The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Incredible

Re: Incredible

Rainy — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:52:17 -0000

The Secret Service and the FBI have no problem hiring people who are not on an ego trip or have anger problems. If police departments across the country embraced how the government hires these people then I think things would be a lot better.

Re: Incredible

The Pop View — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:59:44 -0000

Matt Yglesias has a similar post today along there lines.

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/07/bias-racism-being-a-jerk-and-abuse-of-power.php

Re: Incredible

bradrick — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:06:59 -0000

David Milch has a fairly grim take on this -- you can hear it in an interview here. (Sorry, I don't know of a free version.)

Essentially what he says is that we -- more or less law-abiding society -- have struck a devil's bargain. In exchange for order, we have agreed to turn a blind eye to what we know is by its nature and of necessity a very brutal and dirty business. We have agreed to cede a vast province of authority to a group of people in exchange for two things: first, that, in public, they enact a pantomime of deference to due process and temperance and regulation; second, and most importantly (for society), that they keep things -- crime; bad behavior; danger; what have you -- under control. For our part we have agreed not to ask too many questions about what they do (unless and until its spills over in the public realm, which is a violation of the first term of the contract), and we've agreed not to ask too many questions about what it -- the job -- does to them.

Milch's view -- and it sounds reasonably accurate to me -- is that there is an inherent tension that we resolve by essentially ignoring it. In truth, there is no way to police human society without a certain degree of brutality; it can't be done. The job we ask the police to do, like the job we ask soldiers to do, is violent, dangerous, and a little sociopathic by definition. It can't be done without deception, threats, intimidation, occasional acts of outright violence. As such it's soulkilling not just to those to whom its done -- many of whom, it must be remembered, really *are* bad folk -- but also to those who do it, and to those of us on whose behalf it's done. That the violence inherent in the role police play can always be controlled or contained is a fiction we insist on because it lets us all sleep at night. In reality, it can't be. It slips and seeps. We try to keep this seepage minimal, and we try to hide it when it happens; but now and then it gets out for everyone to see.

This, blended with some of the more specific reasons others have cited, is why cops are cut so much slack when they f#ck up. We'd rather not dig too deeply into the dark corners of that bargain.

Re: Incredible

Bruins2Lakers — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:38:12 -0000

Joel hit the nail squarely--apply the same principal in teaching, too. Incomptency rises to it highest level.

We just went through this in Inglewood, Ca. Police csare the hell out of a resident banging on the door in the middle of the night. Dude--who was a postal employee in my neighborhood and a damn nice one, at that--answered the door like many folks here might--with a .45 drawn. Cops fire first ask questions later. Investigation and much marching/speeching by local activists.

Wouldn't you know--the same trigger-happy cop was investigated months previously for similar act. The beat goes on...

Re: Incredible

Joel — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:47:20 -0000

Why aren't bad cops fired? It's the Peter Principle in action. If an incompetent supervisor starts firing his unqualified cops, guess who's next on the chopping block?

Re: Incredible

Plinko — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:04:56 -0000

Whoops, forgot to finish that sentence:

"while saying that investigating our own former leaders for torturing 'detainees' is just political or too divisive. We gotta keep moving forward."

Re: Incredible

Plinko — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:03:07 -0000

That's an important point and I was heartened by it for a while.

But, look back at Cynic's excellent post above and realize; it's easy for those police officers to be disgusted with this guy and say things like 'these guys make us all look bad'. They don't know this guy.

They don't care about him, so it's easy for them to push him off the island. They didn't go to the union picnic with him and meet his wife and kids, they never comiserated about the pay and looking forward to big pension with benefits at age 50. They never have to worry about that county's DA's office or Internal Affairs and how they'll be treated in a case where they are at-risk and the facts are actually gray vs. clear cut here. This is no different than people being up in arms about Iranian protesters being detained and probably tortured while saying that investigating our own former leaders for torturing 'detainees'. Easy to criticize someone far away, let's see how they do when it's them under threat.

The incentives are all wrong. They need to be fixed.

