The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Lilanne — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:01:54 -0000

I am a black female busines owner, college graduate who inherited no money or property and acquired wealth the old fashioned way....working my a.... off. The ghetto exists in your mind, I grew up in the Los Angeles area, one of ten kids, but my poor working parents emphasized work, and education. Believe it or not, I never heard my parents talk about how bad things were for black people or the white man is going to stop you from getting ahead. My mother encouraged my love of reading, and as result of all the books in the house, my siblings were readers too. My mother went to PTA meetings when she got off work as a $25 a week maid, and she signed and read our report cards. So I guess you can say, I inherited wealth that can not be foreclosed or go bankrupt...my wealth is the values, the strength, the philosophy my parents instilled in me and my siblings. Those are the values my siblings gave to their children which is why each generation we have gradutes from Stanford or the University of Michigan or Pitzer. The only thing holding you back is yourself, don't listen to people tell you how bad it is, or that you need money and connections to make it....

Yes, its racist in the country, we have a history of financial, social and educational racism that defines our cities, shapes and gives substance to the rich black culture yet as Rev. Wright would say, we still manage to produce Barack Obama's and Kobe Bryant's, Oprah, and Will Smith.. Its not easy being black in America but the chains were removed a long time ago, its up to us as Black Americans to remove the chains that encircle our psyche....

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Mike T — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:09:57 -0000

I actually agree with the thesis, but there is a strong counter-example in New Orleans, where black homeownership is fairly widespread, but so is poverty. In fact, the two often come together. Owning a home does not automatically lead to family prosperity. There must be more.

I often hear/see the phrase "the disintegration of the black family", but the black family in this country is still trying to re-form itself after centuries of slavery, during which time slave owners did everything they could to prevent the formation of families.

My wife and I have a young baby, and she's been a teacher in a variety of environments, so we often find ourselves reflecting on the wealth of knowledge and socialization we have to draw on that is too often missing in populations where slavery, apprenticeships, indentured service, or child labor meant that, historically, learning wasn't valued. And those populations tend to be the ones where poverty is most persistent.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

socgrad — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:19:51 -0000

I'll throw my two cents into this debate. When TNC recommended reading Crabgrass Frontier and The Promised Land, I wholeheartedly agree. For anyone who is unclear on the very large role federal and state governments played in maintaining and exacerbating residential segregation, these two books will enlighten you. I would also recommend American Aparthied by Douglas Massey and Nancy Denton (1993). Seriously, I had to read the literature on residential segregation for my comprehensive exams and it is incredibly depressing and rage-making.

The thing some people in this thread don't seem willing to understand is that the redlining and residential segregation *mandated* by the federal government from the 1910s through the late 1960s, effectively shut black families off from the largest avenue of wealth accumulation for middle class families in the twentieth century, housing appreciation.

As other people in this thread have mentioned before, wealth *accumulates* and is passed down from one generation to the next. When black families in the 1910s through the 1960s are shut out of the wealth generation of the housing market, they don't have the wealth to pass down to later generations (duh!).

This is, of course, to say nothing of the discrimination in the business lending market that kept many black entreprenuers from starting or growing businesses and the outright theft and destruction of black property that occurred throughout the South and Midwest from the 1870s through the 1950s. (It's kind of hard to pass a business or land on to your children if your own government will not recognize or protect your right to your own property. American Aparthied is also a good source of information on the race riots where white folks destroyed many black communities between 1870 and 1940.)

One thing that's particularly bothersome about some of the comments in this thread is that some people seem to assume that since the Fair Housing Act of 1968 that everything is all cool now and the connection between discrimination and the wealth gap is a thing of the past. No, it isn't.

The Fair Housing Act was followed up with the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, and the Community Reinvestment Act in the 1970s in efforts to dismantle the widespread discrimination in the home buying and mortgage businesses.

And lo and behold, even into the 1990s, audits of mortgage lenders across the country find that black applicants are still more often denied mortgages or offered mortgages with worse terms than *similarly qualified* white applicants (Squires, 1994, Yinger, 1998) Yinger also details the many ways in which real estate agents continue to discriminate against black home buyers and renters. Also check out Orfield, 1996 for a very enlightening / maddening discussion of the connection between residential segregation and school segregation. So you see, the discrimination of the "past" that established and supported the wealth gap is alive and well today.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ragamuffin — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:35:51 -0000

The issue here is that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Larry Ellison and so forth are all white. Those few individuals skew the average hugely. I don't get any more benefit from their wealth than the average black person does, so it makes no sense to include them in a general social comparison.

