The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Martin — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:32:10 -0000

The wealth gap, the conservatism of the church, and the geographical region in which one lives all help account for homophobia in the black community. (As they do in the hispanic and white communities.) But there is, I believe, an additional factor contributing to homophobia in the black community, and that is the beleaguered state of black masculinity.

Always under assault, despised, feared, and historically subject to the most brutal controls and limitations, black masculinity has been in a crisis from which (I would argue) it has yet to fully recover. Recall that under slavery black men were separated from and unable to provide for their families; that they could bequeath nothing to their children, not even their names; that their sexuality was hyperbolized, feared and controlled under pain of death… in this and in so many other ways, they were in effect denied the right to be men. Now what do you think the effects on black masculinity might be?

How's this: that in response to this systematic and centuries-long brutalization, the ultimate goal of which was emasculation in the truest sense, masculinity in black men might now be very strong, fierce even...and maybe a touch rigid, inflexible. At the margins it might be exhibited in hyperbolic displays of potency, but even at its most mainstream, black masculinity would carry with it, in response to the oppression it endured, an inviolable sense of dignity. Respect would be the watchword, insisted upon at all times. As for the masculinity of the most vulnerable, those without fathers and masculinity’s truest exemplars, their masculinity might be so fragile, and their need to be men so desperate, that it might become warped, distorted, inflamed, so much so that they might not only insist upon respect, but enforce it at the end of a gun. The ramifications are endless...

Which brings me to my main point. A not-insignificant part of masculinity (some would say the whole point of it) is that it defines itself largely in terms of and in relation to its complement – femininity. (Necessary disclaimer: these notions of masculinity and femininity are of course gender constructs, but they are no less real for it.) So basically, in everyday language, these notions of gender leads us to think that the sexes are in some sense made for each other, not only biologically, but psychologically and emotionally as well – in effect, that part of what it means to be a man is to be attracted to women, and part of what it means to be a woman is to be attracted to men. And despite the well-deserved success feminism and the gay rights movement have had in weakening this sense, it still persists in some form, even today, and especially when it is given religious support and sanction.

So to sum it up: if many black men, for the best of historical reasons, have an especially fierce, proud, and perhaps unbending notion of masculinity, we shouldn’t be surprised if this includes the sense that “real” men are attracted to women, and that any man who isn’t is a sissy, a “fag”, and not a real man at all.

If homophobia in the black community runs deeper, I think that’s why.

(For more on the historical part of this, check out Orlando Patterson's "Rituals of Blood.”)

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Reality Man — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:43:13 -0000

Dammit, I made a new gmail account just for commenting and the stupid Atlantic servers keep on forgetting it even when I check that "Remember personal info?" box.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Reality Man — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:42:02 -0000

"This whole notion that blacks are more anti-Semitic, anti-Hispanic or anything is hogwash. It may be because I live in Ohio, but I have just started hearing about this since the primaries. Must be a big city thing.

Posted by Rainy | August 13, 2008 8:15 PM"

There does seem to be a special class of pundit that seems to delight in minorities and marginalized groups fighting against each other. On the extreme end with hate groups, they get to connect, for instance, wealthy Jews to black drug dealers in an anti-white conspiracy theory to justify their own racism to themselves. However, more moderate conservatives take part in this also for what I can only guess is bigotry coupled with the motive to keep one's demographic group's monopoly on power.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Hector — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:42:07 -0000

Moe,

I agree with you that Haitians, African-Americans and Africans are all very distinct culturally and it's somewhat demeaning to group them all together. Nevertheless, in the mind of the racist a Black man is a Black man, and so I would not be surprised if African Americans, Caribbeans and African immigrants all felt they had something in common in terms of being the targets of racism. That is why the New York African-American community was so annoyed about the shootings of Mr. Dorismond (a Haitian) and Mr. Diallo (a Guinean.

The lie that AIDS originated among Haitians as a result of bizarre Voodoo sexual rituals did not originate out of thin air. It was originated by specific people for a specific, and contemptible, purpose.

As for my personal feelings, I'm agnostic about the moral status of homosexuality (i.e. have not made up my mind.) I do feel however that given the strong biblical and patristic witness against the pursuit of "strange flesh", the advocates of its moral liceity have a strong prima facie case to overcome. That does not mean it's impossible however.

