The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Awesome Emerson

Re: Awesome Emerson

echox1 — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:16:32 -0000

I agree with TNC, school CAN BE an area for acquiring credentials. But when you say you have an undisciplined mind, college CAN BE the forum to find and hone that discipline. In its purest state, advanced education creates the fundamental background necessary for rigorous intellectual discipline. It CAN BE a place where learning is more important than grades, but it CAN BE a place where grades and credentials trump curiosity and academic training. Fortunately for you, your innate curiosity supersedes your "undisciplined" mind. So many drop out, neither pursuing credential or their own path. I feel for them as they've not found how to travel this awe-inspiring planet on their own. Thanks for sharing your story, I appreciate your insight on this and other topics. Peace, E.

Re: Awesome Emerson

BreakerBaker — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:40:53 -0000

I don't think Emerson's writing is in the style of Kant. I'm not even sure if Emerson actually read Kant in the long form, but I think it's generally well accepted that, in being a Transcendentalist, Emerson's work is in the lineage of that of the man who coined the term. I haven't read either since before my kids were born, and I can hardly remember anything from way back then (it's nearly three years now!), so I may very well be making an argument I'm in no position to back up without resorting to brand of fake knowledge you get from Google.

Re: Awesome Emerson

CitizenE — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:44:58 -0000

I dropped out the first time through: I distinctly remember staying up all night to read Doestoevski's The Idiot before a Psychology final and laughing my butt off all through the final period, much to the annoyance of my fellow UC Berkeley students.

Years later, I had a family to take care of and after years of physical labor, I hurt myself, so the most promising thing for me was to become a college English teacher. In my opinion, except for learning more about structure, to do so has been very tough on my writing.

Early on, bored and unyet ready to accept that I was going to school to go to work, I cut class and instead went to a performance on the other side of campus, where a man, a declamador, from Nicaragua was declaiming the poetry of Federico Garcia Lorca with a world famous Flamenco guitarist playing behind him. A Spanish professor, whom I later got to be on my Master's Thesis committee, had arranged the whole thing. I was fortunate in meeting him because he showed me that one could live an academic life and keep learning all one's life. He had taught himself to be an expert on phonetics and linguistics, Mayan poetry, and the painting of Clemente Orozco. After my thesis was presented, he cracked open a bottle of champagne and as we knocked them back, he recited one poem by Lorca after another. That's how academia ought to be.

Re: Awesome Emerson

CitizenE — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:21:28 -0000

Recently I went back at Joyce; I reread the Odyssey and got myself up for it, I have book as large as Ulysses with annotations in it; I even read the summaries of every chapter, but what I ended up with was this:

Joyce is funny. Telemachus is a screwed up intellectual wasting away teaching school children who bore him to tears. Ulysses a Jewish ad man wandering around Dublin so he won't run into his wife screwing a guy with the presposterous name Blazes Boylan. And Penelope, the decades long faithful Penelope, is a woman screwing around on her husband. Early on we have a scene of Leopold Bloom, our modern Ulysses, sitting on an outhouse thrown smelling himself and as he is wont to do ruminating on this, that, or the other mundanity of life, albeit some sprinkles of sagacity thrown in. Ulysses--the tittle is a bit of a joke.

And as a word slinger, he's slick. No doubt, even when you don't know wtf he's talking about, it sounds good.

But I don't believe he really believed in his characters. His characters are a front almost for the cultural history of Wester Civ. thinking as it had hit Irish shores. He had to stuff his novel with allusions, half of which upon discovery struck me as literary name dropping, rather than having much relevance or significance. His two main characters cannot, either of them, turn off their minds for even a second, and their ability to have a continuous thread of thinking for more than a paragraph despite one obviously being portrayed as a genius and the other as at least somewhat learned is maddening. One friend of mine described it thus: it's as if the narrative voice is sitting in a bus all day long and looking out the window, and you are forced to listen to them noodle as they go in and out of waking consciousness.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:15:09 -0000

You are telling my story. Know what's creepy? My Dad used to do the same thing as a kid coming in Philly.

Re: Awesome Emerson

anna perez — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:49:29 -0000

TNC--you are not alone. I used to cut class (High School of Music and Art and Hunter College) to go to the Donell branch of the NYC Public Library and the Museum of Modern Art (they were across the street from each other.) I read Thackeray, Austin, Zora and so many others. After lunch at the last Automat standing, I would cross the street to absorb Picasso (especially after I found out he was cribbing from African artists) Monet et al. My kids still don't believe that this is what I did when I ditched class.

