The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Ann — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:41:01 -0000

jegmont -

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I apologize if that's what I did. Debates like this help everyone to sort out what they really think, and how they're seeing things differently from others (sometimes the source of the difference isn't obvious at first).

We certainly agree that this guy shouldn't have just been allowed to continue serving until something happened.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

muzzybelly — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:18:46 -0000

1. It was clearly religiously motivated. Whether it was religiously caused is a far different question. That's the question that is more important to most of the claims being made by right-wingers.

2. It wasn't terrorism by any useful definition of the term. This guy is a terrorist in exactly the same way that Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Manson were terrorists. If you want to extend the word "terrorist" to cover these types of events, be my guest. But be aware that my resistance is not ideological, but conceptual. It harms our understanding of what makes actual terrorists tick.

3. Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground were terrorists. So was the Unabomber. Just so you know this isn't an ideological thing.

4. Obama was not involved in any of this. If your complaint was that he didn't immediately stop everything to announce the event, fine. I don't really have an opinion one way or another. But even if Obama deserves criticism, he has taken so much unjust criticism that this doesn't even dent the meter.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

mischief — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:16:30 -0000

Any person who regards belief in the sacredness of objects as proof of untrustworthiness -- is untrustworthy.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

ravenshrike — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:09:30 -0000

@ jegmont

He's quite correct that political correctness led to this tragedy. Of course, he's completely wrong as to the type of political correctness. The thing that elevated this incident to the level of tragedy and not simply a terrorist incident was the number of deaths, especially considering the location. All real tragedies have an element of comedy to them. In this case, trained soldiers who in any other situation are expected to be able to defend themselves with their weapons, are disarmed on CONUS US Army bases solely for the sake of political correctness. That was the ONLY thing that allowed Nidal Hasan to slaughter army personnel like cattle. Any remotely sane policy would have kept the number of deaths under a dozen, and a properly mandated policy of carrying weapons would have stopped it after one or two.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:03:55 -0000

Iowahawk has the definitive roundup:

NEWSWEEK:INEVITABLY, ANOTHER SOLDIER SNAPS

Distraught pacifist conscientious objector tormented by horrors of war, as far as you know

Newsroom experts: stress, violence, stupidity, tragedy a way of life for GIs

LAT: Fort Hood: Another Black Eye For Teabagger Movement

Connecting the dots: 2006-8 Tax returns show anti-government extremist carefully itemized deductions

MSNBC:Investigation: Ft. Hood Killer Had Access to Fox, Talk Radio, Right-Wing Blogs

Receipts show killer's apartment had cable

'03 Nissan registered to Hassan had AM radio

Defiant Palin rejects calls to apologize

Boston Globe:

Hassan: NRA poster boy

GUN GOES ON RAMPAGE IN TEXAS

Experts say shootings could have easily been prevented if guns did not exist; others argue bullets must share blame

Gun facts: scary, loud, shoot people

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Martin — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:43:35 -0000

Eh. It didn't penetrate the thick layer of stupidity the first time. Let's try this again:

"One wonders why the far more devout Byzantium lasted another 1100 years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire#Neglect_of_Byzantium

Others such as John Julius Norwich, despite their admiration for his furthering of historical methodology, consider Gibbon's views on the Byzantine Empire flawed and blame him somewhat for the lack of interest shown in the subject throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. This view might well be admitted by Gibbon himself: "But it is not my intention to expatiate with the same minuteness on the whole series of the Byzantine history.

There's a pretty big section devoted to demolishing Gibbon's theory. This is just the section concerning the problem I had already mentioned.

Oh, and the book's name is "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

Finally, Gibbon's book is more than 200 years old. You should really look for fresher, less thoroughly debunked sources. But let's be honets, it's not like you read the 6 volumes anyway...

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:33:56 -0000

Also, the wiki you cited seems to be a bit fringey, with lots of bad links. It's impossible to tell what exactly happened with BNL, so it doesn't like the U.S. supplied even 1% of Iraq's financing, either.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:13:34 -0000

Maybe you missed this part:

These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales.

