The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Connecting The Dots

Re: Connecting The Dots

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Re: Connecting The Dots

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Re: Connecting The Dots

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Re: Connecting The Dots

Joshua Lyle — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:38:12 -0000

(replying to Dan W @2:28 here as comments only nest finitely)

Actually, I'm an anarchist. My political agenda never requires a working government.

Re: Connecting The Dots

karl — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:48:54 -0000

So you don't mind socialized medicine then or subsidizes and the circumstances you consider right, cool, we can agree on that. I don't know what your background is, but if you know anything about biostats (it's part of what I do) in those extra four years you've cited is a lot more than simple mortality. That's way life expectancy as a metric much like infant mortality. I ask, are you against universal coverage that does anything less than fully address all your concerns? Also if and when Obamacare as you call it succeeds and if and when the approval ratings are along the lines of medicare will you still call the current reform bill Obamacare?

Re: Connecting The Dots

Chris Baldwin — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:05:16 -0000

"Carter is from a generation of liberals who never understood why people didn't agree them about Willie Horton. Thus Carter doesn't insinuate, he doesn't calibrate, he just speaks, political effects be damned."

I don't understand it and liberals shouldn't understand it. We're right, they're wrong. The Reagan/Clinton/Bush years are over. Now is the time to be liberal as all hell.

Re: Connecting The Dots

The Ninja Zombie — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:38:17 -0000

However, I realize that there is nothing that behavior can do for genetic disorders, accidents, etc.

And if Obama wanted to subsidize insurance for those with genetic disorders, I'd have little objection.

We live in a modern world where yes, people do use healthcare sometimes too much, that's part of the reality of a system that is rooted in the quasi-free market/subsidy non-sense that we have.

People using too much is not a problem of either free markets or subsidies, but it is a problem of health care with *low marginal cost* (i.e., getting that MRI/test/etc "just in case" costs little or nothing). Socialized catastrophic care would not have this problem. Free market first-dollar coverage would.

Going to the doctor should cost you money out of pocket to discourage going unless you really need to.

My biggest objection is that Obamacare strengthens the worst incentives in our current system. A good health care plan (socialized or not) would reward healthy living and would give people incentives to consume less medicine.

The fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever that playing any games with the health care system will improve anyone's health. (If you disagree, please provide evidence.) Medicine (beyond the basics, which everyone gets) just doesn't affect health in any statistically significant way, according to basically every good study I've seen.

To put it another way: the life expectancy gap between the US and Japan is 4 years. The life expectancy gap between a completely sedentary person and a person who walks at a brisk pace 30 minutes/day is also 4 years. Rural living adds another 7 years to your life.

Medicine won't help. Exercise will.

Re: Connecting The Dots

karl — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:36:28 -0000

@Ninja

I'm with you. Without going into it too much detail I'll just say I lead a very healthy gym rat lifestyle. However, I realize that there is nothing that behavior can do for genetic disorders, accidents, etc. I'm glad that HSA's work out for you but for the vast majority of people the deductible is too high and the out of pocket costs too great. We live in a modern world where yes, people do use healthcare sometimes too much, that's part of the reality of a system that is rooted in the quasi-free market/subsidy non-sense that we have. But, I don't see how re-imagining how we should have done or saying "don't blame me, I'm healthy" gets us anywhere at this stage in the game. Flat out, every industrialized country, blah, blah, blah, you know the stats, why can't we have do it? Every argument I hear against universal coverage of some type usually comes back to an opinion rooted in indifference to others or self-centeredness. In the richest country on earth? Come on, we can do better than that!

Re: Connecting The Dots

The Ninja Zombie — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:49:29 -0000

Karl, illegal immigrants getting Obamacare isn't my major concern. I was simply pointing out to CitizenE that the issue does exist and is not simply a "fantasy" to raise fears of "brown people". That's why I devoted so much time to it in *this conversation*.

I'm not sure if Obamacare will cover illegals or not. I'm a worried by the fact that the democrats were very careful to make sure there is no enforcement mechanism. Regardless, it's a real issue that deserves discussion, rather than calling it "a fantasy problem that brown people might get care."

As for the rest of it, I told you my big personal issue. My big macro-level issue is that Obamacare encourages people to go to the doctor, and forces the young to subsidize the old and the gym-rats to subsidize the fatties.

The problem with medical care in this country is simply that we consume too much of it. We do that because it has a low marginal cost (i.e., once you buy insurance, getting an MRI or something costs you very little extra). Obamacare tries to reduce the marginal cost even further, which will only drive people to consume more unneeded medical care.

