The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Before I go

Re: Before I go

Rofe — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:54:52 -0000

I have to agree with Liz and (much further up) steps: your posts demonstrate some refreshing viewpoints and critical thinking. As you wrote, you may not know economics but you know people, and I find your posts a welcome, thought-provoking relief from the manic and / or transparently antagonistic efforts in the blogosphere.

It doesn't hurt that you're a Cowboys fan !

One more newly loyal reader,

Re: Before I go

Liz — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:23:29 -0000

Great post. You and hilzoy are my favorite bloggers because you both really THINK about things, rather than letting your ids get the better of you.

Re: Before I go

Lesley — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:49:40 -0000

I also deeply believe that empathy and understanding is it's own reward. Built my life around that one, though I struggle with it.

I really enjoy reading your blog. And while your experiences as a black man continue to offer new insights for me, it's from your basic decency as a human being that your blog rings true for me.

Re: Before I go

Ivan Ivanovich Renko — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:33:39 -0000

For many Gen X women like myself (and Palin is Gen X) the primary sexist experience is: "Those men gave the job to that clueless chick instead of me, because the boss thinks she's hot and/or will be a yes-man with no ideas of her own."

Whoah. Serious insight there. Can't know from experience (GenJones black man here) but it screams truth.

Re: Before I go

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:45:51 -0000

BT,

Re-read the post. I very specifically mentioned that. Furthermore I updated the post last night to reflect a conversation between me and Rebecca. I understand her point. I just--with great great respect--disagree with her.

Re: Before I go

BT — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 03:34:29 -0000

Dear Mr. Coates:

I know we live in fast times and the turnaround time on response articles and blogs, such as yours and Ms. Traister's is frighteningly short. But in this case, I had read the Traister piece before coming to yours, above. I think you hadn't read what she had to say carefully enough. If I'm not mistaken, she particularly excepted you, and your very fine preceding post, from her bag on 'sympathy' for Palin. And voiced direct praise for you and for your own previous, very acutely argued points on Palin and 'sympathy' (or pity) for her.

Re: Before I go

zacksback — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:46:19 -0000

When it comes to Palin, there's an intersection of sexism and age that the Republicans don't understand (which is why they keep crying sexism and wonder why it's not working).

For many Boomer women, the primary sexist experience of their lives is: "Those men gave the job to that guy instead of me, even though I am more qualified and/or have more seniority."

For many Gen X women like myself (and Palin is Gen X) the primary sexist experience is: "Those men gave the job to that clueless chick instead of me, because the boss thinks she's hot and/or will be a yes-man with no ideas of her own."

If, for some Boomer women, Obama's win over Hillary represents the guy they lost the promotion to, Palin's selection plays the same role for Gen X women. We've seen it: first the incompetent yet babelicious woman is promoted over her head, then the boss orders the attention of the entire team/department/etc. to focus on ensuring that "we" shield her from "mistakes" (or worse, we get blamed for her mistakes). Palin reminds us of when we got screwed by this sort of bullshit. And it shows in voters' response to her.

Re: Before I go

NoahB — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:53:07 -0000

I think maybe she doesn't quite get how devastating your post was.

You weren't feeling sorry for Palin. You were pitying her. Pitying someone is way, way, way harsher than attacking them.

It's the difference between seeing her as a force for evil and seeing her as a victimized dupe. Just about everybody on earth would rather be the first than the second.

Re: Before I go

framed for goodness — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:40:37 -0000

I honesty think you and Traister are essentially saying the same thing. The major son of a bitch that should be blamed for this is John McCain but it took a whole lot of hubris and unfettered ambition in Sarah to allow herself to be thus used.