Yes it does make perfect sense. If exceptional wealth is denied to blacks because of their race you're covering it up by saying common white folks don't get exceptional wealth. I say, "so what?" If exceptional wealth is conditional on being white, you damn well better reflect that.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

rikyrah — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:49:10 -0000

Family Properties: Race, Real Estate, and the Exploitation of Black Urban America (Hardcover)

by Beryl Satter (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/080507676X/ref=pd_luc_mri?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

rikyrah — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:39:37 -0000

Why is there a wealth gap?

How about the foundation for the current generation of wealth in this country was based on the G.I. Bill?

And, how about there was systematic discrimination against Blacks when it came to the GI Bill?

How about Redlining? If you have entire communities that aren't allowed to get a loan so that they can OWN a home so that it becomes an ASSET that can grow for the family....

How about the systematic lockout of Blacks from Financial Services? Please tell me where Black folk were able to invest in the stock market during the 40's, 50's, 60's, so that they could build the nest egg that could help their children?

THIS was race.

IF you couldn't buy a house in the North, let alone the South, even though you were ENTITLED because of the G.I. Bill.

IF you couldn't go to a local university and use the G.I.Bill because they didn't let in Black folks.

IF you lived in a community that was REDLINED, and couldn't buy that basic asset that greww.

IF you couldn't invest your money into assets that would grow for you (the stock market), because they refused to service you because you are Black..

IF you couldn't get into the Police and Fire Department because they wouldn't let in Black folk.

IF you can't get into LABOR Unions (I'm talking about Construction), because you're being kept out. I don't know about how it is in NYC, but in Chicago, there was one place were all the Trade Unionists went to high school: Washburne, I believe. They kept Black folks out of it. And, by the time they actually let Black folks into the school, it was so run down, it was disgraceful. Harold Washington is elected Mayor, declares that Black folks should be let into those Trade Unions. What do they do? They CLOSE DOWN THE SCHOOL AND MOVE IT TO THE LILY WHITE SUBURBS.

Race is EVERYWHERE in that wealth gap disparity.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

bread & roses — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:05:02 -0000

Ninja, I think I agree with you. Take two groups, who had nothing in terms of wealth in 1980, look at them in 2009, and if they have different levels of wealth, it must have been something different than the level of wealth in 1980. Something like... the cultural and educational wealth they had, the wealth of their institutions, the help or hindrance they got from other groups, the help or hindrance that they got from the government, etc., etc. Examples of how the black experience differs from the Vietnamese experience in these respects have been outlined above by lots of people. So: dissimilarities in wealth in 1980 cannot explain the current difference in wealth between blacks and all other groups, just some of them. So what? It doesn't mean wealth doesn't have profound effects, which are interesting and worth talking about.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Tony Comstock — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:30:45 -0000

So maaybe its a few points on a mortgage here, and higher credit card rate there..a higher insurance premium here, and better grocery prices there. It's the little micro-inequities that make a huge difference, especially year after year.

Just keep that in mind the next time somebody says "But if you stick it to the +250Kers, it'll have negative effect on small business and job creation" ;-)

Another story on the social/institutional thing:

As I said, my mom got a small inheritance from a spinster aunt and that's how my folks were able to put a down payment on a house. My mom's brother, the uncle I've mentioned a few time also got some money.

At the time (early 70s), he could have put a down payment on a co-op in Lincoln towers, but co-ops for the middle class was a very new idea in NYC. Everyone he knew rented, and In his mind, co-ops were for rich people, so he didn't pursue the Lincoln tower co-ops. If he had, his return on investment would have been monstrous. But he doesn't get how that game is played, so he put his money in the bank.

A few years later he got a job as a writer in the promotion department at a Time Inc. magazine. Once he was a Time Inc, he started meeting folks who had weekend houses. Again, "weekend" houses seems like something for the wealthy, not for a middle class employee. But one day he hears a woman who he knows makes about the same as he does talking about going to her "house in the Hamptons".

"How can you afford that?" he asks; and she lays it all out for him.

"Stop spending your paycheck on dinners out and you can afford a house if you want one."

Fortunately he's still got the inheritance in the bank, so he's got a down payment, and viola -- he's building wealth.