I don't want to subsidize medical spending, I want to tax it just like regular income (i.e., eliminate the health insurance tax deduction). And I'd like to *raise taxes* on first-dollar coverage, which is the real problem with medical spending in this country.

Re: Connecting The Dots

karl — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:22:21 -0000

I don't think that saying it is a wedge issue is wrong, can anyone deny that immigration isn't? While you say their is nothing in the bill to expressly prevent immigrants from getting taking part in this reform their is nothing expressly supporting it either. A lot of what ifs proposed I wasn't privy to the ends and outs of why things certain things were left in or out but so I can't say. It's striking to me that there seems to be more concern coming from you that one or a handful of people might game the system than that there is one American citizen going without. You talk about your HSA+CAT but what about the future for the country and it's health choices or is it everyman for himself Mad Max style?

Re: Connecting The Dots

The Ninja Zombie — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:11:13 -0000

Wow, you bring up some good points but who on this site is saying that discussing reform and being in opposition is racist besides you?

CitizenE implied that bringing up the issue of illegals getting Obamacare is racist.

@CitizenE (September 22, 2009 2:05 PM):

...it's more than debating whether illegals can get coverage, we're being demanded to debate the issue when it doesn't even exist. In this case, the wedge is fantasy illegal brown people getting fantasy health care...

Regarding your last sentence, I couldn't parse it. If you are asking whether I oppose Obamacare, the answer is yes. Obamacare will directly hurt me: it makes my current insurance (Cat coverage + HSA) illegal and will force me to pay more for services I don't want. Additionally, the insurance company is forced to charge me and some fat lazy smoker nearly the same price, basically forcing me to subsidize them.

Re: Connecting The Dots

karl — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:40:57 -0000

Ninja@11:40 PM

Wow, you bring up some good points but who on this site is saying that discussing reform and being in opposition is racist besides you? To make the jump that pointing out what might be racist motivations by some to saying that any discussion on the issue is racist is quite a leap. Personally, if strengthening provisions to block illegal immigrants from the possibility of getting coverage gets the bill through I'm all for it.I'm curious though, are you against all American citizens being properly covered under any conditions brought about through govt. regulation?

Re: Connecting The Dots

albatross — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:46:54 -0000

I'm curious: Does anyone go to the MSM for intelligent, or even non-moronic discussion of race? They mostly get the sports scores right, and they're an effective enough source of quotes from the two big parties and various large organizations, but for insight into any serious issue?

The way it looks to me: If you want to keep a large audience, you can scare your audience or make them mad at some bogeyman, but you can't make them uncomfortable. You lose viewers and readers when you make casual readers feel stupid or dirty, or when you make them confront some fact they'd really rather avoid. And honest discussions of race are chock full of uncomfortable. Want to talk about crime statistics? Or sunset towns? Want to confront your own unconscious racism? Want to have a real discussion of the performance gap in schools? Or illegitimacy rates?

Re: Connecting The Dots

The Ninja Zombie — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:40:03 -0000

How easy is it for illegal aliens to get other goivermment benefits right now? ...It will be just as difficult to obtain health care subsidies since the very same system and requirements will be in place...

This is false.

Dean Heller's amendment proposed that Obamacare use the *very same system and requirements* as Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security. Medicaid uses SAVE (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements), and his amendment proposed that Obamacare would also. The Dems shot it down.

This means that Obamacare will NOT use the very same system as Medicaid.

Why this disparity? Apparently discussing it is racist, so we should just avoid talking about it.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Acromion — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:15:00 -0000

Jeezus you finally come around TNC. I don't get why you worry what white people think about you anyway. I mean, just look at us. We're pretty much a bunch of fat beer guzzling slobs (unless we're doing meth) we can't dance, and we don't look good bald. And contrary to what you might think, we don't sit around the dinner table talking about black people. Its more about the Chinese who took our jobs.

You can't all wee-weed up every time a few crackers crawl out of their meth lab/trailer with a Hitler mustache painted on an Obama sign. Most of us are too busy clipping Fantastic Sam's coupons to pay attention to politics anyway.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Jon — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:45:45 -0000

Re: The worry is that enforcement on the ground will not be up to snuff, and that this may be by design.

How easy is it for illegal aliens to get other goivermment benefits right now? Food stamps? Medicaid? Social Security? I could be wrong but I believe it is very diiffcult for them to do so, though no doubt some few "lucky" ones with highly unusual circumstances may slip through the cracks-- there is no such thing as a law so perfect that no one can ever violate it. It will be just as difficult to obtain health care subsidies since the very same system and requirements will be in place. If you can convincingly argue that illegals can easily get, say, Medicaid already then I may listen to your argument, otherwise I think you are blowing smoke.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Jon — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:41:27 -0000

Re: Dems killed his amendment. Why did they do that, if illegals getting coverage isn't on the table?

