The Atlantic - Latest Comments in For the first time in my adult life...

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

SapphireCate — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:10:28 -0000

@Curious george

I see what you're saying and I still respectfully disagree. The world is a lot more subtle than perhaps either of us are painting it, but one of the problems with blog comments is that that aspect is hard to explain. I was not trying to suggest that someone looked MO in the eye and said 'you cannot work now' but that the social stresses (and they may be unconscious, internalised or just so universally accepted as to be unnoticeable) on women who work are different. I wasn't trying to paint women as shrinking violets in the face of the oh so hard work world, but to refer quickly to one of the ways those stresses play out in socially acceptable ways. Regarding the whole opt out kerfuffle, I point you to these two excellent posts:

http://www.feministing.com/archives/005948.html

http://www.feministing.com/archives/009856.html

And I am not judging your choice. I am just saying that for a lot of women there is a lot more to the choice than 'i want to spend more time with my friends' and that might include thoughts like 'my husband is moving into a new job which will take me away from my work' (i don't have the links for this, but women far more frequently take a pay cut/ quit work to support their male partner's career choices than vice versa); 'my friends who stay home with their children act morally superior to me because i work'; 'i don't have the energy to work AND do housework AND take care of my children' (women typically do more house work and the most repetitive/least rewarding jobs when living with male partners. men also take a less active role in child care); 'i can work part time but won't make enough for child care or i can not work and take care of the kids for free' (inflexible working hours drive primary care givers from the work place like sheep from a wolf and women are predominantly the primary care givers).

I am not saying it's any less of a choice to leave work in any of these situations but that that choice must be seen to be embedded in a variety of socially significant conditions which affect women far more than they affect men. That's the root of the feminist commentary and I promise it's not a judgement on you or your choices but on a patriarchal society which curtails and biases the choices women with children are able to make before they even realise they have to make a choice.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Curoius George — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:37:17 -0000

@ Sapphire Cate

In following BO to washington she has lost that choice to work and is forced to stay home because 'the first lady's office IS a job'

But see, the way I look at it, being that she is who she is, obviously intelligent, capable, and so forth, I can't say she is being forced to do anything. I am assuming that she and her husband sat down before the horse ever left the barn and discussed all this, and came to some agreement that they could live with. Neither of the Obamas are dumb people, I can't imagine that they just jumped into this without deliberating and deciding that they could live with the outcomes. She has chosen to support her husband in this way--and apparently is comfortable with the way things have fallen out for her and her family. So for that, I say, it's none of anybody's business but theirs. It's a choice that she's made, from what I can tell she seems to be comfortable with it, so...whatever. I gotta live my life and she gotta live hers. And I'm not the least bit worried that she will get the short end of the stick. I can't imagine that as a very successful attorney she lacks for negotiating skills, and don't think for a minute that she got bamboozled into accepting something that she did not want.

Like the opt-out revolution (again, tm) which the NY Times made such an issue of (women CHOOSING to leave high-paying careers to be home with the kids) in the end it doesn't look so much like choice (downsizing almost invariably hits women earlier and harder) as post-facto rationalisation ('my job's on the line, I'd rather nurture my children than deal with the stress of job-seeking').

That's your assessment of the situation, and I don't know if you can see it, but really does sound like judging other people's choices. Those women are individuals, with brains, I presume, and I (or you, or anyone else), with all due respect, cannot possibly know what is REALLY behind their decisions. I've seen similar articles, don't remember this one specifically, but I like to give those women more credit than saying that generally they're a bunch of shrinking violets running away from the harsh realities of the workplace. Maybe some of them are, but we're talking about thousands of women, each with individual situations, who again, presumably thought long and hard before they made a decision, and made the one that was right for them and their families. It might not be right for you or I or anyone else, and it might not even be right for them at another stage in their lives, (circumstances are not static), but it's theirs to make. It may "look like" something else to you, but maybe it truly and honestly is that some women, when given a choice, will choose a road that is different from yours, for their own reasons. And that's okay. And they don't owe any of the rest of the sisterhood an explanation.

Women who stay at home do face unique challenges, I know them firsthand. Some women face pressure to make this choice, but, also, women often face pressure in the opposite direction as well. Unfortunately, we have a hard time recognizing the validity of the other choice, and just letting people (particularly women) do what works for THEM.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Nina — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:23:17 -0000

This is so cool!!! I'm gonna start posting videos on YouTube of me and my activist mom discussing stuff! What a crazy good idea. Thank you both of you!

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

SapphireCate — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:54:08 -0000

@ Curious George

As a feminist (and a very proud and loud one at that) I can say that I certainly agree with your point that CHOICE is at the centre of the issue. Women (and men!!) need to have the choice to work in personally and intellectually fulfilling careers or to redirect that energy in other ways (ie, raising a huddle of kids). However your reading of the feminist (tm) critique of MO's position is different to mine.