Fred, you're correct, I was going on a vague remembrance of some statistic from the 1980s. The rate of AIDS in Haiti today is extremely high. Nevertheless, at the time that the "AIDS is from Haiti" lie started this wasn't true.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Rainy — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:15:56 -0000

Why does everyone assume that homophobia is somehow worst in black communities than it is in any other poor or wealthy community in this country. Is is just because some blacks are more vocal about their contempt? Just go down south to any middle class neighborhood and you will find just as much homophobia as in any other socially conservative group. Blacks are historically, socially conservative (that's because a large portion grew up in church), but the majority only vote for Democrats. This whole notion that blacks are more anti-Semitic, anti-Hispanic or anything is hogwash. It may be because I live in Ohio, but I have just started hearing about this since the primaries. Must be a big city thing.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

MoeLarryAndJesus — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:53:26 -0000

Hector writes: "One might also note that during the beginnings of the AIDS epidemic back in the early 1980s, representatives of the gay-rights movement were quick to deny that any responsibility for the epidemic belonged to a (small) hyper-promiscuous subculture in the San Francisco and Manhattan gay communities. Instead, they neatly shifted the blame to Haitians and Africans. Ignoring the fact of course that Haiti has traditionally had a lower incidence of HIV than the United States. I would not be suprpised if that completely cynical picking on a group that was too poor and weak to respond has done much to poison relations between African Americans and the gay rights lobby."

Come on, Hector. That's an absurd argument that also implies an alliance between Haitians and African Americans that doesn't exist. It's also blowing up the comments of a very few gay "representatives" way out of proportion.

I think when you make comments like this - especially on a new blog - you should probably also note that you're religiously inclined to despise homosexuality, which we both know is true from previous discussions.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Fred — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:51:30 -0000

Hector,

"Ignoring the fact of course that Haiti has traditionally had a lower incidence of HIV than the United States."

Haiti may have had a lower incidence initially, but after Haiti became a popular sex tourism destination for American gays in the early 1980s, that changed. You may be too young to remember this, but folks actually went to Haiti on vacation back then.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Tom B. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:28:10 -0000

There seems to be a lot of speculation with very little data to back it up. While the premise of a "welath gap" is rather plausible, the utter lack of data leads to some pretty condescending generalizations. Just because a wealth gap makes sense, doesn't mean that all wealthy people have a healthy attitude towards homosexuality. The example of "I know some well educated, well to do black people who are still homophobic" can be greeted with just as many anecdotes of wealthy white people who are homophobic. Money isn't the cure-all to what ails society. The plural of anecdote isn't data.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Hector — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:19:33 -0000

One might also note that during the beginnings of the AIDS epidemic back in the early 1980s, representatives of the gay-rights movement were quick to deny that any responsibility for the epidemic belonged to a (small) hyper-promiscuous subculture in the San Francisco and Manhattan gay communities. Instead, they neatly shifted the blame to Haitians and Africans. Ignoring the fact of course that Haiti has traditionally had a lower incidence of HIV than the United States. I would not be suprpised if that completely cynical picking on a group that was too poor and weak to respond has done much to poison relations between African Americans and the gay rights lobby.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Amitav — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:15:49 -0000

T and room,

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. Sounds like there are a few hypotheses:

1. There is more acceptance of homophobia in poor urban black communities than society as a whole because poor people in general are more likely to be homophobic regardless of race.

2. There is more acceptance because black people regardless of income are more likely to be homophobic because

(a) many black churches (i) promote or (ii) condone or (iii) do not denounce homophobia and/or

(b) there is a black cultural bias against gays possibly stretching throughout the diaspora back to Africa.

1 seems logical-- is there any good research out there? 2a may be true, but as people have pointed out, it doesn't immediately seem clear why it should affect blacks more than other Christians-- but then, maybe it doesn't and it's just that blacks have higher rates of church attendance? (Any research?)

2b troubles me because I think cultural explanations are usually pretty weak. However, the recent split in the Anglican Communion led by African churches on the issue of gays supports that idea somewhat. On the other hand, South Africa has stronger constitutional protections for gays than the U.S., so maybe anecdotes are not the best way to approach this issue.