Re: Incredible

JY — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0000

I share your frustration with these sort of statistics. But bear in mind that when you start to drill down things become much grayer. Here in NY the city will settle with just about anyone for just about anything to avoid the expense in dollars and manpower of going to court. Were a majority of those suits justified? Maybe. Maybe not. The dollar amount spent to settle doesn't answer that question. As to oversight and civilian complaints, we have CCRB here in NY which is a civilian run oversight board. It is incredibly easy to file a complaint and get it substantiated, even if it has no basis in reality. It's not unheard of for an officer to have a CCRB complaint filed against him/her for an incident that occured when he/she wasn't even working. Figure that one out!

I don't mean to dismiss your frustration, especially not knowing your personal experience, but be wary of drawing conclusions based on complaint and settlement statistics.

Re: Incredible

Doctor Cleveland — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:25:47 -0000

Yes. Fajitagate was worse because on of the three off-duty cops mugging a guy for his Taco Bell (seriously) was the son of a deputy chief. Bad, bad times.

Re: Incredible

Doctor Cleveland — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:23:24 -0000

Yes. I'm not trying to justify police corruption. Nor their in-group mentality. I'm trying to explain it. I also don't think contempt for the rest of humanity is a good thing for cops to have, but many have it and there are reasons they develop it.

But I will say that at this point completely rooting out the culture of corruption in any large city force (or large metro area force) would be an enormous undertaking.

Re: Incredible

sv — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:56:25 -0000

great ideas. has there been any movement or discussion about this outside of academic circles? it strikes me as the starting point for figuring out some real common-sense reforms.

also, it's crazy how much good real health care reform could (theoretically) do.

Re: Incredible

sv — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:42:02 -0000

This is so right. It's about the degree of power they wield over us all, and the way in which the default expectation almost seems to be that you must show DEFERENCE towards the police, if you're smart and a good citizen. I hate that.

Re: Incredible

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:24:52 -0000

No, I just ban people I don't agree with. But you already knew that.

Re: Incredible

the_ill — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:01:53 -0000

this anecdote plays nicely into this story and the one regarding the incident in cambridge:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/benefits-of-doubts.html

Re: Incredible

Acromion — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:48:25 -0000

@Skipskate

My brother would get harassed by the cops constantly during his hippy phase, but being white, there's always that safety net there of white judges and lawyers who would see him as a non-threatening white teenager.

Not trying to say all cops, judges, and lawyers are racists to the core and don't value fair application of the law. In fact, I think most are passionate about serving and protecting.

It just takes a few to spoil the whole bunch.

Re: Incredible

Carrington — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:17:32 -0000

Meh.... it's a dangerous job, but corruption spreads. Too easy, and too tempting, for organized crime to get a rap on a cop.

In-group stuff is all well and good until someone in your group shoots you in the back.

There's a reason some nations' response to this kind of crime is so draconian.

Re: Incredible

Carrington — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:04:30 -0000

It's interesting to think about American policing in light of the BBC's report comparing social mobility.

One thing to note, aside from the power hunger, is that relatively limited social mobility in the United States would tend to make policing a lower-middle class/working class job, rather than a lower-middle class job for those who are good at it.

So not only do you get the folks who'd like power via a badge and a gun, but also the folks who'd like money, but know that policing's the best gig they can get.

Re: Incredible

Sime — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:33:11 -0000

Italians out there, help me get over my reactions because I love Italy the country.

I'm only to a small part Italian (grandmother) but I know the country a little bit. I'm not sure if you really think that Tom Tancredo or the people in your neighbourhood are racist because of their Italianità.

However, if you went to Italy and talked about race with all kinds of people, you would probably come back with the impression that Italians are more racist than the average white American. You would hear things the average white American wouldn't say. It would not all be hate speech, mainly offensive remarks and dim-witted jokes. That's Europe. There are hundreds of reasons why racism is different in Europe than in America but I want to stress one in particular, as it relates to something that was discussed on this blog in the recent days. There are no Al Sharptons in Europe. When Silvio Berlusconi (northern-Italian, not part of the working class) commented on Obama being "suntanned" some Italians posted pictures of themselves in blackface as a sign of solidarity. There was no ill intention, but I doubt that a lot of black Americans appreciated it all that much. Racism in Europe is mainly fought, discussed and settled by white people. The reason why more and more people stop talking about nègres or neger is because white people have decided amongst themselves that it's no longer appropriate. But in all the discussions about racism, some white person will at some point say: "Ok. I think that's enough now. We have more important things to care about, so let's move on". There are no black "ambassadors" who have political power and make noise as long as they want to.