I see a woman who has chosen not to stay home but to work in a field in which she is both well-trained and very experienced. In following BO to washington she has lost that choice to work and is forced to stay home because 'the first lady's office IS a job' (albeit unpaid) and 'it's time to focus on her children' as if she had ignored them up until then. Like the opt-out revolution (again, tm) which the NY Times made such an issue of (women CHOOSING to leave high-paying careers to be home with the kids) in the end it doesn't look so much like choice (downsizing almost invariably hits women earlier and harder) as post-facto rationalisation ('my job's on the line, I'd rather nurture my children than deal with the stress of job-seeking').

I need to emphasise that I _AM NOT_ denigrating your choice or the choice of any other woman to stay home, but a frank recognition of the social and economic pressures (day care is expensive! women typically earn less than men!) which face women (single or partnered) with children is necessary in discussing that choice. It is very rare (especially these days) that in a 2 parent home a single income is enough to raise children and if you are in that privileged a situation you should be thanking your lucky stars.

What I ask, Curious George, is that just because people question MO's motivations in leaving her job (and losing out on all the attenuating benefits such as personal fulfilment, a high salary and seniority/experience) and note the pressures our society puts on women to be primary care-giver/supporter of husband's career to detriment of our own does not mean you or your choices are being judged. America is not a country with equal opportunities and for every woman who chooses of her own free will to be a stay-home parent knowing her family will have the financial support necessary there are several others grappling with the expectations placed on them, their financial situation, their own desires (whether to work or not) and the conflicts they all entail.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:31:55 -0000

Even on the internets, my Dad is looking to put me on blast. It's like I'm 12 again, and he's showing up at school:)

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

W Paul Coates — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:40:47 -0000

.....Wait, did your dad just pronounce your name "tan-ah-HA-see"? I thought it was "tan-EE-see". And someone somewhere called you "tan-ee-HEE-see" in a video... WTF, man? I thought I knew you...

AL,

His folks pronounce Ta-nehisi as Ta-na-hi-see. His name was given to me by Dr Ben, and that's the way he and most folks that i know pronounce it.

It's possible you heard me sound it out as you say but we've always done it phonetically. We just being black folks running down the road and trying to catch up with our Nubian roots.

SeanH, rikyrah, Karen and all...

Thanks for all the great props. I read all of you guys, and get a tremendous amount of information from all of you, and this tremendous community of learners the TC has gathered. Fortunately I’ve lived long enough to be honored to get lesson from a child, now grown, and his community of friends.

Although I comment seldom, trust that I never fail to read this blog and your insightful comments. I love to go toe to toe with TC when we disagree, and just as much love to complement him when he takes me places that I would never have gone. He is so honest with his inner self that it just blows me away.

Anyway love to all

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

hamletta — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:30:14 -0000

Curious George, I'm with you.

In addition, it's important to remember First Lady is a full-time job; the gig does come with a staff and all. In addition to the wifely/hostessy/pretty-dress-wearing duties, a First Lady is expected to at least have A Cause.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

cd — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:55:57 -0000

props to the atlantic and props to your and your pops for this. Good stuff. Real good stuff.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Curious George — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:27:30 -0000

@ Michelle

I have been torn and still am at some of the complaints of this nature with regard to MO--and I think for me this is part and parcel of some of my frustrations in general with the feminist movement (tm).

She has been receiving flak from some quarters for doing the "traditional" thing--and maybe I'm a little sensitive to this because it reflects a choice I've made personally--but for all the talk about giving women choices, it seems that the only acceptable choice is that they choose the "have it all" route. Career, kids, etc., in that order and always. I am a college educated woman who ended up being a stay at home mom, and this is something that one hears a lot.

While in fact she is a public figure, and naturally her choices will be scrutinized, I think that even for those of us who are not in her shoes we as women tear each other down for not making the "right" choice--ignoring the fact the only "right" or "best" choice is what works for her and her family at this stage in their lives. Before her duty to portray a certain image to and on behalf of the rest of us, she has the duty to play the role that will best serve her own interests and those of her family.

It seems to be, for many people, the idea of a smart, successful, motivated woman to spend some time mostly focused on the needs of her children is blasphemous. Not that you're saying this--but I keep hearing this from certain quarters and it's tired. It seems that for many folks, the only type of woman worth being is a "career" woman. Family is acceptable, but only to the extent that it will always come second to the more important things in life such as career.