Thanks for the insights and perspectives.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

AG — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:08:06 -0000

As far as I can tell, the biggest factor in homophobic prejudice is a) how religious someone is and b) how much their religious upbringing/environment speaks out against gays. Race, class, and gender are pretty much irrelevant.

You can find arguments condemning homosexuality that don't invoke some scripture or "God's will," but I'm willing to bet that they are in the minority. On the other hand, maybe my perception is skewed by the fact that most high-profile bigots tend to cloak themselves with religious authority, e.g. Falwell, the Pope, Dobson, Robertson, Phelps.

Mm, okay, maybe just the ones that annoy me the most.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

SpottieOttieDopaliscious — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:25:01 -0000

I make this point all the time. Unfortunately, most of the pundits never leave the coasts, so they are spared the full weight of lower-class white ignorance. Suffice to say that no race has the monopoly on prejudice and it tends to correlate inversely with the level of education and wealth in the community being surveyed.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Sybil — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:12:12 -0000

I agree that this is linked to poverty and education and is probably seems true in urban communities where large openly gay populations intersect with poor black religious communities, but my experience working with HIV patients has led me to believe that health care workers with similar education and income may be more likely to be openly homophobic if they are black--I think there is just as much homophobia in the white health care workers but they are more PC about it. Thinking about patients of mine who have been on the "down low" it clearly is linked to religion and part of the country people are from more than race. I think those of use who live in the affluent urban north have no idea how radical our lack of outrage over the "homosexual agenda" seems to the rest of our country.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Reality Man — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:03:07 -0000

"Class has nothing to do with it. The African-American community as a whole is homophobic, regardless of their income. Based on our religious traditions and our historically social conservatism, we are not yet at the point of fully embracing gay rights."

I've wonder about this too. The problem is that there is no real metric we can use to measure sub-cultural and societal measures of the degree to which a particular form of bigotry is held, so we end up having to use proxies, such as stated support for gay marriage. Even polls asking for the percentage of people who self-identify as a bigot don't tell us much because many bigots aren't willing to self-identify as such. We end up just trading anecdotes, like arguing over whether Northern or Southern whites are more racist towards black people, with no way to ever prove a broader point.

I would say for my generation in my experience, it does seem like educated African-Americans (both the descendants of West African slaves and the children of African and Caribbean immigrants) and even African international students who have come here to study, are rather supportive of gay rights and have close gay friends. Thinking about it now, I would say though that the black people in my social circle also tends to skew disproportionately towards women, which may explain part of it.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Fred — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:41:39 -0000

I'm not sure why. Do you disagree that black male attitudes toward masculinity are entwined with black views on gayness?

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

shani-o — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:32:56 -0000

nolo: thanks for the info. By the by, "whackadoo" is an awesome word.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Persia — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:25:11 -0000

The black community has also had fewer 'official' institutions they could rely on, socially. The police, medical establishment, etc. have not historically covered themselves in glory supporting black people.

NealS, those attitudes persist among 'smart,' educated white people too, though. My overwhelmingly white and white-collar workplace has had a few rumored kerfluffles over openly gay people on staff. I'm not sure how you can quantify homophobia to figure out who's 'worst' in this regard-- not sure it's helpful, either, though it's good conversation fodder.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

BlackWomenBlowTheTrumpet.blogs — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:21:05 -0000

Hello there!

Thank you for this discussion!

As a cleric, I have encountered blatant homophobia, classism, sexism, transphobia, black bigotry, black misogyny...you name in...all within the black church setting.

The black church represents ALL that is within the black community...those who enter the black church (for the most part) are products of the black community and all of its dimensions and dynamics.

I have heard all of the scriptures tossed at gays and lesbians but the reality is that we NEVER have any Biblical grounds for espousing hate. There is no scripture ANY ONE can show me that justifies hatred towards others.

I believe that homophobia is tolerated in the black community because there are very narrow definitions of black masculinity (rooted in phallocentricity) that are accepted within the black community.

Thanks for blowing the trumpet!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!