Re: Before I go

jaye — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:31:42 -0000

I think I get what you're saying now, that feeling empathy is different from feeling sympathy. That people shouldn't sympathize with Palin because she doesn't deserve it, but you need to empathize with Palin not for the sake of Palin, but for the sake of your own humanity.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people confuse sympathy with empathy. It's like the abused wife, when she gets an on-his-knees apology from her husband while he's crying for her forgiveness, so she feels bad for him and thinks that he's not such a terrible person after all...until of course, the next time when he does it all over again. While it's good to feel empathy for him and the pain he must be in to do these abusive things, it is also important not to feel sympathy for him...and in your sympathy, pretend that he isn't abusive and cruel and a liar. That you can empathize with this person as a human being, while being clear and firm about the despicable person that he is, and not give him an inch. I think in sympathy, you give people second chances because you don't see the people for who they are, but in empathy, while you connect with them as people in pain, there are no second chances because you don't pretend that they aren't the liars and abusers that they are. I think a lot of people feel like the abused wife always giving second chances to a liar, and they recognize now that this person is not going to change and will always be a manipulator, and so they are learning to keep their sympathy in check, and that is a good thing, because Palin deserves no sympathy. But you're right, that is a different situation from empathy.

Re: Before I go

Joel — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:58:51 -0000

Feeling empathy for someone who doesn't share your idealogy isn't weakness, nor does it incline you to support their positions. It does, however, make you human. Sometimes a quote just says it best:

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. (Nietzsche)

Re: Before I go

Darkrose — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:49:49 -0000

Sarah Palin triggers my embarassment squick, which isn't the same as feeling sorry for her. It's like watching Rodney McKay in SG-1: a total train wreck as you watch someone humiliate themself in public. The difference is that I like McKay (in his SGA incarnation). I don't like Palin, and I'm enough of a Mean Girl that I can revel in the schadenfraudiliciousness of it all, as long as I don't watch too much of it in process.

Re: Before I go

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:42:08 -0000

"even black folks, as evidenced on this blog, sucumb to the white damsel in distress routine."

Sigh.

Yes that's it. I can't resist a white damsel in distress. You've found me out. Sarah, my love, I'm coming to save you...

Re: Before I go

Breukelyne — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:31:15 -0000

I know you are coming from an empathy angle, TNC. Not a pity angle.

I just would advise holding caution at hand for the ruthless politician we are dealing with in Sarah Palin.

She is a small-timer grabbing for the big leagues. Perhaps she doesn't currently feel like a big threat, considering she's struggling a bit now.

Just don't cut her slack on what seem like dishonesty and bad intentions on her part. She deserves a truckload of wariness and suspicion as well as empathy.

Re: Before I go

Dawn — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:10:41 -0000

"Do I feel sorry for her. No. If she were a Democrat would Republicans feel bad for her. NO! If she were a man would you feel sorry for her? Hell naw!"--Ann

I'll take it a step forward...would such sympathy be extended to Condaleeza Rice had she proven to be such an idiot? HELL NO! Let's not pretend there is no racial element to this, even black folks, as evidenced on this blog, sucumb to the white damsel in distress routine.

Re: Before I go

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:42:27 -0000

But, I don't pity her, in any respect. I've never said I did. It's fascinating that people keep getting "pity" from "empathy."

Re: Before I go

lebecka — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:06:33 -0000

Happy Birthday, TNC!

I agree with poster above that people (not just women, guys) like Palin will evoke your pity for their own gain. I usually run away as quickly as possible from women like this, as I do not have the ability to stop them from being manipulative with out seeming overbearing myself. (i am a woman, btw)

I do agree that when we see others fall, or make fools of themselves, we all cringe and feel sorry. I feel that way about Palin too. But then I remember her talking with such condescension and viciousness about the only person who stood up for her before her convention speech. I mean Barack _really_ stood up for her by invoking his own mom and her teen pregnancy. And Palin spit in his face.

Barack turned the other cheek and walked away.

_That's_ why Palin loses my pity every time. She's just mean.

Re: Before I go

elmo — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:49:07 -0000

Nina, so much word to your comments, and let me add another point that's sure to offend half our commentariat here. I've been there too, and smart, solid women rise above it as you say.