I understand all about being locked into certain choices exclusively, which is why I am torn...but it seems that we've let the pendulum swing to the other extreme and to my mind that's just as unhealthy and closed minded as the opposite extreme. Women need to be free to do what best serves their needs and the needs of their families, whether it be going to work, staying home with the kids, or alternating between the two.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Robert M — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:19:22 -0000

The concerns about Michelle Obama is a fascination with a totally unknown reality(AfricanAmerican/not Hilliary/ivy league/lawyer/mother w/ children). The complaints about her discussing what she doesn't like about her husbands habits but she put's up w/(unstated because I love him and care more for the total relationship) is something that all of us married, in a longterm relationship or just woke up w/ this morning because we were consoling/enjoying out football team deal with. She just happens to have forum larger than ...where do you gossip about... So if you still wear underpants you still put them on one leg at a time and your apble of recognizing that so does everyone else get over it.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

TKOEd — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:18:23 -0000

@ KarenZ

Not to speak for the man but I think TNC probably meant the public hard part is over. She will have to deal with all that stuff but mostly in private I think.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

JC — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:24:56 -0000

"I read a lot of Michelle Obama profiles, in the course of writing this piece, and one thing stuck out--folks were shocked about how much she ribbed her husband. There was a subtext that implied that she wasn't very lady-like. I kept wondering whether the reporters had met any women, ever, or whether they'd ever watched an episode of Alice."

This is a difference between the public face and the private face. Everyone expects that a partner rib their other in private, but in public, there is this weird expectation that you be quiet and supportive. Especially for wives. I don't think this is a white/black issue, it's more of a male/female issue, in society.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

KarenZ — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:11:52 -0000

I'm developing a crush on your father. You all have to do more of these deals. You should take him on a book tour -- you could be a sort of Kornheiser and Wilbon, except you'd be facing off about important stuff.

I have to disagee with you that the hard part is over. Michelle has given up her career, her home, and her extended family to move to a new town where everybody feels free to criticize her conduct, her hair, her clothes, and her shoes. There may be a difficult struggle with feelings of lost identity -- her only job now is to be Barack's wife. And of course, mother to those two adorable girls. If I were asked for advice, I would suggest that for now she should just concentrate on getting them settled, because no matter how hard a move is on parents, it's worse for kids. At least for a while.

But eventually, she will want to come out of the house. The Eleanor Roosevelt analogy is good, except she should cannot be as agressive [read: uppity] as Mrs. R. was, and I doubt that she would want to be. I think she should, after much thought and planning, try to establish a new paradigm (hate that word) for what a President's spouse is expected to do. It would be great if she got a job -- something like teaching law, for example. Or working for some charitable foundation. Something not involving china patterns and flower arrangements.

Millions of Americans loved watching Claire Huxtable tease Cliff just the way Michelle teases Barack. But when it comes to a First Lady (hate that term) they still envision a Nancy Reagan, gazing adoringly at her man. Michelle will never be that (praise the Lord). Instead she has an opportunity to go in a wholly new, exciting direction. I hope we'll let her explore her options, if that's what she chooses to do.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

low-tech cyclist — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:36:58 -0000

When Michelle first came onto the scene, Obama was in serious ' Magic Negro' territory, and Michelle was just saying, ' He's a talented Negro, with gifts, and a hard worker. But, he's not Magic. So don't expect the Second Coming.'

Truth. And yeah, aren't we all ready to move past the "Magic Negro" meme? I can understand why it came about in the first place, but it's been done and overdone.

I think Black folk like myself just want Michelle to stay Michelle. If she does that, she'll be a terrific First Lady for this country.

This middle-aged white guy is with you 100%.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

rikyrah — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:28:27 -0000

Did you see the 1996 LeMonde interview?

Their consistency is one of the things I enjoy most about The Obamas.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

rikyrah — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:24:38 -0000

Coates,

I had to LOL when you told your father you were in shock about a Black man winning Iowa. I said, while the Democrats were fighting the primaries, that Black folk were still trying to digest Iowa and Idaho. It's the digestion of the places where you KNOW there don't see Black folk, except for on tv and in the movies, that blew my mind. I mean, and the fact that Obama just didn't win places like that, for the most part he STOMPED Hillpatine in those...that's what just blew me away.

Has anyone ever been with a Black couple? I've seen Michelle Obama my entire life. Smart, steady, supportive Black woman but ' don't get too big for your britches, Buster'. Never meant on ANY level that she didn't love him. It was obvious from jump just how much she adored Barack Obama. But, everyone has to have someone that can ' keep it real'. That can tell them the 'hard truths'. Michelle is it for PEO. Yet, he knows that she loves him and only him..why?

Because when he was a broke, hole-in-the-car-having, living in a hovel over Harold's Chicken Shack, and told her, even though he went to Harvard Law School, that he wasn't going for the money..

Michelle Robinson said, ' that's ok, Baby. I love you, believe in you and have your back.'

