The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Integrating The Burning House

Re: Integrating The Burning House

DanJoaquinOz — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 05:29:51 -0000

Mike Stearman - I'm an American ex-pat living in Australia and you're not only generalizing, you're completely wrong. I witnessed first hand American racism 35 years ago, living in Texas, and Australia by any comparison is a truly cosmopolitan, multinational country that welcomes diversity. Your stereotype of the "white Anglo Aussie" is an outdated, laughable cliche that doesn't account for the enormous changes in attitudes and demography that have occurred here in recent decades. Your comments are a flippant, ill-informed insult to a nation and people who have made enviably enormous progress in the treatment of both their indigenous population and their growing, non-white populations.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Mike Stearman — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 03:15:18 -0000

As the American writer Bill Bryson once put it, Australia is the last country in the Anglo-Saxon world where racist sentiments of a type not heard elsewhere in 50 years, are still found in casual speech...(I paraphrase).

Knowing that, or having had much contact with White Australian culture, this list is no big surprise.

The average white anglo Aussie would be mystified by the fuss-he simply thinks everyone thinks blondes are prettier, and black women not in the running... Yes, I'm generalizing, but Oz is where the US was 35 years ago...

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Marisa — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:14:16 -0000

I objectify people constantly, but as a general rule I keep it to actors and actresses who command their salaries based on their looks or mojo. As an individual or among friends, it is not a big deal to debate who is the hottest in any particular field, but it is insulting to have professionals in a field objectified by other professionals in that field. Especially when broadcast or published. The bottom line is that women's accomplishments are commonly tossed aside with these entertaining, ancedotal, common-on-be- a-good-sport contests over hotness. And that sucks.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

ohmicron — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:14:11 -0000

Yes, eltoro, you are right. Maybe excessive subjectivity on my part. However, there's just something about the sistas...

Had to google Ms Joyner, before my time...wow.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

eltoro — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:42:30 -0000

"Oh, and eltoro: no such thing as a 'plain black woman'"

Ohmicron,

I must disagree with you on this point. Just as there are plain-looking white, Asian, and Latino woman, there are plain-looking Black woman (although many plain-looking Black woman do possess great figures).

Nevertheless, I heartily agree with you about Serena and Venus; their beauty is truly undeniable. In addition, as someone who argues that the most beautiful behind ever belonged to Florence Griffith Joyner, I have no problem with muscles on female athletes.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

kristi — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:08:13 -0000

zacksback writes: Nobody has commented that Venus or Serena WOULD be hot if they: a) lost 20 lbs.

No, but there was a dude upstream who said they were too 'muscular' to be considered pretty, and that's not a black or white thing. Otherwise, we all know that Oprah gets a lot of crap about her weight. So did Starr Jones. So, I'm not sure your theory holds up, at least in that regard...ie. black women still get blamed for not living up to the so-called ideal, just like white women do.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Roadburdened — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 12:34:30 -0000

The only person on that list who has won a major is Ivanovic, and the only thing people can say about her this year is, "WTF happened to Ivanovic?"

Five years ago I thought Serena was gorgeous, but I didn't care much for Venus. However, after seeing Venus at Wimbledon last year, I have to say she is very elegant and sexy. Serena still looks great, but she is fatter than she was in her prime.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

zacksback — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:34:04 -0000

And even if that happens, the not-so-beautiful ones are still not-so-beautiful, right? And still have to live in the same world they're in now?

This is the thing: skinny-ass blonde white chicks are what the media tell us is the ideal, like Scarlett Johansson, Kornikova, etc. Women of color will NEVER be in this group, as the vast majority of Black women can't wake up tomorrow and be White (the history of passing and the success of uber-beautiful light-skinned women like Halle Berry to the contrary notwithstanding. They're the exceptional outliers that prove the rule, IMHO.).

So the communication to Black women is: "This ideal CAN'T be you because of your race: never gonna happen."