A little inheritance; a little knowledge through exposure to someone with a little more sophistication; marginal difference compounding marginal difference. Money, access, knowledge; these things matter.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Galleymac — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:47:29 -0000

Re: Vietnamese versus African Americans:

Actually, it’s not safe to simply assume that growing up in an inner city has less-severe effects than growing up in a war zone. Studies have been conducted showing that children from war zones are somewhat bolstered (not by huge amounts, but somewhat) by the idea that the random violence of war is not a normal state and will someday end when enemies are defeated. In an inner city, enemies aren’t so clear, and random violence can seem like the natural state of things.

Here’s one link, but a bit jargony. However, Joy D. Osofsky has written a book on the subject entitled ‘Children in a Violent Society.’

Further, once the Vietnamese reach the U.S., there is the benefit of the “model minority” issue, a stereotype which, while it can have some very detrimental effects on individuals, is not so detrimental when it comes to things like applying for a home or business loan.

I gotta say, the whole comparison seems pretty random to me, though. (Granted, I keep coming in late. Drat that multitasking...)

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Charles J — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:39:19 -0000

"My point is this. Slavery was over as of 1865 or so, Jim Crow as of 1965. This caused black americans to have low household wealth as of 1980. I dispute none of this."

The part of your argument which I disagree with is that low wealth in 1980 (or some similar initial condition) is predominantly responsible for poor economic performance today.

Perhaps, but what about the mid-80s and early 90's? just because redlining was outlawed in 1968 doesn't mean it didn't go on. See here:

http://powerreporting.com/color/

or even here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

The links provide evidence of housing discrimination and other types that correlates a little too strongly to be a function of simple coincidence. "Redlining" could also apply to things like business loans, insurance plans, even retail markets, where lower-income grocery stores provide less choice and higher prices.

A living example: I live in Central Harlem with many young professionals and many poor folks of Black and Latino descent. I've always shopped at C-Town next to my building; it's a small grocery store but is full service (with produce, etc.)

So one day I figured I'd venture across town to the PathMark located in the more upscale part of Harlem near Lexington Av/125th St. I was really shocked not only at the variety, but the price differences were far lower compared to C-Town.

So maaybe its a few points on a mortgage here, and higher credit card rate there..a higher insurance premium here, and better grocery prices there. It's the little micro-inequities that make a huge difference, especially year after year.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Sorn — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:24:59 -0000

Fascinating.

Generational wealth gaps among people of different groups/races/classes are as real as the nose on my face. The poorest county in the United States is the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.Wounded Knee anyone?

I don't mean to thread-jack so I won't but TNC's post and the replies to the post leave out an interesting part of this discussion that in my opinion needs to be adressed.

Wealth creation isn't just generational its also institutional. Insitutions create wealth for communities over generations in the same way that government programs do and for the same reasons. The devestating effects of slavery and Jim Crow aren't just measured in terms of individual wealth but also in terms of the colleges, universities, and other institutions that create generational wealth.

From The farmer's cooperatives of the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Elks club, the Masonic Lodge, for Catholics the Knights of Columbus, to the colleges that were founded by excluded groups in this country, African Americans, Native Americans, and others, who were around before the demise of jim crow and the formal barriers to insitutions that have created generational wealth, have suffered immesurably. Catholic immigrants managed to bypass more of the harm from this massive exclusion from these institutions because the Church in America was able to set up its own institutions and social clubs that led to wealth creation. Other minorities weren't so lucky.

Compare a list of catholic colleges and universities in the united states with a list of Historically Black Colleges and Universities and you will see that the "wealth gap" isn't only a matter of individual wealth but also of insitutional wealth.

In my opinion redistributive ecconomics may fix the individual part of the wealth gap. However the institutional wealth gap in terms of the associations and organizations that contribute to long term wealth creation is much more severe. The systematic racism of the past 200 years matters a great deal; however, we do ourselves an injustice when we look at the effects of the wealth gap soley on an individual level. People aren't poor simply because they lack the individual assets to achieve upward mobility, but also because they lack the collective assets that foster and sustain the creation of wealth in the long term.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ninja Zombie — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:10:50 -0000

TNC: "If you were born in in 1980, and you're 29 now, your grandparents would have been victims. Are you honestly arguing that had little impact on wealth accumulation? How could that possibly be true?"

I never made this argument. In fact, in the very post I made (which you quoted), I explicitly said that I am not making this argument:

"My point is this. Slavery was over as of 1865 or so, Jim Crow as of 1965. This caused black americans to have low household wealth as of 1980. I dispute none of this."