Re: Awesome Emerson

anna perez — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:29:13 -0000

I dropped out of college just before my senior year in part for reasons of economics but mostly because I WAS BORED OUT OF MY SKULL! My first job after dropping out was to become an airline stewardess (it was the 1970's.) Twenty years later I had a fairly senior position at the White House. I guess I was much better at working--period.

I also tried to penetrate the imprenetrable Joyce, but Faulkner was more my stick.

Re:your post and this thread, God Almighty, I love this blog!

Re: Awesome Emerson

MAJeff — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:08:18 -0000

There's still fencing, especially around the shoreline. I don't have too much trouble with that since it seems like there's an almost constant five-or-more foot drop down to the pond from the path.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Deborah — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:49:20 -0000

Have they taken down the fences? The goal was good--let the plants recover along the shore--but the last time I took that hike, a couple of years back, I felt I was in one of those cattle moving things.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Bruins2Lakers — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:49:07 -0000

I have always liked both Self Reliance and Civil Disobedience, prefering the latter a great deal more since I was a child of the 60s, pissed off that "they" killed JFK, were sending my generation off to die in Vietnam, and we were stuck with Mr. "Your President-Is-Not-A-Crook," which he actually epitomized.

I was more inspired by these portions of Self Reliance:

"For conformity the world whips you with its displeasure...'

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen, and philosophers and divines."

I think of Peter Sellers in "Being There." ("I like to watch.")

Then he goes on to state that you shoud speak what is on your mind each day, even if you contradicted what you said previously, so you will be sure to be misunderstood, like "Socrates, Luther, Jesus, and Copernicus."

If one reads "The Fountainhead" the same issues seep through--conformity for the greater good of society vs. sanctity of individual creation, individual thought. Thus the eternal dilemma of creative individualists misunderstood and chastised by the masses. One has only to look at how society treats gifted celebrities--and non-celebrities-- to know this to be true.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Doug T — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:25:28 -0000

"You don't think Emerson is in the lineage of Kant? Really?"

I wouldn't say so, at least in terms of style and goal. (Caveat: I've read more glosses on Kant than actual Kant, who I'd nominate for the title of worst writer in the history of the world at succinctly and clearly explaining ideas based on the 3 works of his I've read (Prologomena, GRoundwork of MEtaphysics of Morals, and Religion withing the Limits of Reason Alone). And I'm only about 150 pages into the Collected Essays of Emerson right now. So I'm arguing on the basis of somewhat incomplete knowledge.)

It seems to me that Kant was doing what I'd call formal philosophy, making rigorous arguments from set principles, and trying to build an overarching system of philosophy about the world. Emerson is none of those things--he's not doing formal philosophy and is certainly not constructing some sort of overarching philosophic system. And he's also, unlike Kant, not really interested in abstract philosophical areas like epistomology. He's all about life and how to live it.

Can you imagine Kant ever talking about the hobgoblin of foolish consistency? But this is very much in keeping with Emerson's writings, from what I can tell.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Pontchartrain Girl — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:46:25 -0000

Thanks for this--and that more recent post on the community of commenters and the power of blogging. It's all starting to make sense now.

And I've never been able to stick with Joyce either. Thought about it again today when I was in a bookstore looking at the list of "best" 20th century fiction. But I went for John Cheever instead.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:22:34 -0000

Now, I agree, for writing, the credential is far less important than for, you know, law or finance or whatever. But don't you think that, no matter how much you sucked at college, you still might have been exposed to some things that would have helped you as a writer? That would have helped frame your thinking? That you might not have come across elsewhere?

Well, let's not conflate two things--Saying I dropped out of college, or that I felt pursuing the degree was "name and custom," isn't the same as saying I thought going to college was worthless. I most certainly do not think that.

Specifically, going to college where I went--Howard University--was one of the most transformative experiences I've ever had. This post is evidence--"Self-Reliance" was assigned to me by a professor. (It's worth noting that I failed American Lit.) I loved my time at Howard. It gave me a black intellectual tradition which I work out of, to this very day.

But I was a very unusual student--I used to cut class to go and sit in the library. I liked the environment of learning a lot more than I liked the actual tests. I read voraciously--Basil Davidson, Eric Williams, Walter Rodney, David Levering Lewis, Amiri Barak, Larry Neal, Jayne Cortez etc.

Ultimately though, it just seemed better for me to walk my own path. I treasure my time in college--it's part of the reason I'm here now. But the pursuit of the degree, of certification--which is a big part of college--never was for me.

And I don't think I'm ready for college. I have an undisciplined mind. I basically follow my curiosity. I have a hard time taming it. I can only feed it.