But, White women already have the main ingredient of the ideal: whiteness. So the media communication is: "Why DON'T you look like this ideal? Hit the gym, throw up that lunch, dye your hair, get that size 0 body -- because you're white, and if you don't look like this, it's YOUR FAULT."

I mean, let's look at this thread. The majority of comments are discussing the following: Venus and Serena are either attractive or they're not, depending on how you see race - thumbs up or down, it's binary. Nobody has commented that Venus or Serena WOULD be hot if they: a) lost 20 lbs, b) got their teeth fixed, c) had their boobs done, or d) any other physically-altering procedure.

So, Black women live with knowing they'll never be the ideal. White women live with knowing it's their own fault if they're not the ideal.

Just another perspective (on beauty alone, btw, I'm not talking other advantages of privilege which any white woman has, regardless of looks.).

Re: Integrating The Burning House

ohmicron — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:24:27 -0000

As a white boy who lives by the "the darker the berry.." proverb, the beauty of these two women is undeniable,from the lithe to the bootyfied, and are the only intersection of beauty and talent on the tennis court today.

I think men who are threatened by a little extra muscle are either insecure, or are playing for the wrong team to begin with, as are most guys involved with publishing 'most attractive' lists anyways!

Also, objectification of women is too maligned generally. It has its place in the evolutionary game, and can turn on men and women alike!

Oh, and eltoro: no such thing as a 'plain black woman'

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Mary — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 10:57:57 -0000

Serena and Venus are beautiful by all standards as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

stonetools — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 10:36:29 -0000

OK, my problem with Venus and Serena is that they have NOT been as dedicated to their game and their training as they could have been. If they had been, they would be smashing all of Graf's and Evert's records and would be sweeping all of these blonde, anorexic -shikovas off the court every time.

As to judging female athletes by their looks and not their performances-well, that's beyond moronic, IMO.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

wb44 — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:05:35 -0000

@unclesmedley

Uh, no. I'm talking about, "they look like animals." While you were enjoying being officer snarky of the language police you apparently forgot your reading comprehension skills in the squad car. I said nothing about "strong as an ox" or any other nonsence like that. I said, "they look like animals." If you can't see the lack of humanity in a statement like that, than I'm wasting my time.

I hardly think it's an arbitrary to say you shouldn't ever say a black female athlete looks like an animal. Seems simple. Kind of like it's not an arbitrary rule to remember: Read the complete post and engage your brain before you post and sound like a complete dick.

That shouldn't be hard for you to follow.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

DanJoaquinOz — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 08:09:54 -0000

Interestingly, another Australian tennis commentator, Roger Rasheed - who is also a famous and very successful coach of tp seeded male players - got in heaps of trouble last year from the public, prominent feminists and fellow sportscasters, for his overly enthusiastic praise, on-air, of Serena's ample curves.

The controversy over his practically drooling objectification of Serena was treated with enormous grace and great good humour by both William sisters, who are favourites with the Australian public and media, for their astonishing skills, personal style, intelligence and wit, on and off the tennis court. If I was Mr Woods I'd regard that far wider held genuine adoration as vastly superior to either one commenter's indifference to their beauty, or another's leering appreciation.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

unclesmedley — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 03:31:53 -0000

@wb44: "teaching mofo's that in NEVER acceptable to refer to a female athlete as an animal is a VERY important issue in terms of female self-worth. Teaching people that it's 100% unacceptable to refer to any black woman."

Setting aside the nearly impenetrable syntax in you psycho-babbling kvetch...

Cat quick? Graceful as a gazelle? Strong as an ox?