Or this:

During the Iran–Iraq War, the Soviet Union sold or gave the greatest amount of military equipment and supplies to Iraq,[1] as well as providing military advisers. Their public position, especially in the early phases of the war, was officially neutral to both sides, although they clandestinely provided a smaller amount of support to Iran. Later in the war, they more visibly supported Iraq, but still maintained an official position of neutrality.

France was the second greatest supplier to Iraq, and tended to supply higher-technology equipment than the Soviets.[2] This does not mean that many other nations did not either provide materials or encourage client states to do so, or that there was not a brisk business by private arms traders.

At the start of the Iran–Iraq War, the Soviet Union stopped overt, and most covert, arms shipments to Iraq while Iraq was on the offensive, for the next 18 months.[3]. This may have been less because the Soviet Union wanted to help Iran, and more due to Moscow's irritation with Saddam, who had refused the Soviets more access to Iraqi ports in exchange for arms. Nevertheless, Soviet prestige was at stake if its arms were defeated, so the Soviets began to provide spare parts and ammunition. They later would replace complete vehicles and weapons on a one-to-one exchange basis.[4]

Or this

Iraq's main financial backers were the oil-rich Persian Gulf states, most notably Saudi Arabia ($30.9 billion), Kuwait ($8.2 billion) and the United Arab Emirates ($8 billion).[4]

Or this

French support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq war was an important element to strengthen Iraq for the Iran-Iraq war. Starting in roughly 1975,[1] leading up to the Iran-Iraq War, as well as the war itself, the greatest amount of military equipment came to Iraq from the Soviet Union, but France was probably second, and generally provided higher-technology equipment than the Soviets. [2]

Or this

Italy provided substantial supplies to Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War. Its greatest impact, however, was financial, with the U.S. branch of the state-owned, largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) in Italy providing several billion dollars in funding for Iraqi military procurement. Italy also was a primary supplier to the Iraqi nuclear program, although that was not of direct effect on the Iran–Iraq War.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:07:56 -0000

The United States sold Iraq over $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war.

Sigh. Did you finish 5th grade? You do know what percent of Iraq's total arms that comes out to... right?

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:05:16 -0000

Except that my statement is, you know, true.

If you think the statement "It has been invaded when another Muslim country, Iraq, was financially supported by a Christian nation," makes sense when 99% of Iraq's arms and over 90% of their aid came from other states, congrats, you are as stupid as Martin.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:39:30 -0000

Sigh. Try to engage your limited intellect at least to the point of following the argument. It was over the statement "Right-wing terrorism is far less common and far more ostracized than left-wing terrorism in the US."

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:36:02 -0000

Well, at least have the fucking courage to spell out what you think should be done.

I have. We should have frank discussions about the problem of Islamic violence.

Of course, that requires getting past this moronic cult of political correctness that says we have to pretend there is no problem with Islamic violence.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:28:39 -0000

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:24:55 -0000

LOLOLLOOL!

Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." Pick it up sometime.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:21:21 -0000

This coming from the recognized king of stupidity on this blog.

Projecting a little, are we?

Nothing democratic about Christianity.

Riiight, it's just a coincidence that liberal democracy emerged from the Christian countries, and is still strongly correlated to Christianity today.

You seem more a nationalistic xenophobe looking for a label to cover your tribalism.

You seem like a moron who labels empirical facts "xenophobia" to give yourself a false sense of moral superiority. "Ooh, look how inclusive I am! No tribalism for me! Except my tribe of PC moral relativists!"

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Martin — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:13:01 -0000

No. I actually read it.

The United States sold Iraq over $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war.

The Iraqgate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying largely on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989.

And, of course

The full extent of these covert transfers is not yet known. Teicher's files on the subject are held securely at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and many other Reagan era documents that could help shine new light on the subject remain classified.

Oh, and also:

On May 25 1994, the U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

Now, if you read these articles and wrote

The extent of our "support" was a handshake from Rumsfeld, a few kind words from the CIA, and a few loan guarantees.

Then, congratulations, you are as stupid as TallDave.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:12:07 -0000

Yep, and they can't even figure out why anyone would object.