Lisa

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

nolo — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:20:12 -0000

shani-o, Rod Parsley came to mind because I'm an Ohioan, and Rod Parsley's been a big player in Ohio politics. He's the head of a nondenominational megachurch in Columbus and has a tv show that runs on a number of national cable stations as well. He also was a big force behind the successful 2004 campaign to put an antigay marriage amendment in the Ohio constitution, and the not-so-successful campaign to get right-wing whackadoo Ken Blackwell elected as governor in 2006.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

shani — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:10:41 -0000

You can use that observation of geographics/demographics to explain many stereotypes about poor black people. Quite honestly, many black people need to consider this as well. We stereoptype ourselves far more than anyone else.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

BelleIsa — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:02:58 -0000

Coming from a West Indian background, I find that West Indians are far more homphobic then black Americans.

I think the black church does a wonderful job of promoting homophobia, mostly through refusing to address it that exists, but not through traditional interpretations of scripture.

I've been to churches where the Pastors will address pregnancy, death, throw around profanity, but won't aknowledge the male choir director who everybody knows is almost certainly, gay.

This conversation has been largely focused on gay men. I've seen lately, in NYC urban areas, a large population of lesbian couples, who exist seemingly unscathed by homophobia. Anyone had the same experience in their cities?

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Jay C — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:01:38 -0000

From my perspective as a gay man, I've always had the sense that the GLBT community feels stung more by the homophobia of the African American community than by that of society as large. Since we're both "Other" (for reference, I'm gay and white), there's a feeling I get from the GLBT community at large that we should be working together with other "Others" to push for our respective equality. Thus, the experience of homophobia at the hands of another group outside the mainstream feels particularly biting.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

NealS. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:59:42 -0000

Class has nothing to do with it. The African-American community as a whole is homophobic, regardless of their income. Based on our religious traditions and our historically social conservatism, we are not yet at the point of fully embracing gay rights. Though, as a 29 yr old, it may be a generational thing.

I know several well-educated, well-to-do Black folk who think homosexuality is "against God." I will never forget when Virginia had on the '06 ballot an anti-gay marriage ban on the ballot. I tried to persuade my educated, affluent aunt not to vote for it. I used the historical value of the Declaration of Rights, and that it would be the first amendment to restrict freedom rather than to advance it, etc. etc. Her response, "This is about God's law--not man's law."

And don't get me started on the patent homophobia in rap lyrics (paging 50 Cent!) or the role of super masculinity in our culture... in any event, my point is clear.

Our people are the biggest homophobes in America.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

Green — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:59:17 -0000

I completely agree that differences in homophibia would largely correlate to the wealth gap and frankly I think you could probably correlate the Black community being "more churched up" with the wealth gap as well, but I do suspect there are some other things at play. One I think is the prevalence of AIDS in the gay and black communities and questions around how much it really moves across those lines.I dont know that this actually drives homophobia in the Black community but I do think that it shines a brighter spotlight on what homophibia there is in there- Think Oprah on "down low" brothers, etc.

Another is that when you look at the diaspora as a whole many of the other black subcultres you'd find in say East New York (e.g. afro-carribeans, first generation africans) you have a group of people who are from my personal experiences disproportinately more homophobic than traditional "African-America" black people.

Robert- having lived in both urban areas and extreme rural areas, I've found that outright homophobia, racism, sexism, and all the other 'isms are prone to be more "in your face" prevalent in rural areas. It's lack of exposure I think.

Re: Ask and I shall answer: Black homophobia

frankie d — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:54:03 -0000

black communities have always been incredibly schitzoid in its attitude towards and treatment of gays.

while there have always been very obvious and prominent homosexual members of any black community and those members are simply accepted for who they are, there is no question that there is a real strain of homophobia that surfaces.

as a kid growing up in detroit, there were obvious and out men and women. everyone knew who they were and they were just part of the community. as individuals, they were accorded their place.

however, if they had to be considered as part of a larger community, asserting certain rights, then the response of the community may have been very different.

i think that is partly the dynamic that is showing itself with the rampant and virulent homophobia in conservative black churches.

what is hilarious about that phenomenon is that everyone knows that a good percentage of those deacons and church elders in those conservative churches had a thing for boys, also. the history of church scandals had more than it's share of homosexual dalliances.

ahh...prejudice creates all sorts of contradictions....