Illegal aliens can get coverage right now, today, if they pay for it, or if their employer does. That isn't going to change. The issue is whether illegal aliens (or perhaps even legal ones) will be eligible for subisdies. The answer to that, at least in regards to the illegals is a flat no, and this is already explicitly stated in the several proposed bills. There is no need for any further amendments on the subject.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Carrington — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:39:16 -0000

Responding to Ulysses larger point, I would add one further issue, which most people tend to underestimate: since 1965 the United States has seen the largest influx of new immigrants since the 1920s.

It's tremendously varied bolus of new citizens. In part for this reason the political impact has only recently begun to become visible.

One thing common to these folks, in general, is that they have not really fit themselves in the black-white division: most obviously because they are Asian or Latin American, but even because they are Mediterranean/South/Southwest Asian, etc.

By their own lights these folks are politically underrepresented -- being represented by Joe Crowley doesn't cut it, even if his tan resembles theirs. But they're not likely to muster enthusiastically for a fight against the "white establishment" either, especially if it means simply substituting, for example a black 'foreign devil' for white.

Begin to talk about specifics -- national values/community values, education, health care, police brutality, small business success -- and you begin to get more interest.

Not only does the 'racism,racism' cry offend the racists, it also causes new ethnics to tune out.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Carrington — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:24:53 -0000

"You can kill the troops, but it's better to bomb the factories...."

In general I agree with you, but I have a particular problem with this metaphor -- much as Fallows has a problem with boiled frogs. Bombing the factories never worked.

Sun Tzu: attack his strategy, attack his alliances, attack his army, attack his cities, in that order of preference. Clausewitz: attack his center of gravity (whatever that is).

Re: Connecting The Dots

Carrington — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:12:23 -0000

Obama was quoted quoting Alinsky:

"No enemies or allies, only interests."

It's funny, though, much of this debate re-capitulates an old theological debate: salvation by works vs. salvation by faith.

As to my comment, I couldn't resist the opportunity to use the term "great unwashed" in a modern discourse.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Carrington — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:05:55 -0000

Fair point. Though nb. I simply noted that you were potentially _suggesting_ an interesting -- but as yet unformed -- point.

Your initial argument didn't make sense -- the discussion was about the political wisdom of Carter's statement rather than its truth.

The second argument -- that Carter and Andrew Young had to be given credit for some (particularly southern?) political wisdom -- is more interesting: I'd love to hear more.

I don't know whether I'm right to suggest a distinction between northern and southern -- it was simply an idea that came to mind.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:19:58 -0000

Most certainly. I added that line about arrogance because I think it presumes that we (black folks) are clean. We ain't. Nobody is.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Josh Jasper — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:05:01 -0000

Debatable racist? By whom? The only people who're debating if Beck is a racist or not are racists.

Re: Connecting The Dots

Josh Jasper — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:03:50 -0000

Who's challenging him? He's lifted up as the second coming by 99% of the right. He's a hero to them, and has said horribly racist things with an entire TV network defending him on charges of racism.

So, he gets away with it. It has no serious impact on him. He can even loose major advertisers with no harm done.

Re: Connecting The Dots

The Ninja Zombie — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:48:47 -0000

once again are there special provisions for other enforcement issues?

Yes. For example, the IRS will be enforcing the mandate to purchase unwanted health insurance. HHS is in charge of enforcing the required benefits on mandated health insurance plans. A new regulatory agency will be in charge of creating and enforcing regulations against the famous "waste, fraud and abuse".

The various proposed bills are long because they go into detail. For example, section 1145 of HR 3200 puts the secretary of HHS in charge of regulating the costs of certain cancer treatment centers.

But of course, verifying eligibility for Obamacare in the same exact way we verify eligibility for Medicaid was voted down. The bill doesn't need to go into detail on that. Hmm...

You are telling me this doesn't warrant some discussion? Sounds fishy to me.

Inre defacto. Let's just talk blood tests and type 2 diabetes, a nationwide epidemic. People w/out health insurance cannot afford periodic blood tests, or more importantly don't get them. People with insurance do. We are all paying for those who don't get them.

And under Obama's plan, we will continue to do so.

Regardless, there is no evidence whatsoever that additional medical spending on tests will lower costs. "Preventative care" is a deliberate confusion of terms.

Preventative care that doesn't do anything (according to most studies): additional tests and medical procedures.

Preventative care that works: hitting the gym and eating well.