is of course worth noting...

roselin — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:37:15 -0000

I suspect that with your help, TNC, Rev. Lowery and his 'progressive' ways will get some media play. Hopefully.

I heard him speak at primary watch party in Atlanta. It was an experience I won't forget.