Harmless, apt animal metaphors abound in sports writing--for both genders and all races... Stop complicating matters with arbitrary rules.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

unclesmedley — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 03:16:26 -0000

The silliest aspect of this topic is how seriously some folks are taking it. This ain't exactly Tuskegee syphilis, and getting all Eric Dyson about it shows a marked lack of perspective.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

s.o.c. — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:37:52 -0000

It's not their job to be pretty though i think both are. Serena is more conventional pretty (or as unconventionally conventional as one can get) but the list talks about 'the most beautiful'.....and dang Venus is beautiful; athletic, graceful, intelligent, articulate, gifted.......*gush*

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Just Karl — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:37:10 -0000

Now I understand the meaning of the phrase "tennis hot". The term tennis is obviously a negative qualifier to the adjective hot. I'd say we're talking about a correction factor of 2-2.5 on the Bo Derek scale. Sharapova is therefore about a 7.5-8. Most of those girls are 5s. That's about where I'd put Venus and Serena. Bad skin and big bones. FWIW, I've always thought Venus was the better looking of the two.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Stacy — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:04:21 -0000

"And frankly, who gets a shorter shrift than Steffi Graf (22 singles titles?)."

Steffi Graf is German, dawg. She just likes short, bald, American men.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Hlem — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:56:43 -0000

"it offends me that my standards of beauty are not recognized or validated in professional sports"

Waaaaaaah. Make me feel special!

Also, the fact is that the vast majority of people are not beautiful, never will be so, and just have to deal with that somehow, as much as some would like to molly-coddle everyone's precious little ego.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Joel — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:31:38 -0000

I'd also like to add that a much more compelling case for white racism in the tennis world can be made in the form of the U.S. tennis world's failure to truly embrace Serena and Venus' success.

US athletes in the non-major sports (Football, Basketball, Baseball) need to be astoundingly great to generate public attention. Chris Evert won 18 majors singles and had a fierce rivalry with Martina Navratilova (who also won 18 majors). Even then, I don't think they got the same press/adulation as Venus (7) and Serena (8).

And frankly, who gets a shorter shrift than Steffi Graf (22 singles titles?).

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Sorn — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:43:50 -0000

I can't speak for society, because I'm not society.

I do know that I've never seen a beautiful woman fail to gain appreciation. Regardless of her race, her class, or anything else a beautiful girl is always beautiful, and always appreciated by someone.

Not everyone's opinions about what is beautiful are the same. This is to the good. The truth is that no fashion mag, no commentator, no amount of advertising can shape our view of what is beautiful unless we allow it to.

Conceptions of beauty are like stereotypes they can only shape our opinions about what is beautiful unless we accept them.

There is no formula, nothing says that X is hot but Y is hotter. Truth be told I know girls that tip scales that are more attractive than girls that only eat half a salad at a time.

After all this ain't exactly rocket science. Beauty is something you wear, it means being comfortable in your own skin, and not being fundamentally insecure about who and what you are.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

tg — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:03:14 -0000

Venus is not at all pretty, where as Serena has a nice face.

But Serena, and to a lesser extent, are far too muscular to be considered beautiful women. Men generally find excess muscles to be a turn off.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

mark — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:42:03 -0000

@AMT

Couldn't agree more. The simple truth is that skin color is one of the more granular and easily agreed upon descriptors when one is talking about a minority color. Just is. If someone had orange irises that person would be "you know that cat with the orange eyes?" Actually, if that person were black they would be "that black cat with the orange eyes," but that's just America for ya.

Anyhoo...

Re: Integrating The Burning House

AMT — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:07:35 -0000

The woman on the show 'Bones' who is the lab director something like that. Wow! Foxy lady!

Totally agree.

Re: Integrating The Burning House

Kiss the Donkey — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:06:59 -0000

...the original list itself is so much more annoying, indicative not only of the asinine objectification of female athletes, but of the inability of many white men (who, let's not forget, still occupy a position of social, economic, and political power in the world) to recognize non-white women as beautiful.

Someone please help me understand what serious social/political/economic problem is solved when powerful white men view beautiful non-white women to be just a "beautiful" as beautiful white woman.

And even if that happens, the not-so-beautiful ones are still not-so-beautiful, right? And still have to live in the same world they're in now?