I think Black folk like myself just want Michelle to stay Michelle. If she does that, she'll be a terrific First Lady for this country.

I'm so glad her mother is going to the White House for awhile to help with the WeeMichelles.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

low-tech cyclist — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:10:45 -0000

Weirdly, I tend to think the hardest part (the campaign) is over.

I don't think anything's weird about that. Look at what happened with Barack's approval numbers, once the campaign was over, and the negative advertising faded into the past.

The same thing's going to happen with Michelle. Sure, some of the negative memes about her are still kicking around, but they're kicking around right-wing radio and the righty blogosphere. In the echo chamber. Most of the public isn't hearing this shit anymore.

And Michelle's in a better position, over the medium term. Unlike Barack, she doesn't have to produce any results; just by being herself, she can give the lie to most of the bullshit that's been spouted about her.

I also have a hard time believing she'll get much crap for saying, 'hey, I think the world of him too, but he's still just a man.' He IS just a man, after all - maybe a very intelligent, talented, and charismatic man, but he went for a swim in Hawaii; he didn't walk on the waves.

We all know that, deep down. It's hard for me to believe that Michelle's gonna catch any shit for reminding us.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Amrita — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:09:47 -0000

I don't think the people who're shocked at MO's ribbing are shocked that she does it or that a wife is doing it to her husband, they're shocked that a (future) First Lady is doing that to the (future) President. It's all part and parcel of the weird marionette style behavior we've come to expect from politicians - if you're going to act like you're normal folks who're married to each other, then make sure you go OTT like that weird kiss Al Gore gave Tipper. There's very little casual touching or speak between political couples when they're in public.

Which is why I found it pretty sexy when BO locked his arms around her right before his acceptance speech and she patted his back and told him she loved him with an "Ok, now do this thing so we can get off this stage" look on her face.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Gully — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:46:29 -0000

Hah ... you guys have given me a couple good belly laughs this morning .. thanks

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Al K. — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:26:40 -0000

Wait, did your dad just pronounce your name "tan-ah-HA-see"? I thought it was "tan-EE-see". And someone somewhere called you "tan-ee-HEE-see" in a video... WTF, man? I thought I knew you...

Peace,

Al (whose name is pronounced "AL").

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

DougEMI — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:21:51 -0000

I think some of the public reaction is going to be aged based. I just read an article about the Obamas that was written years ago and Michelle remarked how her sense of humor is dry and sarcastic. An older person may not see these as desirable traits in a First Lady since they may be more used to the Jackie Kennedy/Pat Nixon type who has afternoon Teas and talk about floral patterns.

The reporters are probably versed in tv characters shit talking to there husbands, but on Alice, Flo is saying "Kiss my grits" back to a dumbass like Mel, going back further to the Honeymooners, Kramden really was an idiot. Perhaps they think the TV moron husband deserves the sass, but the President should be deferred to even by his wife, especially in public.

One way or another people are going to find something to criticize her about, it happens with all First Ladies. To the left, Laura Bush is a souless Stepford Wife who they dehumanize with nicknames like "Pickles". So insults will come no matter what.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

SeanH — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:19:37 -0000

I love these interviews with your dad. He seems like a damn interesting guy. You should get him blogging.

I'd recommend coming to Iowa some time. Wait a few years and come for the primaries though. Unless you have some strange fascination with corn or hogs there's really not much to see or do here.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Jack T. — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:11:45 -0000

Before I click to play the clip, TNC has the scare quotes up like he's about to go Praying Mantis Style on his pops.

In all truth, I think Michelle Obama will do her best to lay low for a minute. She'll wait until the kids get adjusted to DC and the President-Elect gets to work. Then we'll see more of her. I think the Eleanor Roosevelt comparison is dead on. I'd like to ask your thoughts on her physicality, TNC. I remember a Salon article caused a dustup because it featured the Future First Lady's bottom. I wonder if people's reaction to her has as much to do with the way she looks as her place in Obamaland.

Re: For the first time in my adult life...

Michelle — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:56:32 -0000

TNC, I keep beating this dead horse, but again, a lot of this has to do with femininity and what we expect "role model" women to be like - which is to say, to sit with our legs nicely crossed, shut up about our careers, and focus on the kids. It's one thing, of course, to know that Linda down the street is loud and opinionated, and another to know the First Lady is. And one of the difficulties I've had with Michelle's public image is that she has very much played the game by its ordinary rules. She emphasizes her focus on the children, etc etc. I realize there are cross-purposes at work here - I hear what black feminists are telling me about needing to see that kind of black woman in the public sphere - but I guess I'm still waiting for the day we can have a First Lady that, like Judy Dean say, doesn't have to be some kind of repository of all our screwed up ideas about femininity, but has a life and identity that are her own, and no one is threatened by that.