Instead they accuse anyone who dares notice a correlation between radical Islam and violence of wanting to violate the rights of all Muslims.

These people give new meaning to the term "ideologically blinkered."

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Martin — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:58:09 -0000

Which makes it unsurprising that you insist on being dumb. Of course it matters. If you want to stop a phenomenon, you should know its causes.

This is what puzzles me the most about these guys. If you believe that Islam is a religion in which followers are required to wage war with the West, well, then we should simply forbid Muslims from entering our Armed Forces. Maybe even deport them all.

Of course, no one actually spells these things out. Rather, they say stuff like "we shouldn't worship the God of diversity". Well, at least have the fucking courage to spell out what you think should be done.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Martin — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:50:23 -0000

There is a smart right, but is has been drowned by chicken-hawks, religious fanatics and loons. Whenever I see the GOP actually standing for small government, fiscal responsibility and the free-market, I will be the first to sign up.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Martin — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:43:16 -0000

The Dark Ages occurred largely because pacifistic Christianity enervated the Roman martial tradition to the point that the old Roman provinces were fielding a tenth of their former strength and Christians were less willing than their pagan ancestors to commit the atrocities that held the empire together.

LOLOLOLOL

One wonders why the far more devout Byzantium lasted another 1100 years.

Of all the theories about the Fall the Roman Empire, death by Christian pacifism is by far the most ridiculous one I've heard. Thanks for the laugh.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

Nimed — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:32:01 -0000

Oh dear God you're stupid.

This coming from the recognized king of stupidity on this blog. Or perhaps President? Anyway, people call you STD (stupid TallDave), so I imagine you have a rather long tradition of being exceedingly stupid around these parts.

For God's sake, THAT WAS HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.

Hundreds of years ago? Really? LOL

Are you saying that Christianity is more democratic than Islam
Clearly.

Shrug. Actually, secularism was the main driver for democratization around the world. Nothing democratic about Christianity.

First off, I'm a libertarian.

There's more to being a libertarian than being in favor of the free market. You seem more a nationalistic xenophobe looking for a label to cover your tribalism. There's nothing particularly libertarian about that.

Second, my point was that pragmatically it doesn't matter WHY Islam is more violent

Which makes it unsurprising that you insist on being dumb. Of course it matters. If you want to stop a phenomenon, you should know its causes.

But, of course, our problem with Islamic domestic terrorism is vastly smaller than our problem with just about any other source of domestic terrorism, which makes the whole discussion about "suicide by PC" ludicrous.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:07:00 -0000

Sure you are. You're more than happy to bash "The Stupid Right" and "wingnuts."

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:02:24 -0000

Did you somehow miss the MAIN article on support for Iraq?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_combatants_in_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:55:59 -0000

You need to study your history better. The Dark Ages occurred largely because pacifistic Christianity enervated the Roman martial tradition to the point that the old Roman provinces were fielding a tenth of their former strength and Christians were less willing than their pagan ancestors to commit the atrocities that held the empire together.

It's silly, and patently false, to claim that Islam is intrinsically a religion of violence and Christianity a religion of peace

It's not just silly and false but incredibly obtuse to pretend Islam does not currently have a disproportionate problem with violence.

Re: Hasan Investigated, Cleared

TallDave — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:45:08 -0000

Again, your ignorance is astounding. Iraq spent TENS OF BILLIONS on arms from different countries. Did you see a lot of American-made tanks and planes in their military?

Iraq's army was primarily equipped with weaponry it had purchased from the Soviet Union and its satellites in the preceding decade. During the war, it purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced equipment from France, the People's Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources.[1] The United States sold Iraq over $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales

And yes, more of their support came from Sunni Gulf states, no the U.S.

Iraq's main financial backers were the oil-rich Persian Gulf states, most notably Saudi Arabia ($30.9 billion), Kuwait ($8.2 billion) and the United Arab Emirates ($8 billion).[4]

The extent of our "support" was a handshake from Rumsfeld, a few kind words from the CIA, and a few loan guarantees.