Re: Awesome Emerson

klg19 — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:01:56 -0000

See, now, that's interesting to me (not least because, you know, I'm a subject specialist librarian at a major university). I see our students and so many of them are here to get a degree. Not to learn--not to expand their horizons--not to learn new viewpoints--but to get that credential that helps them get them to the next step.

Now, I agree, for writing, the credential is far less important than for, you know, law or finance or whatever. But don't you think that, no matter how much you sucked at college, you still might have been exposed to some things that would have helped you as a writer? That would have helped frame your thinking? That you might not have come across elsewhere?

I know you've written a bit about how some of your classes--and classmates--opened your eyes to preconceptions you'd held. And in recent months you've embarked on a grad-level seminar in late 19th-century social and political history. Do you feel you had to reach the point where you were ready for it?

I'm not asking out of defensiveness (well, not purely!). I'm genuinely curious about your thinking on this and, by extension, the thinking of the young people I see here every day.

Thanks!

Re: Awesome Emerson

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:42:15 -0000

It's worth noting that I was much better working at writing, then I was working at college. I was a piss-poor student. And I was taking out loans to cover my piss-poorness. You would have done it too, if you could barely sit still in class. I had issues.

And I do think about going back. Mostly because someone compared my book to Joyce. And I've failed every time I've tried to read Joyce. People say it's better to read it in a class.

Re: Awesome Emerson

CitizenE — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:41:55 -0000

Well, Leary's psych texts preguru days were pretty much full of the empty academism that Emerson had found wanting, but when he came along and told people to drop out of college and school, albeit via the medium of psychotropic inebriation, traditions/practices/symbols were what he wanted to by pass.

Re: Awesome Emerson

ellaesther — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:37:18 -0000

Well, I guess I think it's important to differentiate between conversations about social values and shared cultural concepts, and conversations about individual personalities and value systems. I will be the first to say that not every middle class woman raising her children in suburban isolation is unhappy, or that every American man is self-destructive. I was talking about a general social issue, one that I see as really damaging to a lot of people, but certainly not to all.

But of course, individuals who mostly get along on their own and love to stand apart from the crowd can be excellent team players! (Indeed, I'm married to one such person!) In fact, it might even be argued that people who have the space and time to be by themselves and meet their own needs are more likely to have something to give the group when the group needs it.

I think this falls under the idea of "mutual support that does not deny the humanity, dignity, and agency of anyone."

(and @ Deborah: Apparently not! But then, I am a burden to many who love me, so I do try to keep this sort of thing under wraps until at least breakfast has been consumed).

Re: Awesome Emerson

bombolino — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:51:37 -0000

wait a second, if we can agree that self-reliance isn't a binary concept, then why can't a reasonably identified self-reliant person (who may also be a card-carrying Rugged Individualist) also be a good team player?

Damn, just cause it sounds like it's meant to move product doesn't mean there's no value to the sentiment.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:33:23 -0000

I came to believe a college degree wouldn't make me better at what I wanted. I wanted to write. I didn't think a degree would help. It was a credential--name and custom. It wasn't the thing. It wasn't the reality--plus I sucked at college.

Re: Awesome Emerson

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:29:09 -0000

Fair enough. I can't speak for anyone beyond me. It changed my life. But that doesn't mean it will change anyone else's.

Re: Awesome Emerson

BreakerBaker — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:27:46 -0000

You don't think Emerson is in the lineage of Kant? Really?

Re: Awesome Emerson

dmf — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:16:43 -0000

hi E, my sense was not that one couldn't find God in college as much as one couldn't rely on traditions/practices/symbols that no longer had any life to them and that was all they had to offer at divinity school (not sure that this has changed much). Leary, who I enjoyed, in some ways is an anti-Emerson in so much as he sought to transcend the world of "appearances" and of conversation, and is more like the brain-dead stoner mind-meld of "know-what-I'm-sayin". As for your comments on his form of writing as thought unfolding this seems exactly to the point and why the kind of exchange/evolution of ideas here is valuable.

Re: Awesome Emerson

MAJeff — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:11:03 -0000

Sort of, sort of off-topic.

But, TNC, and anyone else, if you're in the Boston metro area during the summer, you should really try to spend an afternoon out at Walden Pond. Take the path around the pond, over to the side away from the beach and screaming children, find a nice little spot in the trees and sun, and read some Thoreau or Emmerson.

It really is a wonderful spot to just sit. It was one of the things I insisted on doing (again) this summer before I leave Boston.

Re: Awesome Emerson

dmf — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:07:34 -0000

sure, that was my thought. Didn't want to get into too much genealogy here, but probably the Heidegger has more directly to do with Kierkegaard. This gets a little esoteric so perhaps at an open thread some time...

Re: Awesome Emerson

brucds — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:00:23 -0000

The dude is so retro...