But you know who doesn't rise above it, but uses it to her singular advantage, while sticking a knife in every other woman in the room? Pageant queens. By which I mean, there are pretty women who have long since figured out that looks and charm are every bit as useful with many men as brains and grit -- and looks and charm are easier by far to achieve and demonstrate than brains and grit.

Pageant queens know that men don't take them seriously, that men don't respect them, but they don't care, because they don't need respect as long as they advance. Meanwhile, women who absolu-frackin-lutely insist on respect above all things become "ball-busting dykes." Ask Hillary Clinton.

There have been lots of little revealing moments in this campaign. Sarah Palin sitting next to Daddy McCain while Daddy explained oh-so-slowly that whatever comes out of her pretty little head can't possibly be policy for Crissake, what kind of idiot do you take him for -- that was a revealing moment. But not as revealing as finding out that Todd Palin, the "First Dude," has been sitting in on sessions and setting policy. Of course he has. He's the man, after all.

Arrgh.

Re: Before I go

nista206 — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:44:37 -0000

I actually thoroughly enjoyed Traister's column. I can appreciate both of you all's viewpoints, as they're just opinions. However, I must side w/ Traister in the fact that Palin is essentially ruining the whole idea of feminism. She's now become a damsel in distress, rather than a capable politician, equal to her male counterparts.

Re: Before I go

John Henry — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:31:34 -0000

True empathy is love and love is what its all about.

Re: Before I go

Nina — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:25:28 -0000

While I thought your post on Palin was much more insightful and persuasive than Traister's piece, I do share one strong opinion with her: whatever the hell is going on with Palin right now, it is unequivocally bad for women. This is maddening, but also sad. Watching last night's do-over dual Couric interview seemed like a new low on this front rather than successful damage control. McCain interrupts Palin to say want he wants said, and then says "I'll let Governor Palin speak for herself"? Please. I was rooting for Palin to cut him off, and say "I can handle this." Instead, she thanked him.

Maybe some of this would be unavoidable in any relationship where the older man is mentoring the younger woman who is "learning at the feet of the master." But it didn't have to be this bad. I've been there, in a professional situation where you're being treated like a lightweight by senior male co-workers. It sucks, but smart, solid women can and do rise above it. Even though Palin hasn't proven able to, I can still feel empathy for her plight, even while feeling deep anger and regret at the message that her fuck-ups send to little girls everywhere. Traister seems to think the two feelings are mutually exclusive, but I don't see why they have to be.

Re: Before I go

silentbeep — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:05:11 -0000

This was simply one of the best explanations and defenses of empathy i have ever read. A truly humane spiritual approach to understanding someone else as a human being first and foremost. Traister's writing is silly anyway and rather naive IMHO and I love salon.com I know I'm not offering a deep analysis but jeez, just wanted to say this blog entry is inspiring to me.

Re: Before I go

rickhavoc — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:06:32 -0000

Breukelyne gets at the larger thought that comes to mind...don't turn these people into human beings. Next thing you know, Al Gore just kind of rubs you the wrong way and how bad could Bush be?

Barack hit it to the wall for a stand-up double when he told Alan Keyes that he wasn't running for Pope, but for the Senate. Understanding the Gov. Palins of the world is wasted except to the extent that, like understanding bin Laden, it helps toss'em on the dust heap of history.

Re: Before I go

scythia — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:06:18 -0000

That is human nature, ever read Daily Kos? There is rarely anyone there seeking out a challenge to their world-view, they only want to hear from like-minded people.

Oh, no doubt. What I'm saying is that the right-wing mindset prizes it as a virtue.

Re: Before I go

Breukelyne — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:49:59 -0000

What I meant to say in my long-winded post is...

My gut says: "Be careful about feeling sorry for Sarah Palin. She is skillful at evoking those emotions to further herself and take advantage of you. That's the game she plays, based on the political history she has in Alaska. What we're all feeling is even now probably being mulled over by her as to how it could be used to advantage."

I obviously have no evidence of that. Just my gut. But I've dealt with bullies and manipulators before, and I trust my gut.