Re: Incredible

Malcolm — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:55:45 -0000

You are probably doing a better job as a cop on this blog. I like the way you take out/delete opinions you don't agree with.

Re: Incredible

Rillion — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:49:15 -0000

That's unknowable because you change that fact and it could change other things. Perhaps if the races were reversed the clerk would have erased the tape and then it would have just been the cop's word against the word of the victim.

Without the video it's routine and would just be buried. Video makes all the difference, like that video of the cop tasering the 70 year grandmother during the traffic stop. Without the video it doesn't become that big a story.

Re: Incredible

Faivel — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:07:41 -0000

The Agitator is amazing.

Re: Incredible

danindc — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:02:27 -0000

Can you imagine if the races were reversed? It would be a bigger story than the moon landing.

Re: Incredible

Adolphus — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:41:04 -0000

And I forgot to leave links for stories on this unit. There are so many. Go to the Philly INquirer page and search for their ring leader's name "Cujdik." More articles than you have time to read.

Re: Incredible

Adolphus — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:38:24 -0000

I see I am really late to this thread so I am not sure how many people will read it but here goes.

Radley Balko chronicles incidents like this all the time, focusing mostly on SWAT raids gone bad, but highlighting incidents like this as well. He blogs at http://www.theagitator.com/ and is a must read, at least until you start to assume every cop is about to throw you down and beat you. Then take a break. His recent post at the Daily Beast on Puppycides is a winner.

I mention this to highlight another Philadelphia cop story. Balko has been updating his readers fairly frequently on a "rogue" narcotics unit that has been, among other things, shaking down grocery stores run by recent immigrants. Under the guise of enforcing some law that prohibits selling small zip lock baggies to drug dealers they have allegedly stolen money and food, trashed their store, and ultimately arrested the owners. What's striking is that before they do this they are caught on tape disconnecting the security cameras. So there is no tape, so no proof, but there is tape of them stopping the tapping. Clever no?

I wonder if that is a reaction to this case. I would have to go back and look at the time line.

Re: Incredible

Skipskatte — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:44:20 -0000

There is certainly something to what you've said. There are a lot of stupid, asshat cops roaming around out there. But your attitude towards the police you are dealing with also matters a great deal. I've dealt with my share of arrogant cops, but I can also usually cool the situation by "giving the baby it's bottle" and, basically, kissing ass. (Be polite, smile, keep your hands visible, etc.) I've been arrested quite a few times (deservedly so) but even then, you can usually strike up SOME rapport with the cops involved IF you make them feel safe in their authority. (Yelling and screaming at a cop never did anyone any good . . . ever.) Also, there is difference in the perceived threat of the police and the actual threat.

An Ohio State Patrolman I know told me a story of a day when he was out on patrol on a peaceful highway. He was driving along, enjoying the scenery and the tranquility of nature when, out of nowhere, the car in front of him swerved off the highway onto a side street at fifty miles an hour, lost control, and ended up in a ditch. He was puzzled by it, because the car had been in front of him for a good half hour and the driver hadn't done anything erratic until now.

When he stopped, a woman jumped out of the car and started screaming at the patrolman. "You son of a bitch," she yelled. "You've been following us for a half an hour. My son just got his learner's permit, and you scared him to death, so he tried to turn without putting on the brakes!"

This is a situation where the mere presence of the police has jacked up the tension level. My patrolman friend hadn't even been paying attention to the car in front of him, but for that young driver is was sheer terror. And most of us have experienced that, at one point or another. Who doesn't get nervous when you're driving and there's a cop behind you?

It's yet another example of why the police and the people they are there to protect really need to be a lot closer . . . physically and psychologically. Even the jackass cops you describe would be more likely to moderate their attitude if they dealt with the same people in the same neighborhood day in and day out.