The part of your argument which I disagree with is that low wealth in 1980 (or some similar initial condition) is predominantly responsible for poor economic performance today.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

de Tocqueville — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:40:42 -0000

In my opinion, there are a variety of reasons for the current black economic situation today:

1. Past policies that prevented black capital accumulation, education, health, housing, and rights.

2. Present-day remnants of those past policies that continue to prevent social advancement (e.g., lack of access to jobs, housing, education, role models, mentors, networks).

3. Cultural backlash against white norms (e.g., studying is acting white).

4. Disintegration of the black family.

5. The stigma that blacks can't achieve in education leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy (e.g., studies by Stanford psychologist Claude Steele shows that black college students who weren't labeled as "minorities" needing special tutoring did better on tests than black students who received special minority treatment and tutoring).

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:14:41 -0000

I'll leave it at that. The arguments are laid out. People can decide which holds more water.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ninja Zombiie — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:08:05 -0000

TNC: "But it remains true that, by and large, if your parents--regardless of race--had no wealth in 1980, you probably won't have much either."

That's my point: it isn't true regardless of race. If it were true regardless of race et al (note: "et al" includes other factors than race, e.g. culture, etc), then vietnamese immigrants should have the same wealth levels as african americans.

Your explanation says that wealth is the major factor. I've provided an example with wealth held constant, but different outcomes. This shows that wealth provides an incomplete explanation.

Do you want to amend your hypothesis? Change it to "Low wealth in 1980 + memory of discrimination -> low wealth today." Vietnamese immigration is not a counterexample to this hypothesis. It is a counterexample to your original one.

TNC: "Ending that policy doesn't in the effects, anymore than stopping a guy from being stabbed for the fifth prevents him from bleeding from the other four stab wounds."

My point is this: one guy has 4 stab wounds. He has only 50% recovered.

Hypothesis: 4 stab wounds -> 50% recovery.

Fact 2: another guy with 4 stab wounds has 90% recovered.

Conclusion: original hypothesis is wrong. You need to do more than just count stab wounds, perhaps looking at width of the blade, location of wounds, physical condition before being stabbed, etc.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:58:05 -0000

Ninja,

My point is this. Slavery was over as of 1865 or so, Jim Crow as of 1965. This caused black americans to have low household wealth as of 1980. I dispute none of this.

The Fair Housing Act was passed in 1968--redlining was legal until then. Cases were being litigated into the 70s. In other words, if you were 22 in 1980, your parents and grandparents would have been subject to redlining. If you were born in in 1980, and you're 29 now, your grandparents would have been victims. Are you honestly arguing that had little impact on wealth accumulation? How could that possibly be true?

I don't think you are being honest. I think there's a lot of room to debate about what to do about wealthy. But people who doubt the why or think redlining is "theorizing" should stop talking, and start reading. The ignorance is stunning. It's flat-earthism married to race. Incredible.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

willybobo — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:53:46 -0000

@wendy: appreciate the link, but I don't think it proves what you suggest. It only further establishes that black people are on average poorer than white people. But the 'why' is all theorizing. Some of the theories may be compelling, but none prove that if you separated the groups using different criteria -- people with three or more dental fillings vs. people with less; people with b blood types vs. people with other blood types; people whose mothers had 5 sexual partners or fewer at the time of their birth vs. people whose mothers had 10 or more; or any other arbitrary separation -- that you wouldn't find meaningful differences -- indeed perhaps differences that seem to be even more meaningful than white vs. black -- in wealth distribution.

The problem is, we track race data, but we don't track other arbitrary categories that we could use to separate groups of people. So we get data to support claims that race matters, absent of data to suggest that other equally arbitrary divisions do as much or more. Having data about one thing doesn't make it more true, though. It's just that we're able to theorize about it more easily.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

cocolamala — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:52:53 -0000

@ninja zombie

you're still comparing a native born experience to an immigrant experience.

if you want to do that, compare the post-war wealth of vietnamese citizens to that of vietnamese immigrants to the US. Is there more wealth or less among those who left the country's oppresive tactics behind?

is there more poverty or less among the people who stayed and continued to live with the devastation in the wake of the war?

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Sam — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:42:10 -0000

Ninja Zombie,

I'll state the obvious: time did not restart at zero in 1980, even if that's when Vietnamese refugees arrived in this country.

I'm not sure why you included stats about American v. foreign-born blacks. Don't they prove TNC's point?

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

wendy — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:40:15 -0000

Here's evidence that being black leads to less wealth -- explicitly, measurably, causes it.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/1989/12/01/85518/index.htm

It doesn't happen by coincidence.

.

.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ninja Zombiie — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:36:50 -0000

texascowgirl: "This actually goes against your argument. It may very well be more difficult to live in a communist country, but they don't live there anymore now do they?...We never escaped the ills that plagued us unlike immigrants did. That is ultimately what makes the analogy of AA's to immigrants a false one. "

My point is this. Slavery was over as of 1865 or so, Jim Crow as of 1965. This caused black americans to have low household wealth as of 1980. I dispute none of this.

I dispute the hypothesis that low household wealth 15 years after jim crow necessarily leads to poor economic indicators today. Vietnamese immigrants suffered from low wealth as well, as did other groups. Black americans have not overcome this disadvantage, whereas other groups have (more or less).

THAT fact (which is crucial to economic conditions today) is is not explained by the low household wealth hypothesis, and therefore other explanations are needed.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Irishpirate — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:35:15 -0000

I don't assume the black buying black experiment is racist. I understand the desire of that wealthy couple to help others in the black community. I've hired younger relatives to help me with some landscaping not because they were great landscapers, but because they needed the money and were related to me.

I think it is "silly" to travel those distances for a gallon of milk. Why not address the issue by helping other hard working blacks, I imagine there are a few such folks out there, open a business closer to home? As TNC might say it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. Patronize black businesses and help create black owned businesses closer to home.

As for the nature of the comments on the Tribune story don't underestimate white stupidity or better yet human stupidity. The amount of bitterness in this country amazes me. I imagine it is just part of the human condition. I know a woman, friend of a relative, who always whines that the black and the mexicans are taking all the good jobs from white people. She doesn't seem to recall that both she and virtually her entire extended family have solid middle incomes from working for the City of Chicago.

People are not particularly self reflective or thoughtful. Race is as what put so well long ago: "The American Dilemma".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dilemma

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:33:35 -0000

My claim is that Jim Crow et al might explain blacks economic position circa 1980. However, it does not explain why, between 1980 and 2000, vietnamese immigrants overcame this disadvantage while black americans did not.

To more precisely state my disagreement, I believe your explanation is incomplete. It explains why black americans were poorer as of the end of Jim Crow. It does not explain why those disadvantages persisted for decades after that.

This is explained quite well in the article I linked:

The biggest predictor of the future economic status of a child is the net worth of the child's parents. Even modest inheritances or gifts within a parent's lifetime -- such as paying for college or providing the down payment on a home -- can give a child a lift up the economic ladder. And historically, white families have enjoyed more government support and tax-paid subsidies for their asset-building activities.

Pointing out that an immigrant group, who never suffered any oppression here, were able to do quite well isn't a counter. It simply says that they were very successful. Good for them. But it remains true that, by and large, if your parents--regardless of race--had no wealth in 1980, you probably won't have much either. That you can only cite an immigrant groups--people whose oppression was not suffered here--as the exception, says a lot.

Black people, in this country, were prevented for decades from getting wealth. Ending that policy doesn't in the effects, anymore than stopping a guy from being stabbed for the fifth prevents him from bleeding from the other four stab wounds.

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

willybobo — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:29:42 -0000

TNC, you say:

"My argument is simple--blacks have significantly less wealth because of past documented instances of Jim Crow, racial terrorism and redlining. If you're going to argue that that those things had no significant effect than you need some evidence and documentation. Please provide it."

But what is your evidence for that claim? The data you've referenced in the original post, and from Conley, demonstrate correlation between being black and having less wealth than average. But correlation does not in the least suggest that being black leads to less wealth, that it causes it.

If we tracked the appropriate data, we might find, hypothetically speaking, that people with brown eyes have significantly lower net worths than people with blue eyes. Does that allow a reasonable person to conclude that people with brown eyes have been systematically discriminated against? What if we found that people who wear red socks tend to be poorer? Would one be more likely to be richer if they took off their red socks?

Re: Fix the wealth gap, Fix the world

Byrk — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:28:19 -0000

Do you want me to try to find a source estimating the average wealth and hardship of vietnamese refugees?

On immigrants, I think there is massive selection bias when it comes to voluntary immigration. We are only getting the people who are willing to uproot their lives and move to a foreign country. We are getting the more motivated parts of that country in this way, not a random selection of Vietnamese. Take thousands of random Vietnamese enslave them for a at least a few generations and then discriminate against them for a few more generations you